Mini 927: Alabama Correctional Facility - OVER

[HackerHuck]

Yea its just like complicated voting. Random shoving doesn't hurt anything."

This is pretty wrong. Unless we end up bunching up people together, it gets progressively harder to move people up or down the list the more we do it.

[HackerHuck]

Ok, maybe I just figured out what you mean. Is it that the current shove ranking is only given a value of '1' in weighting against the new shove order? Here's what I mean...

Hacker Huck - 7.3

Hacker Huck 8

Hacker Huck is now 7.7 - =round((7.3+8)/2,1)

Hacker Huck 11

Hacker Huck is now 9.3 - =round((7.7+11)/2,1)

That seems like it's pretty easy for one person to really manipulate who gets lynched.

[HackerHuck]

Just to be clear, the higher the number, the closer one is to the end of the line and possible death, right?

[HackerHuck]

Screw shoving, I'm going to vote first and shove later. Votes might not mean anything, but their easier to keep track of.

vote: Spyrex

[HackerHuck]

SpyreX, you fail to see the point.

First off, I'm not entirely sure that you're correct so it's not helpful to keep random shoving in case it is an overall average. Secondly, a whole bunch of useless shoving does harm the town because we don't get a good idea of who is scummy. You're arguing that random shoving doesn't put anyone in any danger. Random voting kind of works because it can start wagons. Without that kind of a mechanic, random shoving just fills the thread with noise and we're not really going anywhere with it. That's a pretty crappy way to find scum.

[HackerHuck]

It definitely absolutely positively is not an overall average. DGB's second shove count proves this beyond all doubt: that count is the mean of Minineko's, Spyre's and my first shoves, and Elli's second. It doesn't take Elli's first shove into account at all. (Not to mention the fact that it would be a really bad modding decision to make it an overall average, since I could just shove you to 12 and copy and paste it ten million times and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it, except shove me to 12 ten million and one times. )

Umm, the way you guys are describing the shoving mechanics means that you could still do just that.

So DGB's latest line ranking (i.e. vote count) becomes the single data point. Then any shoves that follow become data points in calculating the average for the next ranking posted by DGB. All that means is if you shove 12M times after a line ranking, your data points would overwhelm all others and essentially become the new average. I know that if I'm at the bottom as we approach deadline, I'll be looking to make 12M posts with me at #1.

Or is it that each person's most recent shove is the only one that contributes to the new average?

All of your estimated rankings are nice and all, but we still haven't received any confirmation from the mod that you guys are right.


Lets try doing some scumhunting, rather than filling pages with random shoves and setup discussion.

Hey Cobalt, why did you choose to daykill (or pretend to daykill) SpyreX?

[HackerHuck]

Oh yeah, I'd still like to see how the spreadsheet works if you're open to publishing it. That will make it much easier for me to understand.

[HackerHuck]

Ugh, I still don't get it.

Shove:
1. UncertainKitten - 9
2. Minineko - 4
3. Ellibereth - 10
4. Jahudo - 8
5. SpyreX - 11
6. Max - 2
7. farside22 - 5
8. HackerHuck - 1
9. Super Awesome Mega Pimp! - 3
10. Cobalt - 12 (must have lied about his daykill)
11. pwnman - 6
12. Grimmy - 7

[HackerHuck]

Anywayz, Hacker, how is asking Cobalt about a blatantly fake daykill scumhunting?

If I thought it were blatantly fake, I wouldn't have asked about it. Even Spyrex seemed to have some doubts about.

I honestly don't see how we're getting anywhere with all of this random shoving. It appears to have hurt me now, because I haven't been pushing myself up to the number one slot, so I'm right near the bottom.

[HackerHuck]

I think I just had a moment of clarity.

So is the shove order just the simple average of each person's most recent shoving action. I was just making this way more complicated than it is.

So the impact of a person shoving is not so much the order of their shove, but the relative change from their previous shove order. I imagine that most people focus on their top and bottom two or three, so getting a lot of mid-range rankings likely means that there will be no read. This is pretty interesting stuff, but I still don't think that all this random shoving is doing us any good.

Ellibereth and Kitten - why do you have SpyreX so high in your order?

[HackerHuck]

HackerHuck 10 - Is vocal against random shoves, but most of his shoves on post 96 have no reason. Kinda scummy.

My comments were directed toward truly random shoving - no reasons at all. I was trying to place Cobalt at the end of the line and me at the beginning of the line based on my suspicions. Since I'm on the fence about most everyone else, I was just trying to "normalize" the order by inverting the current ratio. I'm most likely not going to have a specific reason for why I chose to locate each person in their particular slot.

This type of "voting" can make it easier for scum to manipulate positions, so I suggest that we evaluate where a person ends up in the average after someones shove, not so much where they put that person in line.

[HackerHuck]

I'm most likely not going to have a specific reason for why I chose to locate each person in their particular slot.

Even the scum slots? 1-7/8/9 I can understand, but not 10/11/12.

Taken in context, you should have understood what I meant. I will have reasons for some of my votes, but not all of them.

Since I'm on the fence about most everyone else, I was just trying to "normalize" the order by inverting the current ratio.

This doesn't feel right. Who does that invert shoving help? There can't be a lynch until the end of two weeks. If you are truly on the fence about everyone else, why are you using your own power to help a specific group of people?

How is using my power to help a specific group of people any different from anyone elses shoves? By bunching everyone in the middle I'm not sure about in the middle, it makes it easier to move someone further up or down if I decide whether they're scum or town.

I think you need to look at these shoves as a form of consensus lynching. Basically everyone is coming up with their ranked scum list and whomever is deemed scummiest by the most people should rank near the bottom. It's very clear when you only do that with maybe three or four potential scum, but when you look at the entire town, it can be easier to fall near the bottom even without being the "scummiest". Look at Goofball's excel sheet in post 104. Minineko doesn't even land in the bottom three, yet three people have her ranked at the very bottom of their lists. That's more 12s than anyone else has. Looking at my votes, if Grimmy just changes my rank from a 5 to an 8, I would then be at the bottom of the list. That's how scum can influence these things without being obvious.

[HackerHuck]

Pwnman, can you respond to post 152?

He also paraphrased your comment on me. Or if it wasn't yours, it was someone elses.

I'm not much liking Mega Pimp and SpyreX on the last couple of pages. Cobalt and pwnman seem OK to me

[HackerHuck]

Pwnman, can you respond to post 152?

He also paraphrased your comment on me. Or if it wasn't yours, it was someone elses.

I'm not much liking Mega Pimp and SpyreX on the last couple of pages. Cobalt and pwnman seem OK to me

^^^ Ridiculously Scummy post now.
Who would say that pwnman looked "OK" when he was acting irrational and absolutely ridiculous? Oh yeah, that's right! Scum, who would know he was town.

Reshoving.

^^^ Ridiculously Scummy post now.
Who would say that pwnman was scum without a second thought when he claimed? Oh yeah, that's right! Scum, who would know he was town, but wouldn't recognize anything from his claim.

[HackerHuck]

I'd much prefer to see a Hacker lynch after those shenanigans around pwn.

Shenanigans?

[HackerHuck]

11. HackerHuck (the one reason you stated was lurking, but Id like to hear more reasons than that)

He's kinda lurky.
Also, in his last shove order on the 19th, he rates SAMP at 3, me at 11, spyre at 10. Then two days later he says he finds me OK and SAMP scummy. Without reshoving. Looks to me like he wants to weigh down people without needing to answer for suspecting them. Also reacted poorly to my fake daykill.

Well, I actually had voted you at 12 for your fake daykill. I did change my mind, but should have reshoved. If you recall from reading my posts, my post order was (except for you and me) in reverse order of the rankings at that time. I've actually softened on SAMP as well. I'd prefer to knock off either Ellibereth or SpyreX.

Shove:
1. UncertainKitten - 9
2. Minineko - 5
3. Ellibereth - 11
4. Jahudo - 8
5. SpyreX - 10
6. Max - 2
7. farside22 - 6
8. HackerHuck - 1
9. Super Awesome Mega Pimp! - 4
10. Cobalt - 3
11. Grimmy - 7

[HackerHuck]

What is all this inversion stuff? Can't people just post the lists from highest town read to highest scum read?

We're not going to make it easier for your partners to figure out who to nightkill.

[HackerHuck]

What's this we? You have a mouse in your pocket?

Actually, was this talk of inverting anywhere? Or did both of you just happen to do it around the same time?

So you think it's a good idea that we all claim who we think are the towniest?

[HackerHuck]

Ellibereth's case on me is that I'm scummy for recognising that pwnman had the same role that I do.

Shove:
1. Slicey - 4
2. Minineko - 11
3. Ellibereth - 9
4. Jahudo - 7
5. SpyreX - 8
6. Max - 2
7. farside22 - 5
8. HackerHuck - 1
9. Super Awesome Mega Pimp! - 10
10. Cobalt - 3
11. Grimmy - 6

I'm only moving Minineko and SAMP down to try and save my own skin.

[HackerHuck]

HackerHuck - post 171 why would you think someone who is paraphrasing what another player said is okay?

I never said it was. I think I explained why I felt pwnman was town. In fact, you allude to a similar reason at the beginning of this same post.

Slicey/ UncertainKitten - post 203 for UK comes dangerously close to OMGUS. If I see a PM from a player and I reconize what it says in my PM why would I assume scum has that as it's safe claim?