Open 204: Friend and Enemies Over

[Excedrin]

Vote: McGriddle

Why haven't you voted yet?

Obv scum, lets get more votes over heah thanks in advance.

Mindgamer, why is it boring to play w/people you know?
discoroboto, do you like techno?
don_jonnson, what is your view on lurkers?
pwnman, how experienced would you say you are?
light, why do you identify with a criminal character?
paltryexcuse, explain your avatar.
water_foul, what would you do if I voted you?
kunkstar7, do you usually turbolurk?
farside22, what's your opinion on day vs night start for this setup?
hewitt, do you prefer RVS or attempting to get out of RVS as soon as possible?

[Excedrin]

So you're saying it's good to play in a reactive way instead of active.

It's fine to lurk in the shadows and STRIKE when the time is right.

Yea, you know who lurks in the shadows?

Serial killers. Also Werewolves.

Vote: kunkstar7

[Excedrin]

@Excedrin: You both RV'd and made questions for all. Do you prefer a RVS or a RQS?

I don't prefer either. Why does it have to be one or the other?

Mindgamer, why is it boring to play w/people you know?

Quite the opposite. It's fun to play with people you know. Why? I don't know, that's just the way it is. Counterquestion: Why would it be boring to play with people you know?

I agree with you. With players you know, you start to gain meta and get wifom'd based on meta, which makes it interesting. That doesn't really happen with unknowns.

I agree with this and it only does good for the mafia. The mafia knows who isn't mafia so they can kill indiscriminately and the town doesn't get any information out of it except if the mafia got lucky.

How does town get information if mafia gets lucky?

My apologies everyone, for some reason every time I tried to reply it sent me back to the home page, not to mention half of the time I couldn't find the game lol.

Why apologize?

@Everyone: what is the best way to get out of RVS stage?

my answer: Usually I find something to fight with someone about even something minor.
Here's an example: Why did Excedrin vote for McGriddle for not voting when he didn't post in the game at that point?

Best way is an early wagon.
Does a random vote have to be logical? What do you think about McGriddle's reaction?

It's obvious that you are getting scumtells just because you disregard the context. How do you get out of RVS if there's nothing to talk about?

Is disregarding context more of a pro- or anti-town behavior?

[Excedrin]

Not Voting (4): hewitt, Light, McGriddle, water_foul

Why aren't you participating in RVS?

[Excedrin]

McGriddle,
Why are you talking about doc/cop at all?
Do you realize the setup we're in?
If someone claimed doc or cop, we'd likely lynch them instantly in this setup.

There isn't always logic but saying someone didn't vote when they didn't post and then he doesn't vote when he comes on I have to wonder about it.
I hate people that has my opinion and not post one of there own it looks like wanting to see a case so you can put forth a vote.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

[Excedrin]

excedrin: Your asking my opinion of mcgriddle while not giving one of your own. I find players asking others view points are scum motivated as why would anyone town ask another player their view point on a player they havent' said boo about.

It's odd that you're putting so much emphasis on a random/joke vote. Also, I already said that McGriddle was obvscum, it would be lucky if my random vote landed on scum tho.

Serious note, my thought about McGriddle's response was that it's slightly defensive when there's no reason to be. He didn't reply with anything to advance the game.

Do you think that all opinions should be shared at all times? Would a constantly updated scum/town list with reasons be a good idea?

[Excedrin]

farside22, it was a comment with the same weight as the vote. Looks like selective reading on your part.

oh missed the first question, I am asking in order to get a read off of him, why does anybody ask a question?

Role related questions are usually a bad idea. Hypothetical questions kinda suck in general, town and scum can easily answer them in the same way. How do you think scum would answer your "PR claim" question vs how would town answer? Would scum honestly say, "Oh, I'd counterclaim and call for hammer!" I don't see the value.

pwnman, why do you like playing mafia?

Light, have you played non-forums mafia before, IRC/Chat or in person?

[Excedrin]

Light, have you played a game where the setup is mostly vanilla? If so, how do you find scum when there's no cops, vigilantes, doctors etc to help you find scum?

[Excedrin]

You asked my view of McGriddle then you say here after I said I don't like giving people reads of others without seeing their view first. Your saying your obvscum was your comment but it wasn't serious.
Which is it. Is it that you think mcgriddle is obvscum or you don't have a read on him?

When I voted McGriddle, my (random) vote had a (joke) reason behind it.

excedrin: Your asking my opinion of mcgriddle while not giving one of your own.

This is false: I asked only what you thought of his reaction, not for everything you thought about him. Secondly, I had stated an opinion even if it wasn't serious (stating an opinion doesn't have to be serious in order to get a reaction).

Your saying your obvscum was your comment but it wasn't serious.
Which is it. Is it that you think mcgriddle is obvscum or you don't have a read on him?

I've stated pretty clearly what I think of McGriddle's reaction (admittedly, after asking your opinion). Beyond that, how would it be possible to have any read when I posted my McGriddle vote?

To answer my own question, the only reasonable read would be timing based, that McGriddle's "slow" confirm and first post could indicate that he was talking to his scumbuddies.

[Excedrin]

look, a game without any special roles given to the townies, i believe would be stupid. if there were no special townie roles, this game would be more of a guessing game than a deciphering/strategical game which i love.

Um, no, without power roles you have to strategize and decipher on a deeper level, examine what people say why they said it and what they're trying to do. So the point is, how are you going to find scum by playing passively and waiting? Maybe you already know who's scum? If so, please share your info.

I agree with this so does any one get any scum vibes from any one else or should we exert pressure randomly?

What do you think?

I just want to know how I am obvscum, other than scum pointing out flaws in my questioning...

Scum are pointing out the flaws in your questioning? So, you're saying that don_johnson, farside22, hewitt, Excedrin and maybe water_foul are all scum (did I miss anyone)? If not, then who specifically that pointed out flaws in your questioning is scum?

DiscoRoboto unvoted hewitt after his attack and is now empty posting about being bored.

It would come to bite the town AND me in the ass later.

So you're not part of the town?

Unvote; Vote DiscoRoboto

[Excedrin]

Your "AND" is a minor point, do you have any response to the rest?

[Excedrin]

DiscoRoboto unvoted hewitt after his attack and is now empty posting about being bored.

Basically, you're not contributing at all.
I could add to that that after post 116 you've shown extreme defensiveness, self-preservation and concern with how you appear.

[Excedrin]

What's there to really contribute at this stage of the game from my side?

Scumhunting.

There was individual squarrels but nothing else.

Then make something else.

It's better to at least show that I'm reading by posting, then to ignore this completely like some other peeps?

Active lurking is much scummier than flaking or actual lurking.

About the blabla after post 116, I'm just angry about the response to something so silly. The comments are just ridiculous.

Sucks to be caught as scum over something so simple, right? Does that make you angry?

[Excedrin]

Scumhunt with this amount of information? I was merely seeing if someone was going to say anything mentionable.

Your idea fails the "what happens if everyone does it" test. What do you think scumhunting is, apparently lets just not vote, form no opinions, wait for deadline and nolynch?

Make something else? Discussion about things that matter only happen if someone says something remarkable (which is often something scummy) are you telling me to sacrifice myself to get out of the RVS?

You've said a lot of scummy stuff so far, mostly in response to my vote and questions, why haven't you asked any questions or voted? Do you have any opinion about who's scum?

Active lurking? No, not really.

Yes really. Your play has been exactly the definition of active lurking.

and at the last comment... HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. Funny guy.

Do you see everything about this game as a big joke?

[Excedrin]

Vote: Excedrin

for jumping Disco for using "AND" as an attack on Disco, even though he had all this (BS) info on me. He also goes for the easy lynchee, and as soon as a bandwagon begins he seems to hop on it right away, rather than just question and leave his vote out.

So, my vote for DiscoRoboto is bandwagoning? Did I repeat PaltryExcuse's reasoning for his DiscoRoboto vote? Why do you see DiscoRoboto as an easy lynchee?

Why do you think it's better to leave your vote on someone else after your top suspect changes?

"for jumping Disco for using "AND" as an attack on Disco, even though he had all this (BS) info on me." What does this even mean? As I stated in a response to DiscoRoboto, I voted based on his active lurking and the fact that he's generally not playing the game. That he sees himself separate from town is suspicious, but it's a minor detail. I also note that you haven't explained your "other than scum pointing out flaws in my questioning..." statement.

[Excedrin]

Your idea fails the "what happens if everyone does it" test. What do you think scumhunting is, apparently lets just not vote, form no opinions, wait for deadline and nolynch?

The 'what happen sif everyone does it' test? What kinda test is that?

If everyone played like you, then scum would win every game. Why? Because they can sit back and watch people posting youtube links until deadline, then kill whoever they like. Pretty simple.

You've said a lot of scummy stuff so far, mostly in response to my vote and questions, why haven't you asked any questions or voted? Do you have any opinion about who's scum?

Why havent i asked questions or voted? No good questions to ask regarding people and (like I said in my other game) I'm not really that quick to vote.
opinion about who is scum? No read atm.

How experienced are you at mafia?

Please point me to a place where an universally accepted definition of active lurking is stated.

Active Lurking Wow, I've never seen "I didn't do that because I disagree with the definition!" used as an excuse before.

It's better to at least show that I'm reading by posting, then to ignore this completely like some other peeps?

Maybe this post could be added to the Active Lurking entry on the wiki.

Everything? No. The town atm? Yes.

The town is a big joke, haha I'm misleading them and watching them run in circles, lolol this will be easy.

I'm not playing the game? I beg to differ, sir. I bet I have more posts then many a player in here.

You have no read on page 7 and basically zero posts that are designed to find scum. So, yea, you're not playing, you're active lurking. Postcount isn't much of an indicator.

Besides, I thought we already established that the 'and' was not a means to differentiate myself from Town in terms of allignment.

Why are you focusing on a minor point instead of doing anything to actually help find scum?

[Excedrin]

How experienced are you at mafia?

Eh look at my wiki. I don't think this is relevent to anything atm though. I don't get reads on games that bore me.

It's relevant when you're playing the noob card as hard as you are.

I'd rather have people actually show that they're reading. I'm not gonna fluff post, that's even MORE annoying then not posting at all.

But you are

fluff

posting. When I read you in ISO you've posted nearly zero content.

LOL, I never said that I disagree with the definition, why are you saying that? That's twisting my words. You MIGHT see this as an OMGUS if you will, but I don't care, this is just scummy: Vote: excedrin

So you admit to active lurking? How is it scummy to interpret what you wrote the way I interpreted it?
1. You say, you're not active lurking
2. I say you are
3. You ask for the definition
Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Excedrin]

Why havent i asked questions or voted? No good questions to ask regarding people and (like I said in my other game) I'm not really that quick to vote.
opinion about who is scum? No read atm.

Seems like you're playing the noob card, "I have no good questions to ask, I don't vote quick, and I have no read!"

Why'd you bother to signup for this game if you're not interested? Why not ask for a replacement?

[Excedrin]

Those questions aren't exactly scumhunting are they?

I think I've elaborated on the 'noob card points' that you gave me.

Yea, they are, the point is, there's no justification for your behavior.

In either way, yeah I do ridicule. I don't in later stages, but if you want me gone before that, go ahead and try to convince everyone.

So you're not getting a replacement? What makes you so confident that you'll be alive in "later stages"?

[Excedrin]

how does one defend against constant accusations of "fluff" posting?

Perhaps by posting something useful? Stating an opinion, directing attention to something questionable, asking questions or getting into an argument etc.

the only place to cast suspicion is on ones attackers or on lurkers, both actions which can then easily be twisted into "scumtells" by lynchthirsty scum. i think disco is handling things just fine.

What do you mean by "ones attackers or on lurkers?" Why are those the only places to cast suspicion?

+ 1 scum point for water_foul for poor posting.

farside, if you have a question then ask away. i am not getting much of a town vibe from excedrin at this point.

183 seems chock full of good observations.

But you get a town vibe from DiscoRoboto?

It's better to at least show that I'm reading by posting, then to ignore this completely like some other peeps?

How can I admit to active lurking now that I've made all these posts?

(I've made) Zero posts that are designed to find scum. Like the lurkers here.

I bet I have more posts then many a player in here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gHcHBTvXdE

Also,

The way to get out of the RVS is to actually discuss something, ask questions about things people say. Ask ask ask. If nobody says questionable things, stay in the RVS until somebody does.

Scumhunt with this amount of information? I was merely seeing if someone was going to say anything mentionable.

Make something else? Discussion about things that matter only happen if someone says something remarkable (which is often something scummy) are you telling me to sacrifice myself to get out of the RVS?

Active lurking? No, not really.

and at the last comment... HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA. Funny guy.

Do you see the contradiction?
I read this as: We should ask questions and discuss stuff to get out of RVS, but there's not enough information to scumhunt yet (since we're still in RVS), therefore my behavior is acceptable.

[Excedrin]

lurkaking, I don't know but it merits a vote either way, whether it be to lynch him or get him active in here. I know he acted when he was scum in the other game i played with him in, and it's the same as now.

Do you have any thoughts about players who are present and posting?

It seems like you dropped the idea that everyone who found problems with your cop/doc questions is scum.

[Excedrin]

So you're not getting a replacement?

Why would he?

Because he's not interested in the game. See his posts 30 and 32 in iso (and 1 and 17).

[Excedrin]

well I saw it as panic with both your votes DJ.
I think he baited a trap to caught a reaction from DJ.

farside22, what was scummy about don_johnson's reaction to DiscoRoboto's post? panic only?

I think I read it differently.

I only see mafia gaining out of this universally bad idea.

So it's anti-town, but is it actually scummy? I'm having a hard time finding any motivation for it.

It would provide information for mafia.
Btw guys don't think that was a claim.

This is ridiculous, if you do something that seems extremely unusual (like softclaiming mason) then say "brighter minds among us will see what I'm implying... you're the biggest moron I've ever met, lol" I guess everyone's stupid, so please go ahead and explain. It's also worth noting that don_johnson and farside22 and hewitt have explained why it was a scummy thing to do and you continually say, "Still waiting for someone to explain how my action was a scumtell."

It was (partly) a fish for reactions. If you want to know more about Don's role, look more closely at his posts.

Why would I want to know more about don_johnson's role?

unofficial vote count:
hewitt (2): pwnman, DiscoRoboto
pwnman (1): McGriddle
DiscoRoboto (3): Excedrin, hewitt, don_johnson
Light (2): PaltryExcuse, kunkstar7
don_johnson (2): Mindgamer, farside22
not voting: Light, water_foul

[Excedrin]

I will explain if others agree with it, but with your guys sceptical view on me right now my logic will probably not be accepted

The simplest explanation, that you're scum trying to out masons, seems most likely, but it's so blatant

Why are you delaying your explanation so much? Why post "well my logic won't be accepted" when you could have just as easily posted "I thought X, Y, Z" or whatever.

[Excedrin]

Why are you voting for hewitt again? You were already voting for him.

Also what happened to, #247 "I don't think scum is dumb so I'm not going to vote Hewitt."

[Excedrin]

excedrin post 193: I note that you did not mention disco's RVS comments as your earlier issue with him. Why not?

It takes time to see if someone's going to make good on their presumed approach to getting reads and figuring things out. DiscoRoboto hasn't played according to his own advice.

I still don't see how don_johnson's reaction to DiscoRoboto's post is scummy. You quoted post 225 and say "panic" is scummy. I'm not sure how post 225 even reads as panic. What's the connection between the two quoted posts? What's the important bit that you're seeing that I'm not?

Also, it's worth noting that your explanation of DiscoRoboto's post became his explanation (see my post 262). And he still hasn't explained at all, it's weird that he's not in your scum list.

[Excedrin]

how so? townies don't get frustrated?

townies get frustrated but from going to hey all is cool and right to stating you want to replace after Disco's comment. That's one comment. That doesn't look like town frustration at all comment. I've dealt with the like's of empking thru many an argument now that's frustration.

So frustration isn't scummy. OK. Note also that everyone has their own limits.

What part of his post seemed like panic?

I had almost the same reaction that don_johnson had (I wasn't as frustrated), I don't think his reaction is scummy at all and his frustration seems genuine.

[Excedrin]

Did you not even read what I wrote? You quoted it. I said going from cool to I wanted to replace based on one person is scummy.
Are you saying DJ's reaction looks normal?

I read what you wrote, so far it seems like you're unable to explain why don_johnson's reaction makes him certain scum (it seems like that's your belief).

What is normal? His reaction seems reasonable and genuine. Given that, the only reason for him to post it as scum is to introduce WIFOM. As town, he'd post it without considering the effect it would have simply to express his frustration. It doesn't read like panicked caught scum to me.

[Excedrin]

I explained it just fine. I even showed Dj's post and what Disco said. That doesn't not equal fustrated town at all.

lol, maybe statements like this one are why I don't follow your explanation.

[Excedrin]

Light, what do you think about all of this? Are you still playing at all?

[Excedrin]

Another unofficial vote count.

hewitt (2): pwnman, DiscoRoboto
pwnman (1): McGriddle
DiscoRoboto (5): Excedrin, hewitt, don_johnson, Mindgamer, kunkstar7
Light (1): PaltryExcuse
don_johnson (1): farside22
not voting: Light, water_foul

I don't think he's L-1 unless I miscounted that's L-2.

[Excedrin]

Light, sorry I didn't realize you were V/LA earlier.

... give me shit to analyse then.

What do you think about the farside22 / don_johnson / DiscoRoboto situation?

[Excedrin]

unofficial as always

hewitt (1): pwnman
DiscoRoboto (3): Excedrin, hewitt, PaltryExcuse
don_johnson (2): DiscoRoboto, McGriddle
McGriddle (4): farside22, don_johnson, kunkstar7, Mindgamer
not voting: Light, water_foul

I forgot to check MS for a couple days. Earlier I read the 2 games that McGriddle posted as meta for his read on pwnman (why hasn't pwnman been replaced yet?). I agree with the premise that his play in this game doesn't seem like his town play, but I'd really rather lynch DiscoRoboto.

We should make a list of the top 2 or 3 lynch candidates and find out who's willing to vote whom in order to avoid a NL. My preference is as I've said and I'd also be OK with a Light lynch, where'd the wagon on him go?

Pwnman hadn't been replaced due to my absence, but I am working on his replacement currently.

[Excedrin]

and no. you might not be his partner.

you might just be scum pushing another mislynch. or you might be misguided town.

i have seen plenty of times where scum defended town hard on day 1. i am not linking to a game where this happened and i refuse to argue about it.

IE: I don't have a link.
Please look to DJ after today. He has refused on 2 occasions to link to anything that remotely proves any theory he has.

Wow.

Way to hold someone to an impossible standard. Even if DJ provided links to completed games with a positive result, it's never clear that his idea made sense or not. Why are you tunneling on DJ's "theories" more than DiscoRoboto's absurd and unjustifiable play? As far as I can tell he can't explain why he does anything, but because don_johnson has explained his thoughts, you're holding it against him. That's a double standard.

It'd be nice if farside22 and don_johnson issue(s) could be set aside, I think scum are likely coasting while town argues.

Who are the players who need replacement? It seems like, pwnman, Light, water_foul? I'm not sure since after the long night and delay I haven't checked if everyone's posted.

[Excedrin]

DiscoRoboto and coasters/flakes/lurkers. Though I'm starting to think DiscoRoboto is just severely VI. Kinda need replacements to be able to continue.

[Excedrin]

Really why would you do this Disco?

cba to defend right now. i've breadcrumbed the other mason like over9000 times already i think. im ok with exce or waterforl or dj.

What pro-town reason is there to do this?

boredom.

You should have asked for replacement. It seems like mafiascum isn't for you, and that's OK.

[Excedrin]

And yours is not also a baseless opinion? You're just voting me because i apparently don't post when im not being voted on.

I should let PaltryExcuse continue this, but did you just answer your own question?

I am defending myself when im getting voted on by you
Yeah, "analyze the game". Im more interested in analysing you and hewitt.

This is the first time you've mentioned hewitt. The only thing that seems off about hewitt is that he's always agreeing with me, but beyond that there's nothing suspicious about his play. Please elaborate on your hewitt suspicion.

Please explain what OMGUS is. (Serious Question).

OMGUS is short for "Oh my god you suck." Basically it's when someone has no suspicion of anyone else and they're voted only because they were voted. Bob says, "Alice you're scum because of X, Y and sometimes Z!

*Vote Alice*

" and Alice says, "No you! I'm so town it hurts, since everyone can see I'm 100% town, you're obviously scum trying to mislynch!

*Vote Bob*

"

See http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Omgus

[Excedrin]

Here's the QT http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/Rd5fiDF9DYGNE

This game seemed extremely easy for scum, I figure we could get at least 2 more mislynches based on DiscoRoboto/Light and maybe don_johnson.

BTW, I read the 2 games someone linked as a meta reference for pwnman and McGriddle seemed obvtown (unless he just improved his play a ton). As scum he was obviously concerned with his appearance, as town here he was like "well I don't know anything and I don't care what you think"

[Excedrin]

lol

[Excedrin]

I did it to confuse the scum mainly, and partly for a reaction fish.

1st part obviously didn't work. This kind of thought almost never works. (I'm not sure if you saw the QT where you're at the end of the possible mason list)

[Excedrin]

Ah, still can't edit. Anyway, DiscoRoboto, you should try a noob game before you give up on Mafiascum, the level of play here is very different from most other forum based mafia.