Mini 928 - Bloodlust Mafia Remix - Over!

[julienvonwolfe]

Nice to see you again too, Civil Scum. What are the chances of meeting you and a player named Cyanide two games in a row? It's going to be deja vu.

Oh, and Suave. This game's going to be amazing.

I nominate Haylen for day one lynch since if she's SK she'll probably win.

[julienvonwolfe]

Vote: Civil Scum

for obvious reasons

[julienvonwolfe]

Mindless self-bandwagoning. My favourite.

Actually nope.

Unvote

Vote concerned

cause i have a meta on him

Is this a random vote couched in joke reasoning, or a real vote designed to provoke a reaction and therefore provide you material to compare to this meta?

If the latter, what of it?

[julienvonwolfe]

/reading fail

never mind, I just read 52.

unvote, vote: fifi

because she's self-voting and not playing with any degree of seriousness. "Hey guys, it's all fun and games rite rite rite?"

[julienvonwolfe]

how long does the RVS have to last? When people start unvoting and changing targets is my idea of when it's time to end it.

Can you explain why playing nice and joking is not scummy in itself? That's the main reason that I voted you. I accept that self-voting is merely anti-town and incredibly annoying, not scummy.

[julienvonwolfe]

Fifi, I voted for you since by not being serious one could argue that you were trying to buddy up to just about everybody, which I consider scummy.

Also, was your vote in the RVS or not? You've just said that you self-voted for a very thorougly thought-out reason, which is certainly not random. Yet before you told me that it was simply an RVS fun vote.

[julienvonwolfe]

Okay, so you figure you'd get a reaction from self-voting. Of course you would, since it's a bloody stupid thing to do. What, can I ask, would you expect townie players to do, if you expect scum to always do what I did? Should the other people on your wagon, assuming they're town, have said to themselves "hmm, he is self-voting. This is obviously a gambit designed to catch scum, and therefore I will treat it as not suspicious," or what?

So, now you can do the work and prove to the others why voting for somebody who self-votes is scummy. A statistical analysis or some metagaming would be ideal, otherwise it's just an unproven theory with nothing to support it.

As for your saying the vote was masked as an RVS, that's not what you said when you said this: "You jumped on the wagon acusing me of being funny, and not serious. In my opinion the RVS had not ended." This contradiction causes me to get the sense you're just squirming around at the moment.

---

ConfidAnon, what exactly about Fifi's point do you agree with, and why?

[julienvonwolfe]

Honestly, I find the accusation that I say things to make people look bad really annoying. Am I supposed to find scum by making them look

good?

Anyway, I'm not so concerned with Fifi right now. As town, she's wrong (from my point of view, of course, since I can read my role PM - I understand that the rest of you cannot) but I get the sense that she is too stubborn to back down and admit she might be wrong. Which is fair enough, since sticking to your guns in mafia is often useful. As scum, of course, I'm not sure that she would back down once in this position, either. In any event she's so hopelessly tunneled on me (and as Civil Scum alludes to, this sort of thing is bad for town) that going any further would be useless.

More interesting at the moment is ConfidAnon, who jumped on Fifi's reasoning with a seemingly wanton lack of critical thinking.

julien

, this:

Vote julienvonwolfe for trying to make up a reason to mask his true reason for jumping in the wagon. Being scum.

Your reasoning that you attached to the vote seemed off to me. Almost as if you were trying to hard to have a reason for your vote.

On a side note: I don't think that self-voting is suspicious . . . It's not good play, tbh, but it's not a serious scumtell.

What about 'buddying up to everyone' is trying too hard to have a reason for my vote?


And Fifi -

Bold 1 - Really? So anytime i say anything, i am suposed to give you links to something like statistics or articles or metaing to prove it?

Bold 2 - Could you do that statistic /meta thing about what you said? Otherwise that is wrong and can't be used, because people are just variables like x and y, and everyone reacts and plays the esaxct same way (irony).

1. It helps if you have a strong reason to suspect you're right, other than an unproven theory. Mafia is mainly a game of psychology. Psychology is a science.

2. If you clarify exactly what you wish me to find some statistics in support of, or meta for same, perhaps I could. I would certainly try.

[julienvonwolfe]

Alright, explain how I have a "wanton lack of critical thinking" and the following quote:

What about 'buddying up to everyone' is trying too hard to have a reason for my vote?

Are you trying to say that I've been buddying up to everyone?

No. If you read my 66, you will see that this was my main problem with Fifi, not you. My vote is on Fifi, not you, which makes your thinking I'm referring to you here quite strange.

Why did you think I was voting for Fifi, seeing that you missed this?

[julienvonwolfe]

can you link to past games that show this?

[julienvonwolfe]

Fifi, please do post the link to that game. I think that I need meta on you. (I do think that at best it's useless to say that you play identically as town and scum if you can't show that you do.)

Honestly, I find the accusation that I say things to make people look bad really annoying. Am I supposed to find scum by making them look good?

No The things you pick on and the way you do it make you look bad too. Evidenced by your lynch last game.

As I remember, that lynch was due to a bad statistical analysis of my interactions wtih somebody else that was supported by scum, plus a drunken hammer. Meanwhile, that day, I had managed to be suspicious of both scum, remember?

[julienvonwolfe]

@ Civil Scum & ConfidAnon: can you tell me where you think I've been trying to blow things out of proportion and make them look scummy (to paraphrase)?

@ Civil Scum in particular: okay, so you think the last game was a disaster and don't wish to take any of the blame for yourself. I can handle that. Can we move on?

@ Sandman: RQS = Random Question Stage

@ Suave: no, that's a gambler's fallacy, or did you know this?

[julienvonwolfe]

You know, you said something similar in the last game we played together, Haylen, and I made the mistake of letting it go.

Of course you then won as SK.

[julienvonwolfe]

@ Dr Cyanide: I have thought over your position regarding the RQS and think that it doesn't make a lot of sense, because if you were really serious about us having an RQS stage in this game, I would have expected that you would have initiated it earlier - or even, in the post where you suggested it, actually started it off. RQS questions only have to be random, it doesn't take any special quality to create them.

This then makes me wonder if you think that perhaps there was something in the game going on that you wanted to stop short in its tracks? The Fifi questioning, perhaps?

Alternately, you are town genuinely concerned with the way the game is going, in which this post could do with some expanding:

Why do you assume that the conclusions we draw will result in a mislynch? And what else do you suggest?

I think its too early in the game to be closeminded. In fact, I don't see the point in being closeminded ingame fullstop. We're supposed to be scum-hunting, not attacking anything we can find, diluting the situation further. This was a weak-based argument that is just cluttering up the thread.

Could you rustle up some posts from early in the thread and explain precisely what you find to be closeminded and anti-town about them? I find 'cluttering up the thread' arguments to be pointless, since the thread's going to be 30 - 60 pages or so anyway; what's another few posts?


@ Civil Scum: having meta on you as I do, if you were to take a step back from Dr. Cyanide and take a look at other players, what might you say? I ask this because we are aware of your views on Cyanide, his views on you, and it appears to be getting to the stage where mutual dislike seems to be overruling objectivity.


@ Haylen: Stop being useless, seriously. A player who's been around as long as you should be able to offer some better insights. If you need some pressure to help you get your act together, I'm actually finding you more scummy than Fifi right now.

unvote, vote: Haylen

[julienvonwolfe]

oh, and I probably won't be around until Monday/Tuesday, shifting houses.

[julienvonwolfe]

Dr. Cyanide, I can't reconcile your explanation that you were acting like a nutcase on purpose with your posts, which don't seem to be designed with that intent in mind.

Or is this the bit where you are trying to see who will attack the shit out of you?

[julienvonwolfe]

unvote Haylen

When I have more time (after class tonight), I'll go through the thread properly and decide who I want to lynch.

[julienvonwolfe]

My top 3, Fifi, Suave, ConfidAnon. Some things on them that I don't think I've posted before, starting with Fifi.

Interesting posts from Fifi regarding meta (bolding mine except in Haylen quote, where it is Fifi's). Mostly it's a subtle hypocrisy tell:

HI concerned =)

Greetings , ironically when I saw your name I thought that it was good I'd have a scum-meta on someone, and then I remember you were actually town and I was just dead wrong... lol

-.- lol concerned. I tought something similar. "

I have a town meta here

^^".

I have only one finished game, so i can't link you to other games and give you info about my alignment in them. but i will link you to my first game here if you want,

altough i am a lot diferent now, since i gained a lot of experienced

Your first vote was Totally RSV? ok then, i can go with that. For now...

unvote

.

There isn't scum-fifi or town-fifi. i play always the same way.

Sometimes with more attention, sometimes with less, but that depends on the mood and not the alignment.

I personally, would not like a Haylen lynch. You see where im coming from here?

I think it's pretty funny that Julien find me scummy cause I'm acting the same way as I did as SK.

You do realise that I've been informed of my meta recently and have completely switched my metas around in a what I call Operation Mind Fuck.
Would you like proof of this?

Holy Semita, would you like to explain why you want to lynch me, CS?

This totally looks like you are really trying to hide your alignment form us.

--

Acting a little friendly aren't we?

(at Fifi and Concerned)

it may be weak, but still... you post the game where you were town, but didn't you say earlier that you think you have probably changed your playing style? you've set up a lot of WIFOM, like "if you were scum, you would try to look like your town game you linked us to so we would think you are scum." stuff like that =___=. also telling people that you calling yourself town is a town tell is pretty fishy. that line alone makes you seem scummy. >=( FOS:fifi

Again, Fifi. It's probably not coincidence that two of some of Suave's rare posts where he bothers devoting any attention to the game concern being suspicious of the same player. I tend to see it as scummy rather than town persuing a case since both reasons that Suave gives are rather idiosincratic and weak, thus avoiding any suspicion of hopping on a wagon. Makes me think scum buddies, in conclusion.

---

ConfidAnon. Like, seriously, the guy's contributed nothing and hasn't posted in a week.

Mod: prod ConfidAnon?

---

Finally, as to which to vote...

vote: Fifi

Hypocrisy as listed above, tangled reasons for self-voting, meh. I'm not too sure but it's the best I can go for. Also gives info about Suave, and ConfidAnon can be dealt with through prods for now.

[julienvonwolfe]

@Julien :

Fos

here. a big one. Look into julien last post with attention later on the game. Mr suave is a hardcore lurker and aattacks me. Therefore, he can't be scum pushing for a mislynch, but of course my scumbuddy. You think scum lurkers would draw attention to buss their partners.?

WIFOM, buddy.

And yeah, he may be scum pushing for a mislynch, though he's not really pushing is he?

Julien, I don't get the last part of your post. You think fifi and suave are scumbuddies because suave has two halfhearted attacks on fifi?

It's a weakish theory mainly based on the fact that Suave has done almost nothing else of note.

[julienvonwolfe]

This game is seriously sucking for town, what with the no lynch day one (admittedly partly my fault since I wasn't around) and the quick lynch day two (like what?)

I should make it clear at this point that I don't really understand the concept of a pro-town cult leader. I had thought that this would become clearer as the game unfolded, but nope. Are the cult third party or pro-town, and if they're pro-town, how are they different to normal townies?

It's nearly midnight here so I can't make a great post right now, but I want to express disatisfaction with Suave. I have played before with him and he has very effectively played like a newbie to hide his being scum. He's not a newb at all any more and yet he still acts a bit like one, which makes my hackles prick up.

[julienvonwolfe]

Vote julien

. Thats exactly scum strategy. Roleblock me, and turn town against me, making them doubt my claim and go for a mislynch.

And

fos

at suave for you bussing him.

You're jumping to conclusions. Since we're basically at endgame (9 players remaining; 5 town, 3 mafia, 1 SK?). how about giving us more details of your role? Who have you recruited? This would be of immense value in narrowing down the field of who's scum and who's not.


@ LF: I'm not voting because I feel at close-to-endgame we're in a slightly precarious position. Can I ask your feelings on Concerned, please? In particular, regarding this post:

OK with less than a day remaining and in light of fifi's claim there's very little doubt in my mind that Dr Cyanide is our best lynch, there might be a case for DrSuave and Haylen in terms of anti-town behavior but in terms of who's the scummiest at this point Dr Cyanide wins.
- His weak arguments.
- His overly-defensive reaction to civil's pressure.
- OMGUS's civil, then OMGUS me for good measure.
- Extremely weak defence (I still don't get why "you're making an assumption about what I meant", is a valid defense)
- Defending fifi in his madness.
- Acting like a nutcase to see who cotton's on? Yeah right, backtracking because you realize you've acted scummy is more like it.
- Asking fifi to recruit him is a small thing, but dodgy in my book, trying to get fifi-town to kill himself perhaps?

Therefore

VOTE : DR.CYANIDE

However I have my eye on Civil as a manipulative scum type with a couple of his last comments:

vote: cyanide
Or you all are his scumbuddies

Look, I'll lynch either Fifi or Cyanide. But only on the condition that the one we don't lynch is lynched tomorrow, no questions asked.

He's only being manipulative if Cyanide flips town of course so I shall have to see. I like his aggressive active style though so it would be a shame if I have to pursue this.

[julienvonwolfe]

@Julien - I said i ve been roleblocked. Both nights.

/\ Makes Fifi look bad. I suppose we need to wait for counterclaims to Suave, though, before we lynch Fifi. I'm not counterclaiming.

[julienvonwolfe]

And LlamaFluff os totally distancing from my wagon after i flip town.

Fos

*sigh*

Im trying to get the point accross that it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to be scum unless...

vig tried to kill CS night one AND
vig tried to kill NK-immune SK night two AND
SK tried to kill CS or fifi each night

People are ignoring the overwhelming evidence that you are town, and if I have to just repete it again and again I will if thats the only way to get the point accross.

Damn, you're right and I missed the fact that scum could have a roleblocker.



Back to square one for me, at least. More later.

[julienvonwolfe]

okay, well I was trying not to get myslef killed for sure tonight, but whatever. I'm incharge of the jail which makes me the JK; I RB fifi last night, and I RB CS on N-1. so there you have it. BAM

Why fifi and CS?

This is a good question, btw.

[julienvonwolfe]

God, I RB CS night one because I was prodded to pick my target(I had forgot I was a JK) and CS just seemed like a good idea. I picked fifi N-2 because it was just a random choice. I was just trying to RB mafia and get a no kill at night, or maybe save someone. But really, there is no reason to my madness

Nitpicking a bit but I'm not sure I like your usage of the term 'RB' - roleblocked - since your claimed role also has an element of protection. Why protect somebody you thought to be mafia?

[julienvonwolfe]

If there is no counterclaim for a JK...then the only way Suave's isn't legitimate is if there is a Vig.

What I was actually trying to arrive at with my question before is that to me, Suave sounds like mafia roleblocker trying to claim townie jailkeep.

[julienvonwolfe]

okay, well I was trying not to get myslef killed for sure tonight, but whatever. I'm incharge of the jail which makes me the JK; I RB fifi last night, and I RB CS on N-1. so there you have it. BAM

Yeah, you claimed pretty obviously in the post fitz was pushing you on.

Im not countering.

Call me dense, but can you give me the exact post number? I'm posting quickly before class and can't find it.

It's interesting to me because I would quite like to see whether Suave was trying a sneaky soft-claim to gauge town reactions.

[julienvonwolfe]

what exactly do you see that's wrong with it, Fifi?

I'm okay with a massclaim.

[julienvonwolfe]

And LlamaFluff os totally distancing from my wagon after i flip town.

Fos

*sigh*

Im trying to get the point accross that it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to be scum unless...

vig tried to kill CS night one AND
vig tried to kill NK-immune SK night two AND
SK tried to kill CS or fifi each night

If massclaim shows no vig, then suddenly Fifi-scum becomes much more plausible.

If somebody

does

claim vig, we can match them up with Suave's jailkeeps and the nightkills to see if their claim works out. My gut feeling is that it won't, since there is no doc in this setup.

[julienvonwolfe]

I'm not sure how active TeWuicah is. He's gone quiet in the game I'm modding.

Mod: Prod TeWuicah?

[julienvonwolfe]

Im pretty sure I can claim not-vig for JVN for him, but his turn then concerned

vanilla town, yes.

[julienvonwolfe]

at the case on me: I think it completely misinterprets my intent in iso 13 and 15, which were intended to pressure Cyanide, not the other way around.

I admit that my history of suspicion (Fifi and Suave) is not good, though surely this can be tempered with how they've played.

I will try to have more tonight - I have class until about 4 pm or so.

[julienvonwolfe]

Thinking more about fitz' case on me, he accuses me of mainly targeting people we know to be innocent (Suave and Fifi).

Yet he has himself spent much time voting for Suave, he voted for Darkstrike day one (and would have on day two), and FOSed Fifi. This makes him seem hypocritical to me.

Llama, you seem to think I'm scum. I'm not completely sure why, though. Can you explain for me?

[julienvonwolfe]

I responded to your other point about Cyanide, and your point about my lurking is shit because lurking isn't a scumtell (I thought we were past newbie games).

Your point about my vote being on confirmed townies is your best one but even then it's not good as I'm fairly sure that it's not uncommon for one townie to vote for two other townies during day one. It's just coincidence here that both turned out to be innocent despite their play.

[julienvonwolfe]

I responded to your other point about Cyanide, and your point about my lurking is shit because lurking isn't a scumtell (I thought we were past newbie games).

I’ll drop the Cyanide point...it was just the intial read I had when I read those parts of your ISO. As for lurking...I never actually accused you of lurking, I just pointed out that you had a 12 day absence without reason. But since you brought lurking up....is it a scumtell when it’s active lurking? You seem to have had plenty of opportunities in this game to continue making posts while you were away from this one. Is that point is shit?

Your point about my vote being on confirmed townies is your best one but even then it's not good as I'm fairly sure that it's not uncommon for one townie to vote for two other townies during day one. It's just coincidence here that both turned out to be innocent despite their play.

I’m pretty sure it’s not uncommon for scum to vote townies on D1 as well. My point was...on several D1 votecounts that in hindsight were on townies...you were on them. And with 3 scum (4 counting the SK) still in the game, I can not imagine that a wagon on town with 2 or more players does not contain scum...and knowing who on the wagon is town (from their flops and claims) and who I think is more likely to be town...leaves you. I could be wrong but the things that strike me as scummy have been pointing me your way.

Sorry for the delay. Busy time for me RL.

Regarding that game; my policy with this site is that if I post on one game, I post in all of my games unless I am unable (eg. it is night). I think the reason it looks like I have posted there and not here is simply due to it being night in this game.

Regarding your last point, I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by discussing your case on me any more, because it sounds like you're pretty set. Nevertheless, you're wrong. Why don't you reconsider those wagons and who's scum and who's not, etc, with the assumption that I'm town? It'd be more useful to town than tunneling on me.

As for who I think is scum...

there's a 2/3 chance from my point of view that one of the following list of people is anti-town:

2. Mr.Sandman
3. almightybob
4. Concerned
5. dramonic
10. Havingfitz
11. LlamaFluff

Going by gut, Llama rubs me the wrong way. Fitz is pushing a case on me that I know to be on a townie, so gets slight scum points for that (though the 'townies can be wrong' point that I brought up earlier applies here in his defense also). Dramonic/Wuicah, Concerned and Sandman have all flown under the radar. Bob seems town to me for some reason, but on balance his voting record is not great and the only really pro-town thing he did, leading the massclaim, isn't much of a pro-town tell.

All in all, I think Dramonic and Llama are scummiest.

Dramonic: I don't like TeWuicah's weak-ass FOS of darkstrike. It screams scum trying to push a lynch along without being on it, to me.

Llama: He's either really into-it scum or into-it townie. There's a slight contradiction in the way he votes Sandman for not taking hard stances, and then admits that he goes back and forth on Sandman.

I would like everybody else on the list above to chime in about their thoughts of whether they would be willing to lynch either. There's a 50% chance that either of them are scum and a somewhat smaller chance that they're SK, so looking at the stats and judging will make it interesting.

[julienvonwolfe]

but I can't put my finger on it

Indeed! While logically Sandman is a good lynch, I would like to hold off until at least a few more questions get answered:

Bob, Llama and Fitz: Out of you three, one is scum and likely more. Which of the other two would each of you lynch over the other, given no other choice?

The same question to Dramonic, Sandman and Concerned.

[julienvonwolfe]

Ah, I see what you mean, though it is more useful for the other people.

It is interesting that you and fitz would both lynch Llama, but not Sandman. Can you tell me what in particular about Fitz' play you like?

[julienvonwolfe]

You posted in your other game...during your 12 day absence...when it was not night in this game. Seems kind of active lurkish to me.

Okay, my bad. You're stretching the definition of active lurking, though.

I'm sure if I really had to I could make a Town-fitz case, but I don't really see the benefit.

So you think fitz is town. Out of curiosity, given that you've said Sandman, Dramonic and Llama are scum, who is more town: Concerned or I? I would be very interested in your answer given that you have said that you have town reads on

both

he and I in your iso 40. Sure that's a mildly old post, but it's not so long ago, and nothing major has happened in the game that I would think would make you change your mind considerably. I hope you can understand why I am unimpressed.

However, reading through, you have very little interest in Concerned in your posts. Your last post to me looks like "come on scumbuddy, hammer already."

To make sure I'm not seeing things here I would be grateful if a few more people would chime in with their picks for who else besides them is a townie in our list of unconfirmed.

[julienvonwolfe]

Okay, I really would like an explanation of why you have a good town read on Concerned. Your play with Llama strikes me as being suggestive of scum-distancing, and so the way you both say of Concerned that he seems kind of town despite everything is interesting. (the idea being that it's kind of semi-distancing)

I'm not so impressed by your test of scum hesitant to bus, either, given that you act as if Sandman's guilt is proven. Not the attitude I want to see where town risks losing control of the game - lynch a townie today and it's four vs three vs one, which kind of sucks.

[julienvonwolfe]

I knew something was up with the Sandman lynch! Bah.

Good game and well played, scum.