Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[Ellibereth]

I can only see those from using the quote button...

[Ellibereth]

here we go

Kise... This is stupid.

You're bringing up topics from pages back to get discussion. Scummy? Yeah.

If you'd care to re-read, which you obviously don't because you're scum, you'd see that there's something called CONTEXT:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... start=1450

Here is a quote about what it is:
"con⋅text  [kon-tekst] Show IPA
–noun
1. the parts of a written or spoken statement that precede or follow a specific word or passage, usually influencing its meaning or effect: You have misinterpreted my remark because you took it out of context.
2. the set of circumstances or facts that surround a particular event, situation, etc."

just since you apparently didn't know.

anyway, you'll see that this quote of me came from when Budja came into play. He said he saw everyone but one (Ojanen) as scummy. I say "Yeah, that's the same as with me in D1. Albert, who i saw as obv-town, and flipped mason, was the only one i trusted."

Hope this clarifies.

[farside22]

I fixed the DLA issue

[Kise]

Mr. Freeze: "DLA....chiiiill."

I guess it's context. Not bothering me at the moment since I just remembered there's no way you can be scum. I'll post something later today. This is more anti-proddish.

[Ellibereth]

Mr. Freeze: "DLA....chiiiill."

I guess it's context. Not bothering me at the moment since I just remembered there's no way you can be scum. I'll post something later today. This is more anti-proddish.

I dunt get it.

[dramonic]

The Thirtisixth Votecount: Final Effort.

No Lynch (1): Kise

Not Voting (3):Kise, Ellibereth, Ojanen

With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

Get active, everyone wants to see the finale! I'm going to instaure a deadline soon

[dramonic]

that non-voting Kise should be DLA, thanks to ABR for the notice

[Ellibereth]

Okay. Would DLA have bussed/distanced Serial on his own at the beginning on D2. Probably not. My main worry right now is that Serial told DLA to bus him. Ugh.
Kise, why is there no way DLA can be scum?

[DarkLightA]

Kise, please extend on that statement.

I've got a theory, but I'm holding it until after your post.

[Ojanen]

Anti-prod; should have ideas layed out by tonight.

OJ, were you intentionally searching for the mason?

Not actively, I never went searching for the breadcrumb you were referencing for example. Elli was just a thought that came at the time and made a lot of sense.

Kise, why on earth did you vote no lynch after mason claim stuff happening?

Could you answer this?

[Ellibereth]

Kise, please extend on that statement.

I've got a theory, but I'm holding it until after your post.

I have a theory too.
Youre wonderfulyl confirmed town is going to wait for you guys to go first though/

[Kise]

@Elli - DLA HAS to be town based on lynching SC the other day, combined with his all-over-the-place-ness. I can't imagine bussing being a hand in hand trait with a player like him.

@OJ - To see if who I think is mafia was waiting to figure out the last mason before they made a nightkill. DLA wasn't being productive as it was. One day he hates someone, the next day he loves them. One minute he's not sure who scum is and votes no lynch, the next minute he's made a town list and scum list. One minute he wants a draw, the next minute he doesn't. Kinda wish he rode with me calling him the mason so we could in fact see whether he'd be killed or not. The plus side of that would be that he's not the mason and we'd have Elli to confirm himself so things could be easier.

Unvote

Stay tuned. I'm digging some links up.

[Kise]

Hmm. Actually share your theories first, then we'll do some talking (o rly?), then I'll vote.

[Kise]

@Elli - DLA HAS to be town based on lynching SC the other day, combined with his all-over-the-place-ness. I can't imagine bussing being a hand in hand trait with a player like him.

Not that I'm trying to offend you or anything DLA, but I think I can read you perfectly. If SC was your partner, I see you more as the type of person who would have kept him alive. That, on top of how you felt about Neto earlier in the game.

[DarkLightA]

Why aren't you voting for Ojanen, Kise?

[Ellibereth]

I could see Serial telling him to bus.
Wiaitng for Oj.

[Ojanen]

Sorry, was delayed with everything and I'm sick for the nth time this winter; the content will come in 12 hours or so after I wake up tomorrow.

[Kise]

Because I'm waiting to hear your theory and don't want to give you any help/influence so that we can see you concoct an original idea, and applaud you if it's nice. It may have been pretty obvious who I will vote for, but still. Show me what you got, including why you believe I'm scum and why you believe OJ is town. My

case

will be simple.

[Ojanen]

I've been trying to write out this post for a while now. I'm sorry, I can't do as much as I wanted right now. I'm aarghingly sick again, and tomorrow is quite a big day to me that needed a lot of preparation.
I wish I had an easy answer but from the time I've managed to scrape up to review things, I don't yet.

Serial normally does not like to bus, he thinks it's powerful but he doesn't like doing that to his teammates. That would point to DLA over Kise. I'm a bit worried he could have had a different mindset (stage a fight) here due to always carrying so much suspicion.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it might seem overly dramatic to you, but I've played this entire game with the dagger of damacles hanging over my head waiting for it to drop.

The sentence is slightly oxymoronous, but scum does often mix true feelings to text.
What worries me about Kise is that despite the very mutually suspecting language between him and Serial, Kise never ever votes Serial until the hammer, he goes off to hewitt slot the whole day.
He mentions the point he later votes hewitt for in his very first content post - the whole situation with Neto and L-1, then proclaims that SC is almost certainly scum and sees himself as pursuing Serial hard, and they fight, but then goes back to hewitt vote for original content post reasoning, and talks a couple of times about voting Serial (in the lines of "player x, would you vote Serial with me") but doesn't actually convert until end. And the wagon situations don't really explain that to me.
Serial does not return that favour though; he goes for Kise, and doesn't switch when the opportunity is first offered to him on a silver plate - elli asks what he would think on lynching hewitt instead of Kise.
First fluffs

I think kise is the better lynch, but possibly because I've been pushing him for a long time. I'd be up for a hewitt lynch if the consensus was to he was scummier than kise though.

But then, when Kise brings up older points again,

Part of the motivation for me wanting to lynch Kise over Hewitt is that he's constantly bringing this sort of stuff up that is old and dealt with. Rather than asking DLA, why don't you either a) read my comments directly after that where I show my reasons why that case isn't a good one, or b) actually go do the work yourself rather than calling DLA out to back up a case he made weeks ago.
So I know it's not a good reason to lynch one person over another, but every time Kise posts I get exasperated and I'm SURE it's coming from scum. I get what you are saying Elli, but at the moment there is still more support for a Kise lynch and I think it's a better one for me, so that's where I'm staying for now.

Which would be quite extreme bussing coming from Serial - the situation at that time was
SerialClergyman (1): DarklightA
Hewitt (2): Kise, Elli
Kise (2): Ojanen, Serial
Not Voting (3): Farside, Hewitt, Scigatt

Of course, in the end he switches but at that point it's not a momentum-sensitive point anymore.


What worries me on DLA - well, no real aggression from Serial, and Neto's quasi defence has some similarities to treatment of CSL, and obviously I was totally wrong on what that meant so I dunno.
The Budja hammer is iffy, his only post of the day, unsure but sure rhetoric with quickhammer.
(Kise goes with the flow too though - first he seems to think I have less credit than Budja but then he votes Budja without much prodding)
He pursues Serial early D2 actively, thinks he's obvscum, then switches.
It's really hard to follow his thought processes, an example

I'm inclined to continue my pressure on SC.

vote SC

I still have my money on SC.

I don't know.. I still think SC is a better bet than Kise.

I actually think SC might be town.. Neto defended him a bit too much. In that case, there may be a scum who has fooled us all..

unvote

changing one's mind is normal but he's really impenetrable as to what the triggers are, Neto obvdefending Serial was a huge part why he thought Serial was scum all along and then bam. (he does go back to Serial after this episode, through a Kise vote first)

I've thought DLA was relatively townish all game and thought Kise was scummy all game. But I've had a fair share of wrong calls lately, quite distrustful of the value of those reads now.

Talking about the draw earlier and not going after me doesn't seem scummy from DLA, which has me scratching my head.

Ok this post is quite useless since it just highlights me fence-sitting argh and some meta monster might enforce the idea from that that I'm scum.
I haven't had enough time to really relook at the thread to make what I would consider an informed call yet but I layed out some thoughts now since everything seems to be hanging from waiting for me at the moment. I've erased and rewritten this sentence now several times, stating which one of them I'm leaning more currently, but I basically should just admit I am not sure atm. I could simplify to this: gut leaning more Kise, head leaning more DLA.

@OJ - To see if who I think is mafia was waiting to figure out the last mason before they made a nightkill. DLA wasn't being productive as it was. One day he hates someone, the next day he loves them. One minute he's not sure who scum is and votes no lynch, the next minute he's made a town list and scum list. One minute he wants a draw, the next minute he doesn't. Kinda wish he rode with me calling him the mason so we could in fact see whether he'd be killed or not. The plus side of that would be that he's not the mason and we'd have Elli to confirm himself so things could be easier.

I don't really understand.
After me and you claimed not mason, you outed what you thought was a DLA mason breadcrumb, and then voted no lynch. You think I'm scum so you tried to catch me then by me trying to go for no lynch despite having explicitly spoken against that+mason claim just a bit earlier?
Or you wanted to get rid of DLA who seemed too erratic for you?
You'd actually wanted DLA to fakeclaim, when you seem(ed) to think he's town anyway, with a mason faced with a choice whether to counter?

[dramonic]

Deadline is the 24th. Get to lynching each other already

[Kise]

I just remembered another thought I had when voting no lynch. Notice how Elli has been viewing you as scum OJ? Remember when I voted for you and then DLA threw a FOS onto me? And today, see how he thinks you're up there on his townlist? That on top of him possibly being a confirmed mason heading into tonight would be interesting to see come tomorrow. If you're scum and you killed the

only person who thinks you're town at the moment, you're screwed. It would be suicidal to kill your only supporter

just because he's confirmed town, so if he got NKed (and flipped mason), I would have had suspicious thoughts about Elli because

I don't see [you as] scum leaving themselves with 2 others who'd vote for them.

Regardless of who's scum, the only logical choice for nightkill would be DLA or no-kill again. If no-kill, my suspicion would stay on you OJ. But if DLA -- your only supporter -- was killed, it would be stupid of you as scum to do that and actually could have made you look better. I myself can't think of a reason why anyone else would be nightkilled, even though I wonder about farside's death. But of course I was under the belief that Elli wasn't the mason. After he confirmed it, I was a little confused, and pissed because of how many free passes I was giving DLA based off thinking he was mason. It's neither here nor there but I wish Elli kind of rode with it before confirming himself. On the flipside, DLA dying and flipping vanilla would still make you look town OJ and me more so scummy, I would say.

You'd actually wanted DLA to fakeclaim, when you seem(ed) to think he's town anyway, with a mason faced with a choice whether to counter?

Ninja what? I never expected DLA was faking or anything. Elli asked DLA if he was the mason, so I took that as Elli in other words saying he wasn't mason himself. With you and me claiming not to be mason, I felt right in believing I saw a genuine mason softclaim from DLA earlier.

To my credit... with me believing that DLA was mason ever since he made that post a long time ago, why would I

A)

kill farside instead of him when she was also someone who thinks you're scum, and

B)

why wouldn't I kill him last night instead of submit a no kill? It'd make more sense for me as scum to take out someone I thought would claim mason down the line. That looks to be why DedicatedScribe got killed -- SCum said they felt he was mason.

You've bought yourself a lot of time already and I guess deadline is around the corner.

[Kise]

Meh. I was going to link to the posts where I go over Ojanen but just iso me, or hopefully you have been paying attention to my posts.

Vote: OJanen Simpson

Day 1, OJ posted her scumreads and voted Neto without even mentioning why she felt he was scummy in that same post.

SC is cool with it

and he tells people not to lynch Neto until OJ can write another post about her scummers.

OK.

But KittyMo posted her scumreads with Neto at the top (same as OJ), tells everyone not to hammer until she can post again,

yet SC feels the need to ride my ass all game about it

?

Wat?

Kitty and OJ practically did the same thing. You have a meatier post, OJ. Sure. But that's due to explaining who you felt was town,

not

those on your scumlist. You didn't go over why your suspects were scummy, much like KittyMo. SC bitched about Kitty going for an easy target or whatever by listing Neto at the top. He didn't even give her a chance.

[Kise]

Hmm. I thought the mod said deadline was in 24 hours lol. Not going to unvote though.

[Ojanen]

Day 1, OJ posted her scumreads and voted Neto without even mentioning why she felt he was scummy in that same post.

SC is cool with it

and he tells people not to lynch Neto until OJ can write another post about her scummers.
OK.
But KittyMo posted her scumreads with Neto at the top (same as OJ), tells everyone not to hammer until she can post again,

yet SC feels the need to ride my ass all game about it

?
Wat?
Kitty and OJ practically did the same thing. You have a meatier post, OJ. Sure. But that's due to explaining who you felt was town,

not

those on your scumlist. You didn't go over why your suspects were scummy, much like KittyMo. SC bitched about Kitty going for an easy target or whatever by listing Neto at the top. He didn't even give her a chance.

I just woke up today with this game in my mind thinking that I'm silly, it's probably DLA, Serial was really just too eagerly over Kise.
But this case is an absolute mess of wtf.

Kise, in my first content I posted townreads and namelist who was scum, and voted for Neto, was interrupted so didn't explain yet but said I would in a couple of hours.
I came back

3 hours later

to write the wall of text against Neto.
Serial had not even posted in that time. In fact he didn't post until Neto was quite quickly (fakely) at L-1, at which post he was eager to get the bussing in.
What I didn't get the chance to elaborate on was why I thought kiku and shotty were suspicious to me.
You are basically saying that kitty writing a namelist of suspects and me writing a catchup in two parts a couple of hours apart with a wall of post against my top suspect makes me scum because I didn't elaborate on my second and tertiary suspects and that is equal to Kitty's reasonless list later and Serial treated those two approaches differently.
That is just a lot of wtf.

I'll think through your answer about DLA in a sec.

[Ojanen]

I grant the farside kill being an ok point.
The other stuff assumes quite transparent scumplay.