Open 203: C/9 Mafia Wins!

[Wdjat]

FoS Gayle

Don't like how you encourage people to get back into the RVS when serious attempts to get us out are being made.

This sounds really weak to me. I can't believe that this post has you actually worried.

Only players I played with before are Gayle and JacobSavage (in an ongoing game). I assume you're asking for metagame purposes? Do you expect to find any connections? Do you think not answering the question is noteworthy?

Yeah, I think drawing connections between players is important. Not answering the question is as noteworthy as not answering any other random question in the early game.

Vote Count-Sho
Scott-Lowell, Gheb, tatetothetot,
Lowell-Wdjat, kyle99, gameplayah
dankillsu-gayle
gameplayah-the1fifi

[Max]

I just checked the player list, Lowell has played games of mine before. But I've never played with him (at least not in a long while).

[Wdjat]

You shouldn't need to make serious attempts to get out of RVS. RVS should lead to discussion and naturally end. "Who have you played with before" is not going to lead to

anything

. RVS is infinitely more useful than such a pointless question.

Yeah, because "I am voting for you because your avatar is giving me the stink eye" really fosters serious conversation. For what it's worth, I think the post that has Gheb worried is a non-tell. But you are wrong about RVS.

[Wdjat]

unvote

vote scott

There. Now I'm third. Geez.

Look at this dude sassing gameplayah instead of answering questions directed at him.

[Wdjat]

When you say mix it up, do you have anything in particular in mind or do you just play it by ear? I mean, the not playing by meta is one consistency at least. What else do you not do?

Discuss what play-style I intend to use nor come to a fixation with a list of things I will and Will not do.

Man I like you already.

[Gayle]

You shouldn't need to make serious attempts to get out of RVS.

In the same hand you shouldn't need to discourage it either.

I wasn't. But calling an end to RVS for a question that will lead to nothing was stupid.

Disagree so much, admittedly that question is not a good one. However RVS leads to bandwagon's for no reason. Making points about the set-up can lead to conversation with no RVS.

The problem with setup discussion is that it is less likely to lead to any scum hunting, whereas in RVS you can question those bandwagons, you can fish for reactions, etc. The best thing about RVS is that it starts the game relatively quickly, as opposed to RQS which leaves you answering boring, vaguely useful questions for days and strategy discussion which can leave you with absolutely nothing to go on when it ends.

You only need to look at the questions accompanying the above quote to see what I mean about RQS.

As to the question addressed to me, yes RVS appears to be over now. How does this answer help you hunt scum?

Yeah, because "I am voting for you because your avatar is giving me the stink eye" really fosters serious conversation. For what it's worth, I think the post that has Gheb worried is a non-tell. But you are wrong about RVS.

I can tell it is going to be "fun" arguing with you already. I'm not wrong. You don't discuss the avatar, you discuss the bandwagon, you purposefully pile on the bandwagon to draw reactions, you exaggerate the implications of someone's vote in order to pressure them, etc. You see who reacts to what and how.

Also,

[kyle99]

kyle99: Do you believe that wdjat is scum? If so, why?

No, I don't. It was a random vote. Why did you feel the need to ask this? It seems like a rather obvious and stupid question.

[The1fifi]

Max:

Gheb: The1fifi has made an error already, would you consider this to be a scumtell?

Sure it is a scumtell, only scum makes mistakes, townies are flawless -.-

[Max]

As to the question addressed to me, yes RVS appears to be over now. How does this answer help you hunt scum?

This specific question does not, your opinion however does. At what point, would you say, that the RVS was over?

No, I don't. It was a random vote. Why did you feel the need to ask this? It seems like a rather obvious and stupid question.

I would disagree it was obvious, you posted just after he did. So I wish to ask you the following:
Was there anything you disagreed with in any of his posts before your own, if so which?
What do you believe is so stupid about the question?
After my post wdjat had made many more posts, why did you choose to ignore those?
If I had questioned your opinion on any other player, would you think that was stupid?
How is this different?

@The1fifi:
Lurking is a scumtell, yet townies do it too. Does that mean you must discredit all scumtells as townies often do them also?
Examples: IIoA, Skimming Threads, Ignoring Questions, Bandwagoning, Hammering?

[Max]

as opposed to RQS which leaves you answering boring, vaguely useful questions for days and strategy discussion which can leave you with absolutely nothing to go on when it ends.

RQS, within about 2 days brings results. Once my questioning is finished, entirely ignoring RVS I will have my suspects. In fact most RVS stages end when a player asks a random question with an dissatisfying answer, why not cut out the middle man.

JacobSavage, you have yet to post, based on the first two pages, are there any particularly suspicious people in the game?
danakillsu, are there any posts that you feel reek scum, which?
Scott Brosius, are there any players you feel are avoiding posting content?

[kyle99]

Was there anything you disagreed with in any of his posts before your own, if so which?
What do you believe is so stupid about the question?
After my post wdjat had made many more posts, why did you choose to ignore those?
If I had questioned your opinion on any other player, would you think that was stupid?
How is this different?

No there wasn't anything I disagreed with.

The thing I thought stupid about your question was the fact that you based it on a random vote. I think asking people who make votes in the RVS if they think their scum is pretty pointless.

I didn't ignore them, I just didn't get any tells from them.

No, because your question was to early for anyone to have any any decent scumreads on anyone.

[The1fifi]

@Max : thats different. There are many reasons to wagon, lurk, etc. A town may "lurk" for not having much time or excited about the game, and can wagon because they do believe X player is scum... But to make a mistake, totally unintentional, there is no relation with alignment in my opinion.

[Gayle]

This specific question does not, your opinion however does. At what point, would you say, that the RVS was over?

At what point does this line of questioning lead to anything at all helpful? Please stop asking such pointless questions. They are not leading anywhere. They are not going to lead anywhere. RVS ended when you and Gheb decided it was a better idea to focus on questions that do not help anyone to find scum in anyway.

RQS, within about 2 days brings results. Once my questioning is finished, entirely ignoring RVS I will have my suspects. In fact most RVS stages end when a player asks a random question with an dissatisfying answer, why not cut out the middle man.

Because it is very difficult to get a dissatisfying answer from the kinds of questions used in RQS. Just look at the answers you have gotten so far.

Vote: Max

Based on the helpful information that Max's questions uncovered.
In other words: Nothing.

[Wdjat]

You shouldn't need to make serious attempts to get out of RVS.

In the same hand you shouldn't need to discourage it either.

I wasn't. But calling an end to RVS for a question that will lead to nothing was stupid.

Fuck serious, more rvs!

You weren't?

Yeah, because "I am voting for you because your avatar is giving me the stink eye" really fosters serious conversation. For what it's worth, I think the post that has Gheb worried is a non-tell. But you are wrong about RVS.

I can tell it is going to be "fun" arguing with you already. I'm not wrong. You don't discuss the avatar, you discuss the bandwagon, you purposefully pile on the bandwagon to draw reactions, you exaggerate the implications of someone's vote in order to pressure them, etc. You see who reacts to what and how.

Oh boy you're one of "those" people. RVS is random. I mean, it's in the name. When you try to discuss those votes and get crap like this defense. And all these benefits of RVS you're talking about sound suspiciously like discussion, something that questions are going to spark. Like the way you're talking about RVS as opposed to RQS, you'd think that we put random crap in bold letters and then magically we are playing mafia. No, we do have to actually discuss things at some point. And what are we going to discuss based on the content of the following posts?

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 41#2106441
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 77#2106477
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 26#2106526
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 82#2106582

[Wdjat]

Gayle, what changed your opinion on RVS between Newbie 877 and this game?

[Gayle]

You weren't?

Nope.

I've explained my views on RVS and RQS, so I am not going to bother with the rest of your post.

Gayle, what changed your opinion on RVS between Newbie 877 and this game?

What changed between my

second

game and now? I played in more games, I gained more experience, I realized how slow RQS is, I realized how much better RVS is, I realized how useless strategy discussion is in relation to scum hunting, and so on. In short, I learned better.

[Max]

Gayle, I promised to get you results in two days, I've used 6 hours. RVS has given you nothing, in fact you are voting me based on my questions therefore based on the RQS. Therefore I have just proven to you the RQS has brought about suspects.

The following I have deduced from my questioning:
- You dislike any change in the play methods used to start gaming conversation, regardless of the fact within the second page we have more info than most games make in the first 4.
- You suffer from tunnel vision majorly. There have been several posts before each of yours with content to pick at yet you choose to respond to myself. Confirmation Bias.
- kyle99 should have slow drifting scum reads rather than snap decision making. i.e. more than two pages to make his mind up on someone
- The1fifi treats mistakes and scumtells as separate when genuinely they are one and the same, for scum to be caught they must make mistakes.

Also Gayle, in the past 6 hours RQS has generated more discussion than the 24 hours beforehand. It has stimulated discussion which is the point of the RVS/RQS.

AND besides kyle99 has given me a scum read, why RV if an RVS means nothing? The point of RVS isn't for shits and giggles, it's so people can analyse the voting. You aren't doing that so why do you support the RVS?

[Gayle]

Gayle, I promised to get you results in two days, I've used 6 hours. RVS has given you nothing, in fact you are voting me based on my questions therefore based on the RQS. Therefore I have just proven to you the RQS has brought about suspects.

The following I have deduced from my questioning:
- You dislike any change in the play methods used to start gaming conversation, regardless of the fact within the second page we have more info than most games make in the first 4.
- You suffer from tunnel vision majorly. There have been several posts before each of yours with content to pick at yet you choose to respond to myself. Confirmation Bias.
- kyle99 should have slow drifting scum reads rather than snap decision making. i.e. more than two pages to make his mind up on someone
- The1fifi treats mistakes and scumtells as separate when genuinely they are one and the same, for scum to be caught they must make mistakes.

Also Gayle, in the past 6 hours RQS has generated more discussion than the 24 hours beforehand. It has stimulated discussion which is the point of the RVS/RQS.

AND besides kyle99 has given me a scum read, why RV if an RVS means nothing? The point of RVS isn't for shits and giggles, it's so people can analyse the voting. You aren't doing that so why do you support the RVS?

Max, all of those "discoveries" are completely worthless in regards to scum hunting. The discussion didn't come from your questions, but from people arguing over RVS.

Also, your scum read on Kyle is ridiculous.

[Max]

So your saying that if I said:
"Post 24 doesn't count because it's on the first page" it would not be considered in any way scummy? Atm it isn't but say someone was pressuring me on that post or questioning me on it, it's scummy.

Also, those discoveries are better than your RVS, if any of these change. E.g. say page 7 kyle says Y is town page 8 he says he's scum he better have hella of a reason.

You will dislike any unusual methods of scum hunting, or any that you don't like, and will instantly discount them. If you're town it means your hindering your cababilities, as scum it gives you leeway to do as you wish.

The1fifi shouldn't push people hard for simple mistakes of semantics as I have seen others do, (e.g. I'm not mafia instead of I'm not anti-town). Anything against that means the1fifi is pushing for a lynch and is desperate.

Consider RQS like the RVS that it has no logical boundary for determining scum in the short term, however in the long term the RVS is forgotten, and often ignored. However the RQS can easily have a lasting impact.

[kyle99]

Max, I'm sorry, but you're a moron. All of you're "discoveries" are complete crap.

vote: Max

[Wdjat]

Gayle, what changed your opinion on RVS between Newbie 877 and this game?

What changed between my

second

game and now? I played in more games, I gained more experience, I realized how slow RQS is, I realized how much better RVS is, I realized how useless strategy discussion is in relation to scum hunting, and so on. In short, I learned better.

What in particular made you "learn better?" I mean, it's only been a couple months since your second game so surely you can point to the eureka moment.

[Wdjat]

The following I have deduced from my questioning:
- You dislike any change in the play methods used to start gaming conversation, regardless of the fact within the second page we have more info than most games make in the first 4.
- You suffer from tunnel vision majorly. There have been several posts before each of yours with content to pick at yet you choose to respond to myself. Confirmation Bias.

These are valid reads. I'm inclined to think there's an ulterior motive behind Gayle's opposition.

- kyle99 should have slow drifting scum reads rather than snap decision making. i.e. more than two pages to make his mind up on someone
- The1fifi treats mistakes and scumtells as separate when genuinely they are one and the same, for scum to be caught they must make mistakes.

These reads are both crap. The question you aimed at The1fifi wasn't really phrased in the way that you're interpreting it after he answered. And this read on kyle99 is more about best practices in regards to building cases. We're looking an RVS vote. I'm sure his thinking was something like "that guy is right above me so I'll vote him." That said, we have more to build a read from. We get a sense of their personality. And you said you didn't play by meta, you big liar.

AND besides kyle99 has given me a scum read, why RV if an RVS means nothing? The point of RVS isn't for shits and giggles, it's so people can analyse the voting. You aren't doing that so why do you support the RVS?

Dude. RANDOM voting stage. It is for shits and giggles. That's why it's worthless.

[Wdjat]

Max, all of those "discoveries" are completely worthless in regards to scum hunting. The discussion didn't come from your questions, but from people arguing over RVS.

Also, your scum read on Kyle is ridiculous.

Oh man. This is a "good" post. I'm "glad" I read it. I sure "hope" you mak

Fuck, I can only mock you for so long. It's exhausting to type like you. Here's the problem: For all your praise of early wagons as a tool for scum hunting, you're doing a crap job of it. Like I haven't seen anything that looks like scum hunting from you, just whining about R(V/Q)S. Show us how it's done.

[Wdjat]

Max, I'm sorry, but you're a moron. All of you're "discoveries" are complete crap.

vote: Max

Don't follow Gayle's example. For the good of this thread.

[Gayle]

What in particular made you "learn better?"

Experience.

I mean, it's only been a couple months since your second game so surely you can point to the eureka moment.

Let's get to the point. You want to say that I'm being dishonest about my liking of RVS, correct? I've already told you that playing more games changed my opinion about it. There is no "eureka moment". Go read Teleportation Mafia Universe One if you want to see another game of mine where I echo this sentiment.

Here's the problem: For all your praise of early wagons as a tool for scum hunting, you're doing a crap job of it. Like I haven't seen anything that looks like scum hunting from you, just whining about R(V/Q)S. Show us how it's done.

I would like to remind you that you are doing the same thing, sir. That is, whining instead of scum hunting.



Also,

Don't follow Gayle's example. For the good of this thread.

Says the guy that posted this

"Oh man. This is a "good" post. I'm "glad" I read it. I sure "hope" you mak

Fuck, I can only mock you for so long. It's exhausting to type like you

Which is nothing but pointless trolling.

I'm antagonistic, but that is just how I play. Don't take it to heart. I'm not trying to insult anybody.