Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[popsofctown]

Day 2 Vote Count

CSL ( 2 ) Rhinox popsofctown
elvis_knits ( 1 ) mykonian
evilsnail ( 3 ) Raskol fishythefish Ellibereth
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 1 ) evilsnail
Hoopla ( 1 ) farside22
gayle ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 3 ) gayle Hoopla elvis_knits
Raskol ( 0 )
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 2 ) ojanen CSL
Total Votes ( 13 )

With 13 alive, 7 needed to lynch.
Deadline: Feb 22nd 19:00 EST

Well that makes me like my vote less...

unvote csl; vote popsofctown

Pops is not scum hunting this game. He's making a lot of jokes, off-topic comments about avatars or whatever. I am fine with jokes and banter, but not if you don't also scum hunt. He's not asking many questions, and if he does ask questions they don't seem very probing. Like he's not trying. He's not engaging people in discussion to try to find out their allignment. He's sitting there, making a few half-hearted attempts, and making sure people like him because he's saying funny stuff.

And now he's like "I don't see and obvscum, so vote CSL. BTW CSL has been ridiculously scummy this game." If he's been ridiculously scummy, why isn't he obvscum? I don't get it. I don't think pops is helping.

elvis, you aren't listening. I believe CSL to be unreadable, whether he does things that are universally scummy or not. So he's not obvscum, he has an unfortunate chance of flipping town, but he has to be lynched because there's no way to read him. I believe in policy lynches no matter what my alignment is, so attacking me for a disagreement in theory isn't really fair. I think the best way to play the game is to remove the unreadables and then start scumhunting.

[mykonian]

It appears that I disagree with mykonian in his reads, in his game strategy, and in his idea of what is scummy and what is not. So... everything.

You have totally not the idea that Raskol is scummy?

No, you disagree that I find you scummy. And I have no idea why you posted this.

[elvis_knits]

Mykonian, I actually am listening. I am asking you about CSL's meta and you haven't given me anything concrete except to say that you *think* he would play differently as scum. I'm still open to hearing something more specific.

As for my vote change... what exactly is your problem with it? Because it seems like you are saying that I am trying to look town by changing my vote. WTF does that even mean? Do you disagree with my reasoning for voting pops? Do you think pops

is

scum hunting? Because those would be valid reasons to argue with me at this point. Whatever the heck you just said is not.

So here you go again attacking me when I attack people for valid reasons. You aren't even arguing with me that my reasons are wrong, but tossing out some bullshit like I am choosing an easy target or that I am trying to appear town.

I haven't seen a scumgame of him, I have just talked a few times with him in private. He is the kind of person who would get excited with a scumrole, and that can be seen in the way he posts. I totally don't see that here.

Don't you think that information is a little... unreliable since you haven't even see him play a scum game?

Pops had a pretty good start of the game. He was one of the towniest players in the start of the game. Now you vote him for this, after he
voted CSL because he is an easy target.

I didn't vote pops because he vote for CSL "the easy target." I don't htink CSL is such an easy target. He's doing nothing and not getting lynched. He even has people like you defending him!

I agree pops looked better at the beginning of the game. Part of tha tmight have been an illusion though because he was participating a lot about strategy, and that's not scum hunting. I was thinking about how pops played in the other Zoraster game, where I was pops masonscum buddy. And I remember he had a tendency to disappear a little bit... not post for a few days when things got tough. He also seemed to try to charm people with off-topic banter. This is just my impression, and I have to go back and look at that game, but I'm concerned that this is his scum MO.

I also think that many of his votes have had VERY thin reasoning. And have gone with the flow of the game. Gayle. Me. DGB. CSL.

And I think there is definitely scum on the DGB wagon, which was:
Mykonian

ABR

pops
fishy
plum
rhinox

Much of the case on DGB was crap sandwich of meta assumptions. Which makes me pretty sure there is scum there. I'm open to discussion of who that is though, if you have different ideas.

This was the thing I accused you of when you voted CSL! Pops, if you remember, actually asked for a

policy lynch

. You are a hypocrite, and you are just looking for a way to savely place your vote. In doing so, you place it on someone who has played very towny during day one, and I can't see how you so suddenly can jump on pops as town.

I'm not voting pops for the reason you are voting me. So... yeah. You're wrong. I'm not a hypocrite. You're posting assumptions about me like they're reasons. All of your reads actually seem based on assumptions. Like "CSL is town because he always acts this scummy and I think he would be more excited if he were scum."

[elvis_knits]

elvis, you aren't listening. I believe CSL to be unreadable, whether he does things that are universally scummy or not. So he's not obvscum, he has an unfortunate chance of flipping town, but he has to be lynched because there's no way to read him. I believe in policy lynches no matter what my alignment is, so attacking me for a disagreement in theory isn't really fair. I think the best way to play the game is to remove the unreadables and then start scumhunting.

I think you should be scumhunting all along though, and I don't feel like you're trying lately.

[popsofctown]

I'm sorry e_k. Part of it is homework load variation. It saps away how much time i tell myself I'm gonna spend when I click on mafiascum, and sometimes that means I don't dig into the scumhunting so much. Kinda like Fishy.

[farside22]

I'm sorry e_k. Part of it is homework load variation. It saps away how much time i tell myself I'm gonna spend when I click on mafiascum, and sometimes that means I don't dig into the scumhunting so much. Kinda like Fishy.

Lets see beside following people on cases adds to the list against pops that he follows excuses used by others.

So noted.

[popsofctown]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10451

Here's a game where I go off topic as town. I don't remember charming people with offtopic banter last game. Offtopic banter doesn't really get me anywhere, I just do it with either alignment because it's how I enjoy the game.


And OMG. Fishy had real life time constraints! And pops had real life time constraints too! OMG, that's such a unique, rarely seen excuse, pops must totally be copying fishy.

[farside22]

And OMG. Fishy had real life time constraints! And pops had real life time constraints too! OMG, that's such a unique, rarely seen excuse, pops must totally be copying fishy.

OMG I so noticed you didn't say this before or have this excuse on hand before till fishy said it. How dare I notice that.

[Gayle]

Pretend that I have "real life time constraints" until I bother to catchup tonight.

[mykonian]

Don't you think that information is a little... unreliable since you haven't even see him play a scum game?

uhm, no? All I need from meta is to see how people will react in certain situations. I have to have a basic understanding how someone thinks.

Pops had a pretty good start of the game. He was one of the towniest players in the start of the game. Now you vote him for this, after he
voted CSL because he is an easy target.

I didn't vote pops because he vote for CSL "the easy target." I don't htink CSL is such an easy target. He's doing nothing and not getting lynched. He even has people like you defending him!

ok, I'll restate: you voted pops, partly, because you thought his vote on CSL bad.

And I think there is definitely scum on the DGB wagon, which was:
Mykonian

ABR

pops
fishy
plum
rhinox

Much of the case on DGB was crap sandwich of meta assumptions. Which makes me pretty sure there is scum there. I'm open to discussion of who that is though, if you have different ideas.

oh, this is so easy! Just discredit the bunch because they were on a confirmed towny.

Now, many of those players (except ABR) got onto that wagon in a way that was much prettier then your vote on CSL this day, and your vote on pops. There were more arguments then meta on her (As I have little knowledge how she plays, I never used the argument, and I think the same was for Fishy). This generalisation is a nice diversion, and sure, it is true that it isn't unlikely that there was scum on the wagon, but putting it this way is plain wrong.

This was the thing I accused you of when you voted CSL! Pops, if you remember, actually asked for a

policy lynch

. You are a hypocrite, and you are just looking for a way to savely place your vote. In doing so, you place it on someone who has played very towny during day one, and I can't see how you so suddenly can jump on pops as town.

I'm not voting pops for the reason you are voting me. So... yeah. You're wrong. I'm not a hypocrite. You're posting assumptions about me like they're reasons. All of your reads actually seem based on assumptions. Like "CSL is town because he always acts this scummy and I think he would be more excited if he were scum."

uhm, yes? All cases are based on assumptions. The likelyness of those assumptions mostly determines the case, as logic is usually easy. In a game where you know nothing, you have to assume things.

It is ok to attack those assumptions, and say they are likely wrong. But you don't do that, you attack me that I make them. I'm sorry, but without assumptions we are getting nowhere. Understanding those assumptions is actually a great tool for scumhunting, since scum will use wrong assumptions with correct logic to fake cases. (hence Fishy's tell that he is more logic as scum: it is easier to fake cases that way)

[Ellibereth]

Still not done.
[quote="evil"Re my scum tells: It's been a long time since I played as scum, so I don't fully remember, but I definitely like busing my scumbuddies. That's fun. Other than that, I tend to be more cautious with my vote. When I'm town, I have very strong gut feelings about people and that's difficult to fake. So, if I'm using more intuition than sense, that's usually a sign that I'm town.[/quote]
^^^ Cautious with his vote...not following gut as much...doesn't that describe his current play?

[Ellibereth]

Ugh

Still not done.

Re my scum tells: It's been a long time since I played as scum, so I don't fully remember, but I definitely like busing my scumbuddies. That's fun. Other than that, I tend to be more cautious with my vote. When I'm town, I have very strong gut feelings about people and that's difficult to fake. So, if I'm using more intuition than sense, that's usually a sign that I'm town.

^^^ Cautious with his vote...not following gut as much...doesn't that describe his current play?

[mykonian]

Good point!

Elli gets towny points!

[Gayle]

Good point!

Elli gets towny points!

Wat

[farside22]

point of order for the DGB voters and those that switched over the CSL

Those that voted for DGB and why:
Mykonian

wait, we are at the start of the game, I have asked a question, you are saying you caught scum by it, but it is useless?

unvote vote DGB

If you have a mindset where catching scum is pointless, you are scum. I am certain this was a major scumslip.

1. Seen the votecount, the interest in my lynch, elvis's, Raskols.

2. His "you are just as bad as adel" was not a defense, but a complaint. He didn't bother to defend.

3. Defending is probably the better word.

4. I will. No talk about night actions prohibits a lynch.

5. It is clear that it is normal for you two to be over each other. So it is almost expected from you to vote him and call him scum.

6. Please tell me how I can miss it.

I am shocked by the vote...not. You and Adel are really the same.

This was his post after your vote on him. He doesn't defend, only suggest this is the same thing over and over again. Sounds a lot like a personal problem to me.


DGB, I find it funny how you try to talk this into a conspiracy. First, albert must be scum, then, before the game, he must have communicated what you were going to do, but he didn't take actions to prohibit it. In stead, he asked his scumbuddy to ask for a teleportation after you would vote him. Seriously, this is reaching.

unvote vote DGB

Fabricating evidence, no matter how weird you play, is not town.

pops

I'm not defending DGB on all points. I really don't know what to think of her erratic play atm, it's bizarre.

I just didn't like your saying that she can't think the question is stupid and still find scum with it. She can. But yes, I know that you are arguing the question isn't dumb

@farside: I wasn't defending DGB in general, I was just opposing that one point where mykonian suggested she was contradicting herself. "she hasn't noticed that 3 people answered the question"+"scum skim threads" is legit formula scumhunting, agreed.

Write now I'm concerned DGB is going for "insanity plea scumhunting" by voting evilsnail on flimsy logic and encouraging e_k to skip the thread and vote with her, then shouting she already knows who the 5cumZ are when she ought to be defending herself.

unvote, vote DGB

Nah, Albert, I still prefer elvis lynch. Though 501 was getting to a ridiculous level of imitation of that post.

elvis is still town.

..... ok, your overtly committing the very thing ABR and I are onto you for. Elvis, at the least, is trying. I give votes to players that seem to want them.

vote:DGB

fishy

I like the DGB wagon best:
DGB on myk’s question is bad. If she finds the question, and responses, serious scumtells, why this, after the question and some responses:

Who do you suspect, DGB? Why are you not voting?

No one, that should answer both questions.

@ mykonian You're asking for my scumtells? How the heck should I know. I'm different in every game. Every game has a rhythm, and an atmosphere.

If the question and the answerers are scummy, why didn’t you suspect anyone?

After she does say that people who answered are scum (208), she fails to notice 2 of the 3 players who answered it (farside, me). farside immediately points this out (212). DGB ignores this for a long time, which seems very odd – she is now using it as a serious argument, so why on earth wouldn’t she look at the responses to the question until they were shoved in her face for a third time?

This inconsistent pushing of a scumtell doesn’t look like a serious attempt to work out who the scum are – more like a convenient reason for votes/suspicions.

I don’t like her accusation of an ABR/myk scumteam based on the latter’s wanting one of ABR/DGB teleported away. It’s very much against scum-with-ABR myk's interests to have ABR teleported away, so this makes little sense. Feels like she just wants to sling dirt at myk. Also produces a very bad argument for her initial vote – clearly not reading myk’s thoughts on CSL before voting him over them – this at a time when myk was under some pressure.

DGB’s timeline on myk:
- Jumps on wagon as fourth vote after Plum finds myk’s slip
- Moves off, briefly, to ABR
- Revotes with crappy reasoning
This last bit really feels like an attempt to push forward an otherwise faltering wagon.

unvote, vote: DGB

rhinox

ek 796: These are some good points, but wouldn't make me lynch plum today before lynching scum-csl.

I have seen CSL fakeclaim a powerrole as towny in an open setup. Have you ever played with him?

no don't believe I have.


I figured out something thats been bothering me about DGB. ABR-scum wouldn't be pursuing a personal vendetta, he would just be trying to force mislynch. For ABR to be tunneling because of a personal vendetta, that would point to ABR being town. DGB is arguing that a personal vendetta from ABR makes ABR scum, and that is just not the case.

Unless ABR has a vendetta that puts lynching DGB above his wincon regardless of allignment, which makes the tunneling a null tell, but makes ABR anti-town for doing so.

I have never played with DGB or ABR before, so I know nothing of either players meta or any possible vendetta between them. Truthfully, I could really care less right now, because right now in this game, DGB if flailing and looks scummy - ABR does not.

unvote: vote DGB

I think that is L-1 yes?. Claim time.

Those above that switched to ABR

and lets end this.

vote ABR

Looks like they got it wrong. Should have gone with Jack.

unvote, vote: ABR

Oh dear. I should vote count by hand more often. I rechecked because I just now noticed 892, and thought farside was being practical. (she wasn't as far as i can tell mykonian has few votes.)


ABR is closer to L-0, and we need to make a lynch here.

unvote, vote ABR

The reason I'm particularly attentive to whether ABR's targets flip scum is because I'm assuming I'm a good scumhunter (...lol...) and therefore I think he's townie for targetting scum atm.

But since DGB has functionally "flipped", he's already got one red mark since I made that post. And calling for mason not to cc was obviously dumb.

So this deadline lynch doesn't sting at all, he's almost on a level with CSL. (who has been way scummier than policy lynch line for quite some time, Gayle).

I noticed that fishy only focused on the debate of myko and DGB in his post. This looks like a valid case but idk when someone just focas's on the most 2 vocal people and not really push a case anywhere else it rings some untruth to me.
He just follows the BW to ABR.

I'm not sure if myko's hammer was a good thing or not. Would getting more time to hopefully, hope that the OU would have pulled DGB instead of sending someone away be better? Was 3 minutes enough time for someone to pull a player?

pops first and second vote on DGB just rub me the wrong way.

[evilsnail]

I don't mind pops's justification for his CSL vote so much, even though I'm not a huge fan of policy lynches. The observation that there was no "obvscum" struck me as strange, though. There's plenty of people making cases. Heck, there's a bandwagon on me that people seem to like. By making these wagons out to be non-existent or weak, he's basically making the reasoning behind his vote out to be weaker than it is.

[mykonian]

ok, here you see the negative side of not posting all the reasons with the vote, but having them over multiple posts.

Early game arguments against DGB were in iso 11, 12, 16 (I didn't bother to get the mess of our argument with that too)

And the hammer was already reasoned for earlier, in case there was no counterclaim.

Further, I thought the other universe had all night to choose who to send/pull

mod, can you confirm this?

so more time would have given nothing but a game that wasn't moving.

[mykonian]

Good point!

Elli gets towny points!

Wat

I wouldn't have found it, and I would very much like Evil to reply to it.

[evilsnail]

Well, to be honest, that post was more accurate for my old playing style. Some time has passed since I last played and I'm finding out that my new style is different. I haven't been going off gut reads as much in any of my games. I used to be more aggressive in following up on them, but now that seems kind of unhelpful. As for the caution, that has more to do with losing track of the game than anything else.

[farside22]

Well, to be honest, that post was more accurate for my old playing style. Some time has passed since I last played and I'm finding out that my new style is different. I haven't been going off gut reads as much in any of my games. I used to be more aggressive in following up on them, but now that seems kind of unhelpful. As for the caution, that has more to do with losing track of the game than anything else.

So you lied about what you do as scum when you first answered or you answered it thinking of past games and nothing that is current?

[mykonian]

aren't gut reads something that becomes valuable when you are playing longer?

Why would you ever stop using them when you finally have them working, or are used to scumhunting based on that?

[Ellibereth]

He's probably bussing his buddies like he said he would too.

[farside22]

Hmmm elli's reasoning is really hard to pass up.

unvote:
fos: hoopla

vote: evilsnail

yeah I know I'm following someone for once. Shot me.

[mykonian]

nah, I agree with you:

unvote vote evilsnail.

[Ellibereth]

Are my eyes glazing or did Jack just basically claim scum.