Mini 912 - Little Golden Mafia (OVER)

[dramonic]

Vote:Phlight

Now, considering the tracker FLIPPED, why are you voting ToD and calling him scum, since we have proof you're lying?

[totallynotmafia]

Okay

Unvote

, seeing as that was based on what I thought was an actual track. Can someone tell me what the chances are of two trackers being in a game of this size? I'm guessing not very likely.

@Phlight: I could see the value of the hypoclaim in that if everybody claims a result, scum have no way of knowing who is telling the truth and if an investigative role does die then we have their results. My problem is that voting for someone after you've hypoclaimed that you have tracked them to somebody's death is basically implying that your claim is true, at least that's the way I took it. Please explain why you voted for Trumpet after your hypoclaim.

@Trumpet: When you voted for PJ you went out of your way to say that he was on L-2 when he was actually on L-1. If you were scum it seems like a pretty good tactic to me, somebody too lazy to actually check the votes could come along and vote for him thinking they were putting him on L-1 when they were actually hammering, and stating what the vote count is in your post implies you've actually checked it is true, otherwise why bother saying it? Please explain.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Trumpet of Doom doesn't want a hypoclaim because he's scum. Although I didn't claim a result on him that implicates that he's scum (I hypoclaimed one, which is quite different), you can see the way that he absolutely freaked out.

Phlight wants a hypoclaim because they're scum. Although I made a completely reasonable argument for why hypoclaiming is a bad idea, you can see the way they just blew it off. (See what I did there?)

For those who need me to restate why hypoclaiming is bad

*cough*Phlight*cough*

, here it is:

Phlight's hypoclaim is this:

If I have a role that targets, I targeted Trumpet of Doom in the last day/night cycle.

If I have a role that inspects for alignment, I didn't receive a result.

If I have a role that tracks or a role that watches, no one targeted Trumpet of Doom and Trumpet of Doom targetted BridgesAndBaloons.

So unless there's:
(a) a mafia RB who
(b) targeted Phlight, scum now knows - repeat, KNOWS - that Phlight's not a cop.

If everyone hypoclaims, scum can take that info and use it to figure out who might have a PR worth killing. I can't believe I have to explain this. And I didn't vote him strictly for hypoclaiming an incriminating result on me, I'm voting him for suggesting that everyone hypoclaim in the first place - the result he hypoclaimed merely sealed the deal.

2/3 of my top three possible scum have now refused to hypoclaim; let's see what SC does.

SC already claimed mason. Pay attention, scumbag.

@Trumpet: When you voted for PJ you went out of your way to say that he was on L-2 when he was actually on L-1. If you were scum it seems like a pretty good tactic to me, somebody too lazy to actually check the votes could come along and vote for him thinking they were putting him on L-1 when they were actually hammering, and stating what the vote count is in your post implies you've actually checked it is true, otherwise why bother saying it? Please explain.

There are a variety of things it could be, and I'm not sure which of these it was:
- I miscounted
- I thought it was 8 to lynch
- I didn't see one of the votes before mine (maybe one of ML's and dramonic's, since those two were right next to each other and both in short posts)

Take your pick. Hopefully those are all satisfactory.

[wolframnhart]

I have never seen this hypoclaim thing before and have no real idea what it is about. But did plight just claim tracker or watcher or something just like Bridgesandballoons role? I'm all confused now

[peanutman]

I also don't like the way that Phlight jumped on the first person who didn't agree that the hypoclaim was a good idea.

Trumpet of Doom doesn't want a hypoclaim because he's scum.

Does this mean that anyone who doesn't want a hypoclaim is scum? I think's it's the wrong approach here. Phlight, if you had proposed the idea first and gotten discussion on its merits, it would have been more valuable. And then you voting for Trumpet right after your hypoclaim is just very odd. Do you expect all those who hypoclaim to then vote for their "hypo-suspect" or whatever?

In other news, regarding TNM, reading back on him, I think when he mentioned the country mouse-city mouse bit, he was in a way explaining why the claim and role/flavour made sense. However, it wasn't clear at the time and his switch did seem sudden. So, I will back off on you for now TNM, because I can see you as townie acting that way, though, to be honest, you should have put more thought into your quick vote switch, espcecially given your previous post about needing to hear from SC before even considering changing your vote.

Claim makes sense, and I like what people are saying about Panzer's 133. Unvote; Vote: Panzerjager. (Should be L-2, for people who care.)

This, however, is much more suspcious. TNM has already brought up the odd and misleading L-2 comment. But the other thing I don't like is that he adds his vote near the end, echoing everyone else comments without adding anything new. I get the feeling he knows the lynch is inevitable and he's best to be on the wagon. Also, there's something not right about the "for people who care" comment. What did you mean by that Trumpet? If, as you say, the L-2 comment was an innocent mistake, what were you looking to add with the second part of it?

The other player that worries me is Dramonic. He also voted for PJ later in the day, and, like Trumpet, by simply echoing earlier sentiments. Add to that, all his posts have been very short (2-3 lines max) and to the point. I believe they have been generally helpful to the town but aren't helpful in us getting a read on him. I go through him in iso and he doesn't give much away. My first few online mafia games, I've had bad gut feelings about this type of play, and, without going into the "too-townie" argument, I try to keep a close eye on those who post very little, drawing little attention to themselves.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Ill.

Time to pursue my other suspect from when I replaced in.

Vote: totallynotmafia

I know what I am, but you were awfully quick to jump off my wagon when all I claimed was my story.

The scum's also clearly power-role hunting. We don't know what the two recently dead are yet, though.

I don't get why people (especially you) think it is so strange that I believed you - country mouse and city mouse make sense to be masons, if it had been a story without such an obvious relationship then I would have been dubious. If you are scum then it means that you either went through the little golden books and found country mouse and city mouse, hoping nobody else would have it, or you ARE country mouse and your scumbuddy is city mouse, which would be the dumbest claim ever because if your scumbuddy is lynched and comes up as city mouse, you're screwed. The first scenario is possible I guess, but involves a fair bit of luck, and is much more of a stretch than if you are telling the truth and you are a mason.

If I said that we know each other to be town and we actually don't, I'm effed. If I'm scum that fakeclaimed my buddy to be my mason, I'm effed. I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I'm not as idiotic as Phlight portrays me.

And what was the point of saying "I know what I am"? Stating the obvious a fair bit there, I should hope everyone knows what their role is.

"I know what I am" is my standard disclaimer for when I say something that I know could entertain the possibility that I'm scum.

And guess what? Phlight is now three for three for his "suspects" that refuse to hypoclaim. I reiterate that I am a mason and I refuse to claim any of his requested actions from me, as he should know that I did none of them.

Vote: Phlight

I told you scum were looking for power roles.

[lobstermania]

I'm completely exhausted from midterms, so I think I need to re-read this a few times to understand the hypoclaim correctly. I will post in the next 18 hours.

[dramonic]

So tell me phlight, do you believe the three voting you form the whole scumteam?

[totallynotmafia]

Fuck, I feel stupid now, what Trumpet said about hypoclaiming is correct - the potential for role-fishing is enormous. Now that I've "claimed" to have an innocent on Phlight, if I do anything to contradict this (suspecting or voting for Phlight), scum can rule me out as cop.

Phlight, I'd like to see an example of where this hypoclaiming has worked in another game and actually benefited town.

[dramonic]

not necessarely.
just convince yourself he's a godfather

[MacavityLock]

I too am interested to hear Phlight explain the "this is pretty much a guilty on ToD" hypoclaim shenanigans.

Ok... Stranger is alive... Quid?

Does this surprise you? Why? What does "Quid" mean here?

[dramonic]

Quid is an equivalent to WTF, but polite.
And it confuses me because mason is a pr. It's weird for scum to leave a pr alive.

[Phlight]

Why did you vote for Trumpet of Doom?

Because he's scum. This may or may not be related to my hypoclaim. Explaining hypoclaim results introduces too much wifom.

Did Phlight just claim? Has hypoclaiming ever worked before?

Do your own damn Google searches.

Why is Trumpet of Doom scum?

Read Trumpet of Doom in iso. Watch how he behaves with DS. He immediately jumps on my DScase.

20 definitely feels off, and Phlight does a nice job explaining why in 21. <snip> I'm gonna have to go with Panzer and Phlight on this.

After his first few points, he completely ignores DS until the claim, at which point he falls off the wagon and puts Panzer at L-1 (although specifically states that it's L-1, which fooled totallynotmafia and I and possibly others because the votecount wasn't there, and neither of us thought to check).

Claim makes sense, and I like what people are saying about Panzer's 133.

Now, he's up to

SC already claimed mason. Pay attention, scumbag.

1) A seemingly serious attack is made against his seemingly incompetent scumbuddy.
2) He sees the opportunity for an easy bus, and seizes it.
3) His partner claims mason and then is replaced by a competent player. All of the sudden, his vote isn't so well-placed.
4) Another wagon forms. An easy one, for an overaggressive lurker, that he can jump on without it being too obvious.
5) The next day dawns. His earlier 'suspicions' of his partner are nowhere to be found. Indeed, he agrees with everything his partner says without any questioning.

The next big point is during our discussion over whether the partner should claim. Remember that this is, in his words "as much a theory discussion as anything else".

HoS: Phlight

- my vote's staying on DS until he fullclaims, and it might stay there after the claim as well (it depends what he says). If I unvote DS, you're next.

The fact that he's looking for a safe way to jump off of DS and a town target aside, he's launching a full-scale attack, but without a vote. He's trying to start a wagon without voting. This is another example of trying to spread suspicion while leaving yourself an out (see the early discussion between DS and I).

25 hours later, several people have weighed in and no one has taken the bait. He immediately and completely backs down. At the end, he adds:

(In other news, I should probably refrain from making decisions on someone's towniness or scumminess after about 11:15 PM GMT-6.)

This is scum talking. Town (barring very inexperienced players) does not feel the need to apologize for their suspicions. I can't see this reconciliatory tone coming from a town player in this instance.

Fast forward to today. His response to my hypoclaim mirrored his attack against me over whether the specifics of the mason claim. As his scumbuddies jump on the wagon, he gains confidence and the attacks increase.

Are you serious?
<snip>
In other news, your claimed hypotrack result on me is BS.
<snip>

*cough*Phlight*cough*

<snip>
I can't believe I have to explain this.
<snip>
Pay attention, scumbag.

This is not a townie who thinks he knows who the scum is. This is not a townie who knows he knows who the scum is. This is scum playing for an audience. A townie would not argue theory with someone he was this convinced was scum - why would you? What's the point in arguing theory with scum? Unless Trumpet of Doom is either very inexperienced or very childish, there's altogether too much bravado here for this to be anything but acting.

Also of note is Trumpet of Doom's response to totallynotmafia over his claiming that Panzer was at L-2 when he was at L-1.

Hopefully those are all satisfactory.

Here's that reconciliatory, sucking-up tone again.
I think it's pretty obvious that SC is scum, and I believe I've stated why. I'll do a case on dramonic when I wake up in about 10 hours if a townie wants it.

[StrangerCoug]

Why did you vote for Trumpet of Doom?

Because he's scum. This may or may not be related to my hypoclaim.

This is vague.

Explaining hypoclaim results introduces too much wifom.

Then why the hell did you suggest hypoclaiming at all? I don't consider it good play to just pick targets out of the blue.

Did Phlight just claim? Has hypoclaiming ever worked before?

Do your own damn Google searches.[/quote]
I may be a "play as I go" type of player, but I think these are reasonable questions. Everybody has the right to ask about what they don't understand.

SC already claimed mason. Pay attention, scumbag.

1) A seemingly serious attack is made against his seemingly incompetent scumbuddy.

Makes sense.

2) He sees the opportunity for an easy bus, and seizes it.

I think the operative word in your sentence is "easy". DedicatedScribe was a village idiot. Enough said.

3) His partner claims mason and then is replaced by a competent player. All of the sudden, his vote isn't so well-placed.

Your meta-defending Panzerjager was unwarranted regardless of how well-placed my vote was.

4) Another wagon forms. An easy one, for an overaggressive lurker, that he can jump on without it being too obvious.

Lurker I can see out of Panzerjager. Overaggressive is not really a scumtell, though that may be your point.

5) The next day dawns. His earlier 'suspicions' of his partner are nowhere to be found. Indeed, he agrees with everything his partner says without any questioning.

Fakeclaiming mason the way I have is idiotic.
The next big point is during our discussion over whether the partner should claim. Remember that this is, in his words "as much a theory discussion as anything else".

HoS: Phlight

- my vote's staying on DS until he fullclaims, and it might stay there after the claim as well (it depends what he says). If I unvote DS, you're next.

The fact that he's looking for a safe way to jump off of DS and a town target aside, he's launching a full-scale attack, but without a vote. He's trying to start a wagon without voting. This is another example of trying to spread suspicion while leaving yourself an out (see the early discussion between DS and I).

25 hours later, several people have weighed in and no one has taken the bait. He immediately and completely backs down. At the end, he adds:

(In other news, I should probably refrain from making decisions on someone's towniness or scumminess after about 11:15 PM GMT-6.)

This is scum talking. Town (barring very inexperienced players) does not feel the need to apologize for their suspicions. I can't see this reconciliatory tone coming from a town player in this instance.

Fast forward to today. His response to my hypoclaim mirrored his attack against me over whether the specifics of the mason claim. As his scumbuddies jump on the wagon, he gains confidence and the attacks increase.

Are you serious?
<snip>
In other news, your claimed hypotrack result on me is BS.
<snip>

*cough*Phlight*cough*

<snip>
I can't believe I have to explain this.
<snip>
Pay attention, scumbag.

This is not a townie who thinks he knows who the scum is. This is not a townie who knows he knows who the scum is. This is scum playing for an audience. A townie would not argue theory with someone he was this convinced was scum - why would you? What's the point in arguing theory with scum? Unless Trumpet of Doom is either very inexperienced or very childish, there's altogether too much bravado here for this to be anything but acting.

Also of note is Trumpet of Doom's response to totallynotmafia over his claiming that Panzer was at L-2 when he was at L-1.

Hopefully those are all satisfactory.

Here's that reconciliatory, sucking-up tone again.
I think it's pretty obvious that SC is scum, and I believe I've stated why. I'll do a case on dramonic when I wake up in about 10 hours if a townie wants it.

[MacavityLock]

And it confuses me because mason is a pr. It's weird for scum to leave a pr alive.

Something's off about this. Are all PRs created equal?

Phlight, why didn't you make this case on ToD along with, or even instead of, your hypoclaim? The way I'm seeing it right now, the whole hypoclaim thing was a way of pushing a ToD lynch in the laziest manner possible.

[Phlight]

@MacavityLock:

Why did you vote for Trumpet of Doom?

Because he's scum. This may or may not be related to my hypoclaim. Explaining hypoclaim results introduces too much wifom.

Quit fence-sitting. Either refuse to hypoclaim and explain why, or hypoclaim. Either of those provides information to analyze.

You're accusing me of laziness? Really? This is like the pot calling the napkin black. You've made ten posts in this game. One of them is a confirm. Three are utterly devoid of game-related content. You don't have a single post longer than ten sentences. You've been asking pointed questions and doing nothing with the answers all game. Either get off your ass and start contributing, or ask for replacement.

[MacavityLock]

Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. I refuse to hypoclaim, due to the variety of information that scum could glean from it.

The hypoclaim you provided in conjunction with your vote could easily be read as an outright guilty on ToD, and you clearly knew it. The case only came

after

it was revealed that BaB was tracker and your hypoclaim+vote was BS. Turning the laziness attack on me doesn't answer for this.

Fine, I haven't been as active in this game as I'd like, due to being busy. However, I'm in it, and I'm committed.

[Phlight]

I've made more posts than any other player in the game. My word total is more than the combined word totals of you, lobstermania, dramonic, wolframnhart, peanutman, and you again.

I'm finding it difficult to find an accusation of laziness seriously.

I'm more interested in your opinions on my case, other than your disapproval of when I posted it.

[Trumpet of Doom]

So... Phlight hasn't responded to (and certainly hasn't refuted) any of the points I actually made about why hypoclaiming is incredibly pro-scum and he's a scummy person for suggesting it, instead only trying to build a case on me

after

it became clear that his hypoclaim wasn't going to get me lynched? Can we please lynch the incredibly obvious scum already?

After his first few points, he completely ignores DS until the claim

I believe we call that "bullshit." In my posts between the one you quoted and the claim, I

only

talked about DS.

Are you serious?
<snip>
In other news, your claimed hypotrack result on me is BS.
<snip>

*cough*Phlight*cough*

<snip>
I can't believe I have to explain this.
<snip>
Pay attention, scumbag.

This is not a townie who thinks he knows who the scum is. This is not a townie who knows he knows who the scum is. This is scum playing for an audience.

Right, because of course I've

never

played like this as town - oh, wait... I know you think meta's a reasonable defense, Phlight, since you tried to use it to clear Panzer. So take a look at mine.

A townie would not argue theory with someone he was this convinced was scum - why would you? What's the point in arguing theory with scum? Unless Trumpet of Doom is either very inexperienced or very childish, there's altogether too much bravado here for this to be anything but acting.

I think "egotistical" is the word you're looking for. I'm a trumpet player, it comes with the territory. And considering this particular theory dispute is the main reason

why

I think you're scum, it makes perfect sense for me to explain why I'm right and you're

wrong

scum as much as necessary to get the point across. Hanlon's Razor does not work in your favor here.

And I'm sorry you can't read and thought those comments were supposed to be reconciliatory ( ).

---

In other news:

Claim makes sense, and I like what people are saying about Panzer's 133. Unvote; Vote: Panzerjager. (Should be L-2, for people who care.)

This, however, is much more suspcious. TNM has already brought up the odd and misleading L-2 comment. But the other thing I don't like is that he adds his vote near the end, echoing everyone else comments without adding anything new. I get the feeling he knows the lynch is inevitable and he's best to be on the wagon.

Uh... what? If I'm scum, wouldn't it be better for me

not

to be on the wagon, so that when it hits a townie, I can say, "hey, I knew that was a bad wagon?" (Yes, I know that's WIFOM... what would you expect in a response to a statement like that?)

Also, there's something not right about the "for people who care" comment. What did you mean by that Trumpet? If, as you say, the L-2 comment was an innocent mistake, what were you looking to add with the second part of it?

I meant exactly what I said. I know there are players who'll support a wagon like that regardless of where they might fall on it, but there are some who won't get on near the end of a wagon early D1.

@dram: Any half-decent doc would have protected SC last night. The only reason I can see for scum to try to kill him would have been to test for a doc's existence.

@SC: I'm thinking that 213 wasn't finished when you posted it. Could you fix that, please?

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Well again.

@SC: I'm thinking that 213 wasn't finished when you posted it. Could you fix that, please?

Sure, since most of it also happens to be ill-formatted.

Did Phlight just claim? Has hypoclaiming ever worked before?

Do your own damn Google searches.

I may be a "play as I go" type of player, but I think these are reasonable questions. Everybody has the right to ask about what they don't understand.

SC already claimed mason. Pay attention, scumbag.

1) A seemingly serious attack is made against his seemingly incompetent scumbuddy.

Makes sense.

2) He sees the opportunity for an easy bus, and seizes it.

I think the operative word in your sentence is "easy". DedicatedScribe was a village idiot. Enough said.

3) His partner claims mason and then is replaced by a competent player. All of the sudden, his vote isn't so well-placed.

Your meta-defending Panzerjager was unwarranted regardless of how well-placed my vote was.

4) Another wagon forms. An easy one, for an overaggressive lurker, that he can jump on without it being too obvious.

Lurker I can see out of Panzerjager. Overaggressive is not really a scumtell, though that may be your point.

5) The next day dawns. His earlier 'suspicions' of his partner are nowhere to be found. Indeed, he agrees with everything his partner says without any questioning.

Fakeclaiming mason the way I have is idiotic.

The next big point is during our discussion over whether the partner should claim. Remember that this is, in his words "as much a theory discussion as anything else".

HoS: Phlight

- my vote's staying on DS until he fullclaims, and it might stay there after the claim as well (it depends what he says). If I unvote DS, you're next.

The fact that he's looking for a safe way to jump off of DS and a town target aside, he's launching a full-scale attack, but without a vote. He's trying to start a wagon without voting. This is another example of trying to spread suspicion while leaving yourself an out (see the early discussion between DS and I).

Makes sense.

25 hours later, several people have weighed in and no one has taken the bait. He immediately and completely backs down. At the end, he adds:

(In other news, I should probably refrain from making decisions on someone's towniness or scumminess after about 11:15 PM GMT-6.)

This is scum talking. Town (barring very inexperienced players) does not feel the need to apologize for their suspicions. I can't see this reconciliatory tone coming from a town player in this instance.

I also find this scummy, but for a slightly different reason—making excuses.

Fast forward to today. His response to my hypoclaim mirrored his attack against me over whether the specifics of the mason claim. As his scumbuddies jump on the wagon, he gains confidence and the attacks increase.

Are you serious?
<snip>
In other news, your claimed hypotrack result on me is BS.
<snip>

*cough*Phlight*cough*

<snip>
I can't believe I have to explain this.
<snip>
Pay attention, scumbag.

This is not a townie who thinks he knows who the scum is. This is not a townie who knows he knows who the scum is. This is scum playing for an audience. A townie would not argue theory with someone he was this convinced was scum - why would you? What's the point in arguing theory with scum? Unless Trumpet of Doom is either very inexperienced or very childish, there's altogether too much bravado here for this to be anything but acting.

I think this is a bit WIFOMy. Townies should be using theory to their advantage, and I can't think of a reason why they can't argue it with a scum suspect. This also reeks a bit of accusing him of being overaggressive, which, again, isn't a tell.

Also of note is Trumpet of Doom's response to totallynotmafia over his claiming that Panzer was at L-2 when he was at L-1.

Hopefully those are all satisfactory.

Here's that reconciliatory, sucking-up tone again.

This is something I'd probably have to look at in context, which I don't have time for right now.

I think it's pretty obvious that SC is scum, and I believe I've stated why. I'll do a case on dramonic when I wake up in about 10 hours if a townie wants it.

Do a case if you want, but I'm not sure I'll find it convincing as he's in my top half of my town reads.

[lobstermania]

Quid is an equivalent to WTF, but polite.
And it confuses me because mason is a pr. It's weird for scum to leave a pr alive.

But both of the night kills were power roles. Better for them to leave someone alive who still has suspicion on them.
Also, no one has brought up the two night kills. Is it too early to consider it?

[StrangerCoug]

Actually, I theoretically could have by saying the scum are hunting for power roles. (Yes, I count. What the hell ever.)

Now that I think about it, do we have an idea of behind whom kunkstar7 went?

[wolframnhart]

About the Kinkstar thing there are a few options (there might be more so if i miss one please point it out)

1)Hide behind SC because he stated:

Ok, so we have a confirmed to each other town set of masons.

Thinking SC is confirmed town he could have hid behind SC.

2)Hid behind B&B, which is why both died.

3)Hid behind someone else thinking SC would have been killed because he is a mason, which if i understand the role would have kill Kunk as well if SC was targeted.

If he chose option three i have no idea where he would have gone, 7 posts and I don't see much of a hint to that.

[StrangerCoug]

Um, wolframnhart, if I understand the hider role correctly, #1 would implicate me as scum, and you haven't voiced any suspicions of me since I replaced in.

[wolframnhart]

I am just putting all possibilities i could think of out there. The only reason you are number one is because of the comment Kunkstar put up. I still don't believe you to be scum which is why I put up option three.