Mini 922 - Mafia in Mo Town [Game Over]

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote: xReckonerx

I don't believe in policy lynches, I believe in voting scum. Policy lynching, or anyone who would advocate voting someone that might be town, is scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

You see why I always want to lynch them?

lol

So you're not interested in lynching scum then?

[MonkeyMan576]

Wow, random voting much? I think I'll pass for now.

Also, I'm running Ubuntu with XMonad. It's the bomb.

The point of RVS is to gain info on everyone by judging the interplay and natural conversation that voting causes. By choosing not to participate in RVS you are in essance witholding information from town which is definantly not a pro-town thing to do.
I would hate to drag the game out of RVS at such an early stage therefore.

FoS: Sak

There are lots of ways to be pro town without random voting. Participating in RVS is not pro town in and of itself.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think it's way to early in the day to be lynching anyone.

[MonkeyMan576]

I didn't say it was a bad reason, I said that there was no reason. I don't like putting more than a single vote on a player without a reason. Truth be told, I hate putting any votes on anybody without a reason, but second votes are scummier than first votes.

So you're saying it's okay to vote without a reason so long as its not a first vote?

Also, I don't like your statement regarding early lurking, it seems like an excuse not to participate.

Unvote:
Vote: Netopalis

[MonkeyMan576]

Monkey: The reverse, actually, if you read that. I hate all random votes, but random votes which are the only vote on that player are excusable because they are so common.

You can feel free to suspect me for this. I honestly could care less. I've been lynched for it before, but I'm not going to change my playstyle to appear more townie, since that's what scum players do, and since I don't want to ring any false bells based on that. I can link to at least 3-4 games in which I make these same arguments as town, and if you check my Wiki page (Last updated November 2009, I really need to update), I emphasize the same sentiments.

Just because something is common or uncommon is not a logical reason for something to be scummy or not scummy. There are things that are scummy that happen quite frequently, and things that are townish that are quite rare. Lurking, for example, is a frequent scum tactic. Likewise, having made an argument in a previous game does not make you less scummy in this game.

This was absolutely a terrible defence post and I recommend more votes on you with quick haste.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Monkey
Any comments on the more recent developments? What do you think of Sakako?

I've got a scum read on him. His "I suck at scumhunting" comment seems like a lack of commitment to help the town.

[MonkeyMan576]

This was absolutely a terrible defence post and I recommend more votes on you with quick haste.

And what the hell was that?
Seriously, it is almost as if you are requesting people to settle on the neto lynch pronto without any furthur discussion when we have over a fortnight left in this phase. We are barely out of the RVS and you already want a lynch.
I said I had nowhere to place a vote. Well now I do.

Vote: Monkey

I didn't say I wanted a lynch. I said based on his lousy defeece I've got a strong scum read on him. Thats different that wanting an immediate lynch.

[MonkeyMan576]

Monkey and Sakako are a potential scumteam.

Discuss.

Random Player X and Random Player Y are a potential scumteam(as long as its not me). Discuss.

[MonkeyMan576]

Random Player X and Random Player Y are a potential scumteam(as long as its not me). Discuss.

If we assume 3 scum, this is trivially true.

Why would you assume someone is scum based on random selection?

[MonkeyMan576]

Well I don't really care if I get lynched, it will just be annoying having to wait for a while.

Sorry if I can't practice scumhunting - I'm actually trying pretty hard here, you know. If you don't like it, then that's your problem, but I'm actually trying to save you here, Neto.

He doesn't care if he gets lynched, yet he's trying?

[MonkeyMan576]

I agree with Lowell. In particular, these three comments from Monkey didn't sit well with me:

I don't believe in policy lynches, I believe in voting scum. Policy lynching, or anyone who would advocate voting someone that might be town, is scummy.

The question was hypothetical. Answering it with a qualifier was not out of reach. Minimally, answering the question would have been useful in determining what Monkey thinks of other players, etc. Ironically, Monkey later criticizes someone for "not contributing," when he himself avoided contributing for 3 days straight after game start by shooting down questions such as this one.

Just because something is common or uncommon is not a logical reason for something to be scummy or not scummy. There are things that are scummy that happen quite frequently, and things that are townish that are quite rare. Lurking, for example, is a frequent scum tactic. Likewise, having made an argument in a previous game does not make you less scummy in this game.

Disagree. While good play is fairly inelastic definition wise, what constitutes a scumtell varies greatly on meta. Sure, running to meta all the time is bad, but so is saying "we don't look at game history at all, we only look at the godbook of scumtells, it never changes and is always accurate, amen."

Random Player X and Random Player Y are a potential scumteam(as long as its not me). Discuss.

What's the point of throwing this potential discussion under the rug?

Why are you continually taking what I say out of context? I never said meta should be ignored completely, and I never said discussing any possible scum combos should be "thrown under the rug". I just found it fairly self serving to discuss me as part of a scum team after I had voted him, especially considering xReckonerx had been complaining of OMGUS before.

[MonkeyMan576]

My goal is NOT to lynch. I already said that. I can have a strong read on someone and want continuing discussion without lynching at the same time.

I understand it is a natural instinct to be suspicious of those with strong opinions, but it's really not a good reason to vote for someone.

[MonkeyMan576]

Strong opinions alone aren't enough to merit a vote. Strong opinions without a good reason, however, do merit one. And yes, you said that, but you do have a vested interest in lying about your motivation if you are scum.

So you think I might be scum because I might be scum? Talk about circular reasoning.

[MonkeyMan576]

Not at all what I said. I originally said that your motivation appeared to be to lynch. You refuted by saying that you had already said that your motivation was to find scum. I said that you can't say that and expect us to believe you because you might be scum. You are scum because it appears that your motivation is to lynch rather than to find scum.

Anyone might be scum. If you think you are out of the woodwork just because there is a different wagon right now I think you should reevaluate. There's absolutely nothing behind your argument. At least my argument has a solid foundation.

[MonkeyMan576]

You seem to be backtracking a lot

second votes are scummier than first votes.

So you're saying it's okay to vote without a reason so long as its not a first vote?

The reverse, actually, if you read that. I hate all random votes, but random votes which are the only vote on that player are excusable because they are so common.

Then this post acts like you are discouraging scumhunting and attacking the attacker, without really having an argument...

It seems as if your whole point in asking the question to begin with was to ask me a question in which any defense would appear to be weak, allowing you to attack me, which is convenient as I already have the most votes.

I don't assume you're going to give a bad defence, but if you do give one, I'll certainly not hesitate to point it out. This is a flawed argument.

You gave me a reason to suspect you. You attacked the easiest target with weak attacks and set up questions with predictable answers that you knew you could attack.

And then here it sounds like you are again attacking the attacker with a weak defence.

I be fixing them quote tags. ~Kitty

[MonkeyMan576]

How am I discouraging scumhunting? By being against putting 2 votes on somebody for absolutely no reason? That doesn't follow.

Also, if my argument is so weak, I'm not sure why so many others are following me. I think it holds a lot of water - certainly moreso than anybody else I could suspect at this stage.

A populist argument is not an argument you asked for me to give you an independent argument against you, and I gave you one. You're discouraging scumhunting by OMGUSing without really having an argument. Your only defence of your argument is that others have voted the same way, so to me that's not really a defence.

[MonkeyMan576]

My point was that I feel that my argument is strong and others feel that it is strong. You seem to be the only one who thinks that it's so terribly weak.

People may not be making their vote based on your argument. Also, I would be more worried about the player who bases his arguments on being agreeable rather than the person who is willing to actually make his own arguments regardless on weather someone else agrees.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sak does seem a lot more interested in people being nice to him than scumhunting.

[MonkeyMan576]

Ok. Monkey, you are actually not defending the points made against you so much as making points against who is voting for you. You were at the beginning but that discussion has kinda gone off track leaving me with a suspicious gut to add to the case I made. Therefore i am happy with my vote at the moment. I still hold that Saka (See ain't I nice. I read you don't like Sak) is a newb town.

That's not true at all. I voted for Neto first, if anyone is OMGUSing its him. There's not really a case against me so there's not really anything to defend.

[MonkeyMan576]

No but instead of countering the arguements against you, you are having an arguement with neto about how he is playing. I never said there was any OMGUS in there.
So now I ask why four people are compelled to place their votes on you if there is no real case on you?

Don't ask me, ask them. Maybe it seems like the thing to do?

[MonkeyMan576]

Every single case that has been made against you, you have dismissed with a one or two sentance answer describing how it is all false. If you don't want people to vote you then maybe you should try and actually answer their cases properly.

Again, I haven't seen a proper case made against me so I would have no way to "answer a case properly".

[MonkeyMan576]

It's pretty clear that I said that I said that I dislike all random votes, particularly those that land on someone who already has one. He turns it around and says that I don't like random votes unless someone else is already voting for that person. The first position is logical, the one that he tries to make me sound like I am advocating is not.

You clearly said second votes are scummier than first votes. This is the point I was taking issue with. I am not misrepresenting your position.

While I don't really like meta that much, I think that this is a fairly extreme example of when it is acceptible - to show that a player regularly does something out of the norm, and that it shouldn't be taken as a scumtell. He seems extremely determined, though, that nothing that I say will dissuade him from his course.

I never said nothing you say would change my position. It's just that I don't find your arguments convincing. I'm not obligated to change my position just because you present an argument.

Essentially, here, he's trying the old propaganda technique of denying that there's any basis for the actions against him without explaining why there's no basis for those accusations. If he says enough times that those who suspect him are idiots, people will start to believe him - at least, that's what he seems to be banking on.

I'm claiming that the cases against me are weak. Not all cases are strong cases.

Note that he never really pursues either of these cases. He just posts them and leaves them be. I daresay that if I left him alone, he'd take up the wagon against Sakako in a few posts, and when challenged, he'd bring up these very posts as evidence why his switch isn't scummy. Note too his choice of a new target: Sakako, who is also on the defensive.

You're my primary case right now. While I am capable of pursuing more than one case at a time, and am currently doing so, it seems to me you are trying to scare me off of my case against you. This is the first time you've actually posted a formal case, up until now, your cases have consisted of...

As I've explained, every time I try to give substantial content when I have none, I've proven to be wrong. So, I'm going to wait until I have something to say to say it.

This is consistant with your tactic against me, which is to exaggerate your case and try to convince others to join you based on said exaggerated case.

Then here, you make the case that as long as you have meta, you should be able to make any poor argument you want and not be scummy...

You can feel free to suspect me for this. I honestly could care less. I've been lynched for it before, but I'm not going to change my playstyle to appear more townie, since that's what scum players do, and since I don't want to ring any false bells based on that. I can link to at least 3-4 games in which I make these same arguments as town, and if you check my Wiki page (Last updated November 2009, I really need to update), I emphasize the same sentiments.

[MonkeyMan576]

1) You said:

So you're saying it's okay to vote without a reason so long as its

not

a first vote?

A proper characterization of my statement would be

So you're saying it's okay to vote without a reason so long as its a first vote?

Also, I used meta to justify the fact that I don't like to put up random votes or contribute until I have something to say, not to justify the building of a case.

I disagree with both statements. As far as meta, it's still a scummy argument to say that you can use meta as an excuse to present a scummy argument and not expect opposition.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'd be OK with Sakako, I guess. The discussion with Monkey seems to be rather circular in nature at this point, and it seems like we're actually getting somewhere productive with interrogating Sakako.

Unvote, vote: Sakako

Note that Neto criticizes me for supposedly breadcrumbing a Sakako switch(which I wasn't doing), then he himself switches to Sakako.

[MonkeyMan576]

*sigh*

If Sakako is determined not to play.

Unvote:
Vote: Sakako

[MonkeyMan576]

Sakako could be newbie town or newbie scum, but im leaning newbie scum, mostly not only because of his early play behavior, but because he and Neto seem very reluctant to attack each other on anything, increasing the likelyhood that they are scum partners imho. I think this is poor scum play rather than newbie town play. Townies are usually more prone to disagree with each other, especially considering the level of scumminess both of them have shown.

[MonkeyMan576]

Sakako could be newbie town or newbie scum, but im leaning newbie scum, mostly not only because of his early play behavior, but because he and Neto seem very reluctant to attack each other on anything, increasing the likelyhood that they are scum partners imho. I think this is poor scum play rather than newbie town play. Townies are usually more prone to disagree with each other, especially considering the level of scumminess both of them have shown.

Uhm... what? I voted Neto right at the start. Sure, it was a flimsy reason, but it was still an attack. Don't misrepresent me.

I never said you had never attacked Neto, I said you were reuluctant to tattack him, so it look like you are misrepping me.

[MonkeyMan576]

Someone mentioned Neto as likely scum recently and I can see some logic in it. Unfortunately, I'm so lazy right now that I don't feel like finding who said it.

That was me...

[MonkeyMan576]

Okay. I'm not meaning to be defeatist. I should probably play a few more newbie games before trying to play with the big guys, but here's what I'm thinking.

xReck - most probably town. Either that, or very good scum. He's been hunting pretty much from the get-go, and that's good. I like that play.

Neto - more likely town than not. Just a gut feeling for now.

Kyle - not sure what to think. I'd like for him to provide a link to the game which he's using as meta for Monkey.

Monkey - quite possibly scum. I don't really have any new reasons for this, but I really don't like the way he shifted the discussion from him as scum to random x as scum.

Almaster - not quite sure here either.
Lowell - likewise.

DRK - Quite possibly town, for same scumhunting reasons as xReck.

Esp - possibly town. Making some good attempts at hunting.

Bob, Nik - possibly scum, lurking somewhat.

Hito - unsure. Possibly town though, making some good cases against me.

If I've forgotten anyone, please let me know.

You seem to think that most of your attackers are town. Why do you think so?

He's seemingly too scummy to be scum. I know people think it's a null tell or logical fallacy

I know where you're coming from with this and it's been giving me some trouble too. It's starting to remind me a bit of GreenDude from that game where you were fisherman. I still think Sakako is scum though.

Someone mentioned Neto as likely scum recently and I can see some logic in it. Unfortunately, I'm so lazy right now that I don't feel like finding who said it.

Sakako's recent posts of trying to narrow it down to either Monkey or kyle are very scummy. False dichotomy much? To make it even better, they blatantly piggybacked off Reckoner's suspicions.

I agree with these sentiments. It might be a bit much to think that Neto, Sakako and Kyle99 are ALL scum, but I'm pretty sure one of them are. I've played with kyle99 as scum in another game and if I remember he wasn't incredibly active. My top 3 scum at this point are Neto, Kyle and Sakako although I recognize the possibility of lurker scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

Kyle only seems to be interested in posting if someone directly asks him a question or if someone is suspecting him. Active lurking at its finest.

Unvote:
Vote: Kyle99

[MonkeyMan576]

Kyle only seems to be interested in posting if someone directly asks him a question or if someone is suspecting him. Active lurking at its finest.

Unvote:
Vote: Kyle99

I don't post unless I have something to say. Different than active lurking. I already stated who I think is scum, so unless someone asked me something, why should I post?

So you don't think townspersons have an obligation to forumulate their own opinions, observation, and analysis independent of others questions?

[MonkeyMan576]

Kyle only seems to be interested in posting if someone directly asks him a question or if someone is suspecting him. Active lurking at its finest.

Unvote:
Vote: Kyle99

I don't post unless I have something to say. Different than active lurking. I already stated who I think is scum, so unless someone asked me something, why should I post?

So you don't think townspersons have an obligation to forumulate their own opinions, observation, and analysis independent of others questions?

Yes I do, I already stated them. If someone posted something that I had an opinion on, I would post that opinion.

Can you show the last time you posted an opinion that wasn't when someone asked you a question or was suspecting you?

[MonkeyMan576]

Nikanor wagon =/= productive

Why not? Nikanor is worse than Kyle right now, IMO.

From what I undersetand, Nikanor's lurking is consistant with his town meta, so how is he worse?

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry, wrong link. Disregard last post.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 82#2109882

Sorry, dude, that was in responce to his suspicions of you.

[MonkeyMan576]

People have been suspecting me for a majority of the game. How can I provide a time I posted something when people weren't suspecting me?

That's my point. You only post in responce to others opinions, you dont make your own observations.

[MonkeyMan576]

kyle, you really need to learn how to play mafia. Only posting when you're asked a question is the worst goddamn strategy ever.

Yet youre still on the niko wagon?

[MonkeyMan576]

Sorry didn't see you had voted kyle already, reck

[MonkeyMan576]

Nika Niko, same diff:P

[MonkeyMan576]

Uh..He called the Nikanor votes a failwagon.

I thought he was calling it productive, but I probably misunderstood his symbol laden post.

[MonkeyMan576]

Unvote, Vote: kyle99

What. The. Fuck.

Nikanor wagon =/= productive

kyle, you really need to learn how to play mafia. Only posting when you're asked a question is the worst goddamn strategy ever.

Yet youre still on the niko wagon?

Sorry didn't see you had voted kyle already, reck

I voted kyle forever ago. I don't understand this whatsoever. I'm resisting every urge in my body to put a vote down on you because you're either not paying attention as town or scum loosely paying attention and trying to twist things into scumminess that isn't there.

mountain out of a molehill much? The vote was pages ago and an honest mistake, given that you were commenting on other wagons.

[MonkeyMan576]

Oh and Monkey. The fact that you jumped on Kyle straight after me has been noted.

Ok, I'll make sure I get third credit behind you and Reck when kyle turns out scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

I await with bated breath...

[MonkeyMan576]

@hito: I'd like to get your reads on Monkey, Kyle, and Sakako at this stage in the game.

@Monkey: how sure are you that kyle is scum?

I'd say about 80% sure. I played with him as scum, and from what I remember he lurked then too.

[MonkeyMan576]

Maybe if you participated you'd be "more into it"?

FOS: Nikanor

[MonkeyMan576]

Why Monkey over the other two? You spend this whole post talking about not liking Sakako's hopping, then point out Monkey's quick vote hop, but you say nothing about kyle. And, by your own logic, Sakako should be equally as viable as MonkeyMan... what makes MM's hopping scummier than Sak's?

Maybe it's that Monkey's scumminess is fresher in my mind. MM's hopping isn't scummier than Sak's, but his shift in opinion about meta (as pointed out by Almaster) definitely is.
I would be happy with Sak as well, but when I'd just finished reading those pages to catch up, Monkey was at the front of my mind. I didn't like his earlier dismissal of points against him, and now this. It's a very slight preference of him over Sak, but it's there.

Kyle hasn't done enough to seem out-and-out scummy to me. He's been accused of lurking and only posting to respond, which does seem true. However, just from this game he doesn't seem all that scummy to me. The reason I would be happy for a lynch on him is that so many people have taken stances against him, hopped on and off the wagon, called for his lynch for meta reasons etc etc. It would be a good informational lynch. That is the aspect of DRK's post that I agreed with.

Just to clarify, I never changed my opinion about meta, my opinion is, that meta shouldnt be used as the sole basis of defending yourself. There's nothing wrong with using meta as a means of understanding playstyles. In Kyle's case, I have played with him before, so it would be poor judgement on my part not to use meta to analyze his performance. Neto however, was using a meta defence as the only way to defend himself. So there is nothing inconsistant about my position.

[MonkeyMan576]

Just to clarify, I never changed my opinion about meta, my opinion is, that meta shouldnt be used as the sole basis of defending yourself. There's nothing wrong with using meta as a means of understanding playstyles. In Kyle's case, I have played with him before, so it would be poor judgement on my part not to use meta to analyze his performance. Neto however, was using a meta defence as the only way to defend himself. So there is nothing inconsistant about my position.

So if you use meta, it's OK, but if other people do, it's not? I don't see the difference between you using meta to attack and exonerate people and Neto using it to defend himself. Either way, at best, you're advocacy shifting, as this "clarification" has been

completely

unclear until right now. At worst, you're still being hypocritical.

No, you're not understanding my position. I'm saying meta shouldn't be used as the SOLE means of defending yourself. That's different than combining different analytical methods for a defence or attack.

[MonkeyMan576]

*shrugs* My only point was that I don't like to participate in RVS and that I do it in all of my games. I didn't even say that you had to find it that authoritative.

Then would you have a counterargument to someone who found not participating in RVS scummy?

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't see why it's scummy to begin with. Players who know that they aren't very good at it should stay out of it. Townies are to only act in a pro-town manner. My staying out of the RVS is an extension of that duty.

How can you be bad at RVS? You vote someone random...and lol and the Sakako vote. I would be extremely suspicious of anyone who adds to my wagon from here on out.

[MonkeyMan576]

Analogy: I got lynched once for hammering the wrong person, so I'm never going to hammer again.

Is this good or bad logic?

[MonkeyMan576]

ITT, Monkey tries to forcibly make a null tell look scummy.

Bad logic is scummy.

[MonkeyMan576]

and lol and the Sakako vote. I would be extremely suspicious of anyone who adds to my wagon from here on out.

This kind of attitude is pretty annoying, quite frankly. I don't have any particularly large reason to think you're scum but if I did I sure wouldn't like the fact that you've basicially set yourself up to OMGUS the next person on your wagon.

Sakakos vote was a lot more annoying. I have every right to point it out.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm really not seeing what I have done that is scummy, I've been doing my best to be active and scumhunt. I starting to lean towards a Sakako lynch. I dont buy the newbie town argument. Hes been pretty scummy all around.

[MonkeyMan576]

It sounds like its already been decided that ill be lynched regardless of my flip, so why claim?

[MonkeyMan576]

Monkey is a tricky analysis. I really don't like how his response to everything is pretty much to sarcastically dismiss the attacks against him as without merit. That's a classic scumplay. Also, as mentioned earlier, he does tend to misrepresent people a lot. That could either be intentional or unintentional, I'm not sure. It's true that he's never voted for anybody that it didn't feel that there would be a strong bandwagon on, and it's true that for much of the early game, aside from these light attacks to justify his votes, he was inactive.

I didn't dismiss the attacks. I said they were baseless.

What you are doing is taking Neto vs. Monkey and mistakingly applying it to my whole play. You think I dismissed YOU, and you think I misrepped YOU. You're completely ignoring any interactions I've had with anyone else, for the most part.

And I built a more than decent case against you, which i felt was much stronger than your supposed case against me.

Also, I already explained that the Sakako vote against me was very weak, fishy, and scummy, and that any subsequent votes should be taken with extra scrutiny. I stand by that statement.

[MonkeyMan576]

It sounds like its already been decided that ill be lynched regardless of my flip, so why claim?

Lazy-scum (I mean, nothing new here), you could at least make some sort of believable claim that would make town think a whole lot differently about you.

Someone hammer this guy, please.

You're calling me lazy. This is laughable...

Unvote:
Vote: Sakako

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm a

Jack of all Trades

you'd better not lynch me...

[MonkeyMan576]

Not really an unlikely fake claim - think about it...

Claim RB for the vig, doc result can never be confirmed, claim inno on inv, and I dunno what the fourth would be.

Monkey, what are your four abilities?

Investigate, Track, Watch, Protect

I can use each one once.

[MonkeyMan576]

That's not true at all. I just assumed that four was the standard amount. I've never played in a game with a jack of all trades so I wouldnt know.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, Kyle, if you had suggested Lowell as a good lynch target for today then I would have done exactly the same thing. I'm just trying to hurry up and get some information - there are only a few days left before deadline.

Yes, call me scummy if you like. But that's the fact - I really don't have any idea of who I should be voting for, at this moment in time.

You seem really concerned about who you SHOULD be voting for, rather than who you think is scum...

[MonkeyMan576]

Ahem.

Who I should be voting for = who is scum.

And since you're pretty much in the clear, Monkey, I'm ruling you out. Thus, I have no idea who is scum = I have no idea who I should be voting for.

I would hope so.

[MonkeyMan576]

Wow, if I'm telling the truth you dont believe me and lynch a power role and if I'm scum you punish me for having a good fakeclaim. This is good reasoning.

[MonkeyMan576]

That is poking holes in an argument.

[MonkeyMan576]

Okay you guys are just not trying obviously. You're doing anything possible to avoid actually having to think about whats going on.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well I guess you don't know me very well. I don't really alter my meta based on my role.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well Neto's vote is based on the principal that I should.

[MonkeyMan576]

There wasn't a case made against me. Reck said I've "been scummy the whole game" and "His fake claim would be too good"

I don't agree with either of those points and he hasn't backed up his argument.

[MonkeyMan576]

Its a very weak case, like I said. More like an excuse case than anything else.

[MonkeyMan576]

I already said how its a weak case.

You're saying "It's not easily counterclaimed", and "its too good of a fakeclaim" as the basis of your argument. That has nothing to do with if its a true or false claim.

[MonkeyMan576]

That's because no one has made an actual decent case against me. :shrug: I'm not going to treat something as a good case when its not.

[MonkeyMan576]

Actually the odds are less than 50-50 me being scum since there are probably 9 town and 3 scum.

[MonkeyMan576]

@DRK, I see you saw that error there, however it didn't really matter as they were both good percentages anyway (i.e. sum to 12.5%.) Like I said, the only reason I'm not voting for Monkey any more is because of the claim. Think of it this way; a townie is going to die tonight whether we lynch him or not, and we can always figure out whether he's actually scum tomorrow.

Also, kyle, how come you're the only person saying that? No-one else seems to have taken much notice of that post.

How do you know a townie is going to die tonight? Why couldn't we kill scum?

[MonkeyMan576]

3 players confirm that JOAT is almost always 4 powers and people are still making votes based on this? Talking about reaching...

[MonkeyMan576]

When I flip town, Sakuko, Lowell and Neto are my top 3 suspects, Not only are Neto and Lowell on the tail end of an extremly scum driven lynch, but the logic is lousy.

Oh, and I'm actually a

vanilla townie

. I lied because vanilla townie claims usually get lynched for being not useful anyways. I wasn't taking leads from Reck at all, and my flip will prove it. I wouldn't blame the town for lynching me because of the time left, but if you think you can get Sakuko or Lowell, especially, I would try.

At the least, the end of this wagon has provided a great deal of information for the town, this is one of the scummiest wagons I've seen in a long time.

[MonkeyMan576]

I just said I wouldn't blame you for not believing me or lynching me. I'm just trying to be as helpful as I can while I'm still alive.

[MonkeyMan576]

Most scum boards don't talk during the day? Does yours?

[MonkeyMan576]

No, I was referring to his comment that I was checking with my supposed scumbuddies during the day.

[MonkeyMan576]

Um...hello?

Unless you know they see "Hey we should make Monkey use track tonight!" and he's like "Oh fuck I can't bullshit that" so he's like "o guyz i was jk ab the claim lulz"

Why are you getting so excitable? Worried you made a slip?:)

[MonkeyMan576]

Oh, you meant the town when you said "they see"...you should be more clear rather than using these weird phrasing and abbreviations...

I wasn't worried about proving my "powers", I would have just claimed to be roleblocked.

[MonkeyMan576]

...

...

...

Grakbal?

PFbaba?

Lagaebame?

Scrabakeanceahceh?

You fakeclaimed as town and would have claimed to have been roleblocked? And you STILL don't get why we want to lynch you?

How many times do I have to repeat that I wouldn't blame "you" for lynching me. You're expecting some type of hyper defense and youre not going to get one.

[MonkeyMan576]

Guys I'm flipping town.