*bows*Nikanor wrote: also know AlmasterGM from that newbie game where he won as scum versus DTM and tubby.
A bit defensive and trying hard to please, eh?Sakako wrote:Wow. I can't win. In the last two games I played, I screwed up the RVS cause I kept it going. Now I don't want to vote, and I'm getting voted for?
Is this a serious vote?DRK wrote:Vote: kyle99
As early as it is, he already looks like he's floating along.
The question was hypothetical. Answering it with a qualifier was not out of reach. Minimally, answering the question would have been useful in determining what Monkey thinks of other players, etc. Ironically, Monkey later criticizes someone for "not contributing," when he himself avoided contributing for 3 days straight after game start by shooting down questions such as this one.Monkey wrote:I don't believe in policy lynches, I believe in voting scum. Policy lynching, or anyone who would advocate voting someone that might be town, is scummy.
Disagree. While good play is fairly inelastic definition wise, what constitutes a scumtell varies greatly on meta. Sure, running to meta all the time is bad, but so is saying "we don't look at game history at all, we only look at the godbook of scumtells, it never changes and is always accurate, amen."Just because something is common or uncommon is not a logical reason for something to be scummy or not scummy. There are things that are scummy that happen quite frequently, and things that are townish that are quite rare. Lurking, for example, is a frequent scum tactic. Likewise, having made an argument in a previous game does not make you less scummy in this game.
What's the point of throwing this potential discussion under the rug?Random Player X and Random Player Y are a potential scumteam(as long as its not me). Discuss.
First, why should people have to read a ton of context for what you say to make sense? Just say what you mean the first time. Second, yes you did. You said, "Having made an argument in a previous game does not make you less scummy in this game." Explain to me how that is NOT a denial of meta.Monkey wrote:Why are you continually taking what I say out of context? I never said meta should be ignored completely,
Once again, that's not what you said. Your comment was a mocking dismissal. Moreover, even if it was self-serving to a degree, so what? Why does that make it an irrelevant topic for discussion? You could point out that it's self serving without the condescension.That and I never said discussing any possible scum combos should be "thrown under the rug". I just found it fairly self serving to discuss me as part of a scum team after I had voted him, especially considering xReckonerx had been complaining of OMGUS before.
For some reason, this sounded really ingenuine to me.Netopalis wrote:Please be advised that this is L-2. If we go to L-1, I'm taking off my vote, just because I don't quite feel absolutely comfortable with this yet. I think Monkey may be the play today, but I want to hear more from him in response to all of this before we do anything.
I strongly agree with this. The only thought in the back of my mind is that he is could actually be a legitimately depressed emo teenager who wants validation, in which case his behavior would be more understandable. This theory is slightly supported by his strange avatar. He has a pretty detailed game history wiki page and he's already been scum twice - anyone with some spare time want to do a bit of meta research?xRECKONERx wrote:Sak's motivations are scummy. Townies should worry about scumhunting, no standing out or blending in.
I'm not in love with meta either, but if he actually is what I suggested, then, well, his play would make logical sense.Netopalis wrote:Almaster: I did a quick iso glance-through of his 2 games. Remarkably similar play...But, I don't really have a town read to compare it with, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, I'm not really a huge fan of using meta.
It'd actually be L-2, not L-1. Either way, though, I don't really understand the whole "L-1" paranoia. Sure, Kyle was lurking and his reasons were copy/paste, but why is him usingxRECKONERx wrote:You lurk your ass off, then come in and put Sakako at L-1 by repeating the same argument used by other people (which is, IMO, the WORST reason to be lynching him at the moment).Noother content in the game whatsoever.
Sakako is still scummy (and not because he's, as some of you put it, "not playing"). But kyle's L-1 vote is waaaay more deserving of a vote right now.
This sounds to me like a tricksy way of saying "I backed off Monkey because the wagon because it was less popular and got on the Sakako wagon because it was more popular." Regardless of what your intentions are, though, who do you actually think is more scummy - Monkey or Sakako (e.g., if both were at L-1, who would you hammer)?Net wrote:Almaster: The reason that I backed off of the Monkey wagon is actually option (c), that I didn't feel that the questioning was productive. We were talking in circles, and it didn't seem like either of us were going to budge. Rather than wasting the town's attention on a pointless circular argument, I switched over to Sakako, who I also feel has a fairly strong case against him. In the meantime, I'll be watching Monkey and, if I feel that I have anything to put a stronger case on him, I'll be renewing the attack there.
If it's a lack of evidence, then why do you think Monkey is more likely to be scum? Logically, wouldn't the player you think is scummiest have the most evidence piling against them? On the other point, why does Monkey need to "budge" for you to have your vote on him? With the exception of (maybe) Sakako, since when do scum lie down and concede cases against them?Netopalis wrote:Well, that's a tricky question. I think that Monkey is more likely to be scum, but I also think that I can't prove it yet. I'd hammer him in that situation. The reason that I switched was due to a lack of evidence and our conversation was making it fairly obvious that he wasn't going to budge any time soon.
I could understand this mentality in some games, but this game has a lot of good D1 content. If we lynch Kyle because he is, in fewer words, "hard to read" and he flips town, the lynch will have been a complete waste and we will have gotten absolutely nowhere.xRECOKNERx wrote: kyle99 lynch might not be as informational... but it'd remove that WIFOM target for the rest of the game. EVERY game I've played with kyle99 has turned into him either being a scum lynch or a mislynch at some point. Never a night kill.
Oh, so you like meta now? How does that interact with this post:MonkeyMan576 wrote:From what I undersetand, Nikanor's lurking is consistant with his town meta, so how is he worse?AlmasterGM wrote:Why not? Nikanor is worse than Kyle right now, IMO.xRECKONERx wrote:Nikanor wagon =/= productive
Yeah, I don't know why I was ever duped into taking my vote of Monkey.Monkey wrote:Just because something is common or uncommon is not a logical reason for something to be scummy or not scummy. There are things that are scummy that happen quite frequently, and things that are townish that are quite rare. Lurking, for example, is a frequent scum tactic. Likewise, having made an argument in a previous game does not make you less scummy in this game.
0%. I am completely unconvinced of this Kyle wagon right now. I have already explained why I think lynching him because he's "hard to read" is a bad play. Given the fact that there are plenty of other people acting extremely scummy (Monkey and Sak), I see no reason why Kyle cannot wait. Monkey isn't even trying to explain himself in response to anything I say, he's just letting it get buried in all the lotsofposting and hoping the wagon on Kyle will take over.Espeonage wrote:AGM and xRx, what do both of you rate the possibility of a kyle-Monkey-??? scumteam at this point?
I ask you two as you seem both seem to have opinions on Monkey as well as the other main wagons.
So if you use meta, it's OK, but if other people do, it's not? I don't see the difference between you using meta to attack and exonerate people and Neto using it to defend himself. Either way, at best, you're advocacy shifting, as this "clarification" has beenMonkeyMan576 wrote:Just to clarify, I never changed my opinion about meta, my opinion is, that meta shouldnt be used as the sole basis of defending yourself. There's nothing wrong with using meta as a means of understanding playstyles. In Kyle's case, I have played with him before, so it would be poor judgement on my part not to use meta to analyze his performance. Neto however, was using a meta defence as the only way to defend himself. So there is nothing inconsistant about my position.
Wow, this is pretty cocky for somebody who is having trouble even keeping up with the thread.Nikanor wrote:So, I'm thinking at least one of Almaster and Neto are scum. They're my two top suspects, and it would be weird for me to be wrong twice, I think.
So was Monkey until extremely recently ... but you don't find him scummy at all. Hrm.Nik wrote:Neto is literally *shrug*ing off his attackers, which is ridiculously scummy, especially when I know that he doesn't do this as town.
If this is THE #1 scumtell you have seen this entire game, which I presume it is since your vote is on me, you are clearly not paying attention to the game at all. EVEN IF my post is suspect, which it's not at all, it's definitely not the most important thing that's happened. And to answer your argument: No, I'm not concerned because I don't think Kyle is scum, and I don't think the target is town. And, even if I am wrong, which I doubt, it still doesn't make L-2 bad. TWO additional people would have to wagon for a quicklynch to happen, and if they do, they are obvscum and will die accordingly.Nik wrote:What the hell is that? Do you not care about the possibility that the guy you're wagoning might be town, and that the person hopping on the wagon may be opportunistic scum?Almaster wrote:Either way, though, I don't really understand the whole "L-1" paranoia. Sure, Kyle was lurking and his reasons were copy/paste, but why is him using reasons we think are good to put someone we think is scummy at L-1 so god awful in and of itself?
Wow, this is pretty cocky for somebody who is having trouble even keeping up with the thread.Nikanor wrote:So, I'm thinking at least one of Almaster and Neto are scum. They're my two top suspects, and it would be weird for me to be wrong twice, I think.
So was Monkey until extremely recently ... but you don't find him scummy at all. Hrm.Nik wrote:Neto is literally *shrug*ing off his attackers, which is ridiculously scummy, especially when I know that he doesn't do this as town.
If this is THE #1 scumtell you have seen this entire game, which I presume it is since your vote is on me, you are clearly not paying attention to the game at all. EVEN IF my post is suspect, which it's not at all, it's definitely not the most important thing that's happened. And to answer your argument: No, I'm not concerned because I don't think Kyle is scum, and I don't think the target is town. And, even if I am wrong, which I doubt, it still doesn't make L-2 bad. TWO additional people would have to wagon for a quicklynch to happen, and if they do, they are obvscum and will die accordingly.Nik wrote:What the hell is that? Do you not care about the possibility that the guy you're wagoning might be town, and that the person hopping on the wagon may be opportunistic scum?Almaster wrote:Either way, though, I don't really understand the whole "L-1" paranoia. Sure, Kyle was lurking and his reasons were copy/paste, but why is him using reasons we think are good to put someone we think is scummy at L-1 so god awful in and of itself?
Frankly, yes. You are much more likely to have a grasp on what's going on if you are following the thread closely AND doing re-reads rather than just jumping in and reading a ton of content. There are psychological warrants for this. This is evidenced by the quote below.Nik wrote:Do you think that my ability to keep up with the thread has an impact on my ability to find scum? If so, why?
Case in point of you not being 100% in the know. Go re-read the thread. I address Monkey multiple times, he doesn't reply. I've pointed this out before, too.Nik wrote:Where? I saw no *shrug*s coming from Monkey.
No. And even if this were the case, it does nothing to address the fact that your attack is incredibly weak compared to the rest of the thread. It seems to me like, in your probably-rushed-re-read, you just picked somebody that you wanted to paint as scummy, picked one thing they said, and went gogogoo.So, assuming the person who was wagoned was scum, you don't think that maayyybe kyle could have been bussing by voting him with no reason of his own?
Nik wrote:kyle, want to join me on the Almaster wagon?
LMAO, owned. So yeah, AFA the rest of the game goes, Monkey is still scummy and I still like my vote. We are close to the deadline, though, so activity needs to pick up and we need to hear from anybody who isn't posting actively.kyle99 wrote:Nope
Meta FTL.Netopalis wrote:*shrugs* I don't often bus. Also, like I said yesterday, I work much, much better on D2. There's more to analyze and it plays more to my style.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've always been under the impression that this was more of a scumtell than a towntell. Since when do scumbuddies try to establish strong ties between each other?Net wrote:Finally, I don't think you can see a strong connection between us on D1. Regardless, Lowell's the play today, I feel.
Net wrote:Take it as you will. I've seen scum stick together and I've seen them distance. It's still something that I'm not going to seriously bother defending myself against until the flip.
This still makes NO sense to me. You posted very coherent analysis of whether or not we should lynch Monkey near the end of D1. You said:hito wrote:I was 'avoiding' the Monkey wagon because I was having time issues. 'After the fact' was the first time I had a chance to really digest it, and kyle's hammer cut that short. What motivation would I have as scum to avoid the Monkey wagon that I wouldn't have as town?
So your failure to be on the Monkey wagon had absolutely nothing to do with you not being able to process the information, which is what you are trying to claim now. If that were the case, then you would've posted something like, "hey guys, I need to catch up on the Monkey wagon before I make a decision." Not "I AGREE." No, your reason for not being on the wagon was, as Netopalis pointed out, because you still wanted to make a post and look pro-town that day.hito wrote:Lynch all liars, man. We're taking down monkey today.
Your advocacy here is crystal clear. "I want to lynch Monkey, but I want to get a good post in first." Not only is this self-admittedly selfish, but it has other implications as well. You probably realized that simply waltzing in and hammering Monkey after playing lurk-o-matic the entire day would look like opportunistic bandwagoning and appear scummy as hell,hito wrote:That being said. I don't want to do it quite yet. My reason is, granted, a pretty selfish one - I haven't had much time to get down good solid content in this game and I really don't want the day to end without me having anything down because I know if I don't add anything that's one less townie pushing the game and the less townies pushing the game the easier it is for scum to do so.
There was absolutely no way to successfully pass off avoiding the Monkey wagon as protown, so I don't see why he should get town points for that.hito wrote:Not because he avoided it, but because he was, for all intents and purposes, "on the wagon". He never tried to pass off his avoidance of the Monkey wagon as pro-town, which is IMO just a few minor town points in his favor. But like I said, his reasoning for not hammering Monkey in the first place was awful, because there's nothing he could post D1 that he couldn't post D2, so the scum/town points kinda cancel each other out.
[Chance of Kyle being scum with Monkey]0%. I am completely unconvinced of this Kyle wagon right now. I have already explained why I think lynching him because he's "hard to read" is a bad play. Given the fact that there are plenty of other people acting extremely scummy (Monkey and Sak), I see no reason why Kyle cannot wait. Monkey isn't even trying to explain himself in response to anything I say, he's just letting it get buried in all the lotsofposting and hoping the wagon on Kyle will take over.
No, I'm not concerned because I don't think Kyle is scum
So, assuming the person who was wagoned was scum, you don't think that maayyybe kyle could have been bussing by voting him with no reason of his own?No. And even if this were the case, it does nothing to address the fact that your attack is incredibly weak compared to the rest of the thread. It seems to me like, in your probably-rushed-re-read, you just picked somebody that you wanted to paint as scummy, picked one thing they said, and went gogogoo.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with kyle's hammer.
kyle, want to join me on the Almaster wagon?Nope