Open 197- Lunch is over...

[Snakenstein]

I know. I'm just waiting for something scummy to happen, imo.

Plenty scummy has happened. Sometimes what not happening is what makes

Also, the last post Snake had in QT makes me think he's town.

Kunkstar7, I'll reveal all tomorrow. When it'll be necessary for a pro-town player to lynch their lover to win.

Snakenstein, I'm not aiming for most cunning manipulator at the scummies so why bother manipulating?

Remember scum have the reach of 4 players. If both scum are good manipulators then they only need one vote swing. That means that the decisions can't be made as a pair. Pairs = Mafia win.
I'm treating it as I know:
A - There are two Mafia
B - If you are mafia, I must vote for your lynch tomorrow or all other townies today.
C - If you are town, you cannot suspect me of being mafia, for tomorrow you would lynch me.
D - If you are town, we have a 2/3rds chance of hitting scum.

I am not following this at all. I have asked Max in QT to please clarify.

[kunkstar7]

Just the last part went kind of over my head, other than scum having the potential reach of four players.

[farside22]

kunkstar can you give a general view on the players in the game. Anyone strike yu as scum and why?

[gameplayah]

So I would like to hear more about their thoughts on the players in the game so far (they being morph, kun, clay and gameplayer)

I would like to get some leads on who's bad. I don't have anything but bad vibes right now.
If there's a cop in the game, I think they should report their investigations to the town. Because if we know one person's innocent, their partner could still be mafia.

But I'm confused about how we could get to the mafia without killing their partners.

[farside22]

So I would like to hear more about their thoughts on the players in the game so far (they being morph, kun, clay and gameplayer)

I would like to get some leads on who's bad. I don't have anything but bad vibes right now.
If there's a cop in the game, I think they should report their investigations to the town. Because if we know one person's innocent, their partner could still be mafia.

But I'm confused about how we could get to the mafia without killing their partners.

There is no cop in this set up. Please look at the first page. This is an open set up were there is 2 scum and 6 town players.

[animorpherv1]

@ farside, I have nothing I can add. I'm confused on the Gayle wagon, so if someone would clear that up, that'd be great, and I can comment on it.

[animorpherv1]

EBWOP: Wrong game, hahaha.

But idk seriosuly ATM.

[kunkstar7]

Are you honestly not paying that much attention to this thread?

[Snakenstein]

But I'm confused about how we could get to the mafia without killing their partners.

We can't, we're eliminating pairs. Each time we lynch, we necessarily lose at least one town. Max has been making a good point (with which I agree) that each person must try and make their most informed assessment of their partner and recognize that they may have to die to lynch a scum. That information obviously gets vetted through the whole group, but the partners are theoretically in the best position to assess their lover's allegiance. So forget the personal perspective and consider your collective allegiance. In a sense, your pair is either town or scum. This is not literally true, but effectively you live or die based on your pair. Your win condition is definitely not tied to your individual survival, but to town or scum survival based on your role. This became very apparent to me when Max presented his strategy to me (even though the specifics were incorrect in my opinion).

[Pomegranate]

Votecount:

kunkstar7 (0)
clayman (0)
Max (0)
farside22 (1) gameplayah
animorpherv1 (3) farside22, kunkstar7, Max
Sanhora (0)
gameplayah (2) animorpherv1, Sanhora
Snakenstein (0)

Not Voting: clayman, Snakenstein

It takes five votes to lynch.

Deadline is February 15, 2010 at 6:00 PM EST.

Yay, posts! (Your mod is proud!)

[Snakenstein]

Snake what is your view on the other players in the game so far?

I want to at least acknowledge the question here. I don't feel like there is a lot to go on at this point.

I only have 4 impressions so far. First and most obvious is animopherv, though I am not presenting anything that others haven't already presented. The inattentiveness to the game is most certainly going to be a detriment if it is not fixed. Animopherv will serve the best interests of town if he/she makes a concerted effort to honestly establish the allegiance of his partner. This will involve being attentive to the QT and the thread. Animo already seems to indicate an inability to be attentive to just half of the task. This does in no way point animo as scum, but it certainly paints him/her as a liability. If he/she is involved in a town-town pair, I believe our probability of success is greatly diminished. In other words. Animo, if you are town, get your damn head in the game. (Admittedly, I've been a bit of a recluse as well, so I'm in a bit of a glass house at the moment. I expect to contribute more, though).

Second, I've already presented a bit about Max. I believe his heart is in the right place, but I'm not convinced about his logic. I still need a bit more interaction, but as I had stated earlier, the initial strategy really struck a strong "town" chord with me. That has diminished some with his last post, but I still maintain a positive town position for him.

Sanhora appears to be town to me. He/she seemed cooperative with the publicizing pairings discussion, so that represents a town perspective to me. Sanhora also seemed to agree with me about being reluctant to reveal pairings, so that may have tainted my outlook. I still do not maintain that keeping the pairings secret was necessarily the correct strategy, but I certainly think that discussing beforehand was absolutely the correct strategy. At a minimum, we stood to gain information from those discussions.

Farside22 seems to be scumhunting in the best interests of town. Seems to be asking pointed and relevant questions. I have a positive feel from that.

Others, I really haven't gotten a sense one way or another.

[clayman]

I've found it a bit difficult to get reads on people because the whole discussion has been centered around the idea of whether or not we should claim. My stance on that has always been neutral because I've never seen the advantage or disadvantage to it until now where we can discuss things like the possibility of lynching your own partner if you think there scum.

And considering that my partner is the one with the most votes I will address my view. If I think my partner is scum I am more than willing to vote for them because its in the best interest of the town. The case on my partner seems to be that he really doesn't appear to give a damn. And his activity in QT has been even less than here. But in my experience it seems those who act uninterested typically aren't the scum. But he could be different and if he isn't helpful I am willing to see him as the best option.

I find a lot of other people to be asking the "right questions" but at the same time we're not really getting to far and seem to be dwelling on things that don't matter a ton so I don't know that I automatically trust the people with the questions.

[Snakenstein]

I talked with sanhora a bit to understand his reason's on not claiming. I really don't get it. I think he wanted to see if scum tried to defend another player without knowing pairs. Sanhora also said we played a game before apparently together but I don't remember and when asked he said he didn't remember the game. I don't know why but I found it weird.
so far my feeling on sanhora is I'm not sure to something feels off talking to him but I'm paranoid by nature.

I find this to be an interesting observation. I guess you could make a case (albeit weak) that Sanhora was attempting to "cozy up" by referencing a common history or common ground. I'd be interested to know how many mafia lover games Sanhora has played.

I guess the appropriate initial position in QT would be one of wariness, which I admittedly failed to recognize until now (first lover game). As I reread my QT, I would characterize Max's initial post as wary with a hint of aggressiveness, which I guess is appropriate. (Its really hard to read anything into first posts, especially because they are kind of break-the-ice style postings.) Next, he moved to a questioning of Sanhora which I took to be a disagreement with the "keep the pairs secret" approach. I pointed out that I supported a "discuss before reveal" approach, to which he disagreed. Next we briefly discussed where farside might be going with the line of questioning, and whether it would be productive or counterproductive. Then he moved on to outlining his strategy, which I have already commented on.

[Snakenstein]

Max, how many mafia lover games have you played?

[Max]

Including off site or in alt games a surprisingly large amount. Not lovers games with a precise split like this though.

Right:

I think the best team to lynch is the animo one. Seen no substance at all from either of them. In the past when I've played with him he makes no contribution, this is to an even greater extent. He is scum. I am sure of it.

[Snakenstein]

I'm inclined in that direction as well, though I might be a bit more conservative than my partner. Lets see if animo can come forth and provide something of substance.

In the meantime, I'm having trouble deconstructing the exchange between Sonhora and gameplayah/kunkstar. From what I can tell, kunstar asked in QT if gameplayah was OK to out their pair. Gameplayah responded that it was OK, but was then reluctant to reveal? Is this the way it happened or am I misreading?

[gameplayah]

I wasn't necessarily reluctant. Although I didn't want to be the first to reveal my pair. Turns out some people revealed right at the beginning, but I was skimming and didn't see that.

[Snakenstein]

I wasn't necessarily reluctant. Although I didn't want to be the first to reveal my pair. Turns out some people revealed right at the beginning, but I was skimming and didn't see that.

That didn't really answer the question. Were you still reluctant to reveal after the two of you had agreed that it was OK?

[kunkstar7]

In the meantime, I'm having trouble deconstructing the exchange between Sonhora and gameplayah/kunkstar. From what I can tell, kunkstar asked in QT if gameplayah was OK to out their pair. Gameplayah responded that it was OK, but was then reluctant to reveal? Is this the way it happened or am I misreading?

I think we had a bit of a silent standoff as to who was going to out it, I didn't get to posting it so gameplayah did. I can't answer for any reluctance he may have had or felt, from my perspective I don't see any reluctance.

[farside22]

kunkstar did you question your lover at all in length.
I can't believe how much I feel like we are pulling teeth out of people trying to get feed back on their own lover right now.
This lover pair Civplayah-Kunkstar7 is giving me nothing for feed back but morph is clearly not partipating which, lurking and giving no input either so my vote stands for now.

[Snakenstein]

In the meantime, I'm having trouble deconstructing the exchange between Sonhora and gameplayah/kunkstar. From what I can tell, kunkstar asked in QT if gameplayah was OK to out their pair. Gameplayah responded that it was OK, but was then reluctant to reveal? Is this the way it happened or am I misreading?

I think we had a bit of a silent standoff as to who was going to out it, I didn't get to posting it so gameplayah did. I can't answer for any reluctance he may have had or felt, from my perspective I don't see any reluctance.

Why was sanhora hounding gameplayah about it then? Do you think it was a legitimate complaint?

[Pomegranate]

Votecount:

kunkstar7 (0)
clayman (0)
Max (0)
farside22 (1) gameplayah
animorpherv1 (3) farside22, kunkstar7, Max
Sanhora (0)
gameplayah (2) animorpherv1, Sanhora
Snakenstein (0)

Not Voting: clayman, Snakenstein

It takes five votes to lynch.

Deadline is February 15, 2010 at 6:00 PM EST.

[kunkstar7]

Sanhora was hounding gameplayah about it because of this:

Anyway, if you think that it would help us, then why didn't you tell yours already? By giving your pair, part of town would already get extra information

I realize now why Sanhora asked for times. Gameplayah actually posted a few times after saying he was okay with posting the pair but he did not post the pair. I did not post until after the pair had already been posted. I'm not sure if I can see this as a legitimate complaint as I forgot to ask who wanted to post the pair. It is possible that he was wondering if I wanted to do it or not, I'm not sure how he felt, which is a possible explanation for his delay. As it were Farside, my question in QT isn't being answered, I'm not sure if gameplayah is checking the QT. I'll continue to try and generate discussion to get a better feel for gameplayah. Although with his recent post regarding a cop I feel that he's not the type of person to pay much attention at all.

[Snakenstein]

And considering that my partner is the one with the most votes I will address my view. If I think my partner is scum I am more than willing to vote for them because its in the best interest of the town. The case on my partner seems to be that he really doesn't appear to give a damn. And his activity in QT has been even less than here. But in my experience it seems those who act uninterested typically aren't the scum. But he could be different and if he isn't helpful I am willing to see him as the best option.

Well, you obviously drew the short straw on this one Clayman. Whether you are town or scum, I can't see any way you can paint your pair town without animo being active. The only thing you could attempt would be to suggest that "disinterest = town" as you did above, and that in and of itself seems scummy.

If you are both town, your partner is doing us a great disservice. If either of you are scum, animo is being very helpful.

FOS: Clayman - "disinterest = town"
FOS: Animo - "disinterest"

And I'm fully aware that you can't both be scum I'm holding off on a vote, because I'm really hoping animo will become active.

[Sanhora]

Will have some time to look into things again, starting tomorrow.