Mafia 107 - Christmas Time Mafia (Game over)

[RichardGHP]

you obviously know what the definition is...you wont answer because you know I have caught you in a lie...

Oh yeah? Wanna bet?

please explain, what is THE definition of meta.

Look it up in the dictionary or on the Wiki, lazy ass. Why should I have to? Especially when my misdefinition of the word doesn't pertain to current events AT ALL. Please explain why you are pursuing this "meta" argument.

More killing Raven, less arguing over Richard's meta.

QFT.

[Tarballs]

1st Vote Count of Day 4

3 - CCARaven4

(pman5595, ready2rock, RichardGHP)

1 - ready2rock

(curiouskarmadog)

1 - pman5595

(sorasgoof)

5 - Not voting

(Bogre, DocPotter, DizzyIzzyB13, Konowa, CCARaven4)


Prods won't be going out until tomorrow at the earliest, since the day just began.

[curiouskarmadog]

you obviously know what the definition is...you wont answer because you know I have caught you in a lie...

Oh yeah? Wanna bet?

please explain, what is THE definition of meta.

Look it up in the dictionary or on the Wiki, lazy ass. Why should I have to? Especially when my misdefinition of the word doesn't pertain to current events AT ALL. Please explain why you are pursuing this "meta" argument.

More killing Raven, less arguing over Richard's meta.

QFT.

YES IT DOES...I KNOW WHAT META MEANS!!!!

let me ask a different question then...did you know how wiki defined meta when you said that you "metaed" me...

[curiouskarmadog]

also another question.

why are you refusing to answer the meta question? If you want us to think you are protown, why not help out? I am not even voting you, I am voting someone else...I am trying to scum hunt, though, and you are being anti-town..

[RichardGHP]

you are being anti-town..

By not answering someone demanding that I state the definition of a word... because that is the most obvious scumtell ever!

/sarcasm.

[sorasgoof]

How the HELL do you know that he knew already? Answer this ASAP please.

FoS sorasgoof.

Lack of sora vote is attributed to Raven's scum-like actions shown at the top of the post.

You, more than anyone else in this game (well, maybe not CKD), REALLY piss me off. I'm tired of this "ANSWER ME NOW PL0X123" mentality from you. To answer your question, though, I was trying to reinforce the fact that I think he was bussing Navy. What do you have to say to that? Are you going to ask me fifty more questions? Come on, CKD, you ask a few too. I know you're DYING to.

Also, you didn't vote for me because of Raven. What if the Raven situation hadn't happened? You would've voted for me? Just because I put together a case that YOU don't agree with?

Finally, ANYTHING can be any type of "tell," depending on how you see it. I do not agree with you in the slightest that bandwagoning is a null-tell. Also, concern over a lurker is a "MAJOR town-tell?" Another opinion from you; I see it a different way.

Here's my list of questions for you all. I hate doing this, but it seems to be the new thing around here. Oh, and I EXPECT YOU ALL TO ANSWER!@#or ELsE!!!@#1

1. @pman- why haven't you responded to my post?
2. @everyone- who do you think is not town?
3. @Richard- Are you going to answer this question? Either way, continue to question 4.
4. @Richard- Are you going to answer this question? Either way, return to question 3.

[sorasgoof]

Oh, and this whole "meta" argument is REALLY stupid. I don't get what you're arguing about.

[Konowa]

Will be making a post in a few. Snow sucks.

[curiouskarmadog]

Going to explain this exactly…here is my problem.

Earlier in the game, a discussion happened that referenced my playstyle and my title. It was discussed at that time, that I tend to play aggressive and “hot” in most of my games. Richard was a part of this conversation about my “meta”.

For reference sake, a meta defined by wiki is this.

“With respect to the game of Mafia, a player's Meta is the way in which he/she plays the game as each faction. A player with a Town role will play differently than a player with a Mafia role because of the nature of each faction and their method of operation within the game. This difference allows one to review past games that a person in question has played in, with the intention being that you will compare their play in Game X (where they were Mafia/Town) to their play now in order to determine what role they have in the current game. The players that excel at Mafia are able to make their Mafia play mirror their Town play almost identically, therefore neutralizing the ability of others to read their "Meta".”

A “meta” is developed over the course of old games (NOT A CURRENT GAME). You cant “meta” someone based on a current game, because you don’t know their alignment.

So Richard says this in post 1358

ckd, Bogre may be lurking but you are mostly posting inane fluff combined with an aggressive meta. You really havn't been contributing that much, and when you do, it's normally no more than 3 paragraphs and you seem to repeat a lot of things AND bring up irrelevant points.

....
I am now more suspicious of ckd. Aggressive meta is not a valid excuse to affirm your town-alignment and I will not let you use it to your advantage if I decide to build a case on you.

FoS: curiouskarmadog.

Richard, clearly understands what a meta is here. This post raises suspicion because a.) I never used my meta as any type of defense and b.) Why is Richard talking about my meta..has he meta-ed me? C.) in that same post, he unvoted TL (his reasonings were off) SO I ask in post 1366. Because I am not believing anything he is saying I ask...

Richard, have you meta-ed me yourself or are you just going on what everyone else has said? I am curious. In a game everyone scum will manipulate facts and out and out lie, how is it a good plan to listen to anyone? That being said, I do play aggressively (most of the time). The title came, because I tend to play hot and tend to get mad easily.

He IMMEDIATELY hammers and refuses to answer my questions going into the night.

Finally, he post the next day with (1393)

Richard, have you meta-ed me yourself or are you just going on what everyone else has said?

I meta'ed you myself, since a large portion of your rants were directed towards me.

Ok, so he admits to meta-ing me himself and not listening to what other people have to say about my meta. But I don’t believe that. I doubted very seriously that he checked out my old games to confirm that I play aggressive…so I call him on that bullshit.

also, what games did you meta and WHEN did you do it.

he comes back with this gem.

My personal definition of 'meta' is slightly different, so using my definition of the word I meta-ed you from this game alone. If I'm in a future game with any of you, I subjectively change my definition to the general one, and take your previous games' play into account.

He obviously KNOWS what the definition of meta means…when I asked him what the definition was, he knows I have caught him in a lie or mistruth…he starts shutting down…refuses to answer any questions, gets coy…becomes an all around anti-town ass.

My problem is this. He didn’t meta me. He lied. He knows what the definition for a meta (though he wont admit it now). And tried to back pedal with the “I have a different definition” bullshit. Why lie?

What I am trying to do now is figure out if he is lying scum, or an idiot town(classic VI) who got caught being ignorant and trying to look like he is scum hunting when he really isnt.

What is pissing me off is his attitude.


----

also sora, I dont think you are the most scummy atm. People's opinions change...I have no reason to question Dizzy's claim, so if she said you didnt do anything last night...you didnt do anything. You go down a notch....what is funny, is you are busting my balls saying I "tunnelled" you earlier in the game and you are now busting my balls when I dont ask you a question....who is "tunnelling" now?

[Konowa]

For everybody's reference, in the neighbor thread last night I stated that I still believed that mafia would show an active interest in trying to steer votes and discussion away from the Navy vote. I outlined yesterday that TheLonging and Amished both fit this profile. However, I also stated that I had a town read on Amished and that this read was confusing me with my belief.

Still think Bogre is trying to semantic his way out of the discussion from yesterday.

vote Bogre

Something is really bothering me but I can not figure it out. I am going to re-read and see if I can find what is bugging me. I think I have an idea, but my memory is shoddy right now and I want to make sure I am remembering a post correctly before I bring it to attention.

[Konowa]

Found what was bothering me. It does not any more. Continue.

[pman5595]

Soras, I'll respond to you case after I finish my homework.

[ready2rock]

vote ready2rock

FoS: ckd


...just kidding.

On the first point, I misread your post, I apologize.

On dizzy, I thought you didn't believe it because of the part of iso 98 where you add on the "If you believe dizzy", but I see what you're saying in 102, although is it a little bit of a stretch to think that dizzy would do something like that that early in the game, especially since a mafia player had just been killed the previous night.

You still have not explained why you are not sold on Richard's claim. By the way, I am aware that you have stated other reasons before, but do you stand by those reasons? why or why not?

@CCARaven: 3 things:
1. I said in my post that I was starting from scratch
2. On TheLonging: True, but you said later that you would have hammered if you had the opportunity again. (iso 6)
3. Who do you think is scum and why?

[RichardGHP]

How the HELL do you know that he knew already? Answer this ASAP please.

FoS sorasgoof.

Lack of sora vote is attributed to Raven's scum-like actions shown at the top of the post.

You, more than anyone else in this game (well, maybe not CKD), REALLY piss me off. I'm tired of this "ANSWER ME NOW PL0X123" mentality from you. To answer your question, though, I was trying to reinforce the fact that I think he was bussing Navy. What do you have to say to that? Are you going to ask me fifty more questions? Come on, CKD, you ask a few too. I know you're DYING to.

1. Misinterpretation. I said ASAP, not "NOW PL0X123".
2. Exaggeration. You're only making yourself more suspicious now.

Also, you didn't vote for me because of Raven. What if the Raven situation hadn't happened? You would've voted for me? Just because I put together a case that YOU don't agree with?

I found a lot of flaws in your case. If others don't agree with them, hey, that's their own perogative. I don't see the big deal here; all you got was an FoS.

Finally, ANYTHING can be any type of "tell," depending on how you see it. I do not agree with you in the slightest that bandwagoning is a null-tell. Also, concern over a lurker is a "MAJOR town-tell?" Another opinion from you; I see it a different way.

Then back up your opinions. WHY is bandwagoning not a nulltell, WHY is frustration with lurkers not a town tell?

Here's my list of questions for you all. I hate doing this, but it seems to be the new thing around here. Oh, and I EXPECT YOU ALL TO ANSWER!@#or ELsE!!!@#1

Oh God... not even going to address this part.

3. @Richard- Are you going to answer this question? Either way, continue to question 4.
4. @Richard- Are you going to answer this question? Either way, return to question 3.

Contradictions are fun.

You get points for this post though:

Oh, and this whole "meta" argument is REALLY stupid. I don't get what you're arguing about.

Why lie?

By definition, I did not lie. I simply didn't initially reveal all aspects to my statement. Take the following example:

Player A (truthfully) claims cop at L-1 and everybody unvotes. Player B asks the claimed cop for reports and Player A complies. Because Player A DID NOT reveal his reports in the same post as he claimed cop, is he lying?

Because I see no difference between that scenario and this one.

[sorasgoof]

1. Misinterpretation. I said ASAP, not "NOW PL0X123".
2. Exaggeration. You're only making yourself more suspicious now.

I'm just going to address this part of your post before I go to bed. DON'T even pretend like you haven't had a very pushy, questioning attitude this entire game. I'm telling you right now that I'm tired of it. There's no need for it. If you disagree with me, that's fine. I really don't care. But after you make a case on someone, you tend to drop a question in there for a random person who hasn't been in the conversation at all (mostly me, and I actually have been a part of many conversations).

As for your second point, maybe I was exaggerating a TINY bit. Like I said, I'm fed up with your attitude towards me this game. Sorry if I came off as a bit harsh. And I really don't care if you think I'm suspicious at this point. I haven't done anything suspicious. I've made my case against a person I believe is scum, and if you don't agree/think my case is suspicious, then I'm sorry for you.

[pman5595]

-Said that the RVS was stupid, yet went on to place an RVS vote

Changed my mind. Even without me explaining, how is this a scum tell?

and then BLATANTLY bandwagons on Fugitive, who flipped town.

remember at that point we had basically nothing to go on, I voted him for something, he explained, I unvoted. Typical Day 1

-He was the first (well, he thought he was) one to vote for TheLonging (flipped town). True, I did vote for TheLonging. But that was on Day 3, after TheLonging had begun to really start acting scummy. At the time pman voted for him, I was actually defending TheLonging.

He was the scummiest person at the time of my vote. Again, we don't have a lot to go on day 1

-Eager to get a claim from TheLonging

claims are the norm at L-1

-Very wishy-washy about his suspicions on TheLonging/Richard (sets-up a bandwagon scenario in which he could vote for either and not be considered scummy)

IIRC, I said they are either acting scummy or n00by, and it could be either one. It was the truth.

-In his 33rd post, in his attempt at explaining why he was being soft on TheLonging, he basically quotes a rule saying that we should have fun, and not be to serious. Seriously? Come on. You can be aggressive and still be within the boundaries of the game. Look at Parama, Pie, and others who fit that bill. Are they aggressive? Yes. Are they breaking rules? No.

since when has being respectful scummy? I don't understand. Also on that note, ckd, I think you have been crossing the line a couple of times with Richard, respect-wise

I'm getting this huge vibe from this post that you knew TheLonging was town, and you unvoted because of it. Also, the wagon on TheLonging had started to die down by this time, so I'm guessing you felt the need to jump off, too.

I should have kept my vote on him if his scumminess in my eyes decreased? He got less scummy, I unvoted him. Not a scum tell.

-That whole "TheLonging/Richard are new players/I'm not going to commit" scenario I originally voted for him for.

explained above

At this point, I'd like to take some time to address his 39th post. This post is FULL of BS, mostly aimed at me. Note: This is not an OMGUS at all. If he had done this on anyone else, I would've thought it was suspicious, not just because it was me.

Point 1:

-His first point is SO HYPOCRITICAL I can't even believe it. He says that I won't vote for Richard because I was reluctant to vote because of Richard's noobiness. SERIOUSLY? Like you'd been doing the whole time to that point? What happened to this:

-I FoSed TL and Richard because they were acting scummy. I didn't vote because I thought there was still the possibility that they were just new players.

I just can't believe how you called me out for this when YOU did it yourself.

you said that you wouldn't vote richard unless someone gave you evidence that couldn't be based off of noobiness. The point I was trying to make was that YOU found Richard scummy earlier and I was wondering what happened to that, not that it was scummy you weren't voting richard. Misinterpretation.

Point 2:

COMPLETELY misconstrues my meaning. Absolutely scummy in my eyes. I never said I didn't find Richard scummy.

you said you were reluctant to vote him because of the possibility of newbiness. I thought that meant you thought he wasn't scummy. I possibly could have misinterpreted.

Points 3-4:

Another horrid paraphrase/false information. I said no one suspected Richard of attacking Navy until he told us he wasn't, but pman just couldn't leave it at that. He had to turn it into something scummy.

in 247, you stated that you thought richard and navy could be distancing mafia. in 249, you told Richard that no one suspects him of distancing with navy. That was the contradiction that I was noting. as for your vote for Richard, I have already said I might have misinterpreted your (non) loss of suspicion of Richard.

Points 5-10:

All almost exactly the same thing. Saying that I was giving the mafia ideas, etc. Completely illogical, considering I would have waited until night to give the mafia any sort of idea.

that was WIFOM, I'm not gonna argue it because that would get even more WIFOMy.

Last point:

Jumps on my bandwagon, almost an OMGUS (I had voted for him not too long before).

an OMGUS, with all of that reasoning?

lolNO

Let me get back on track, here.

-Constant attention on Malpascp (frustrated that your mafia buddy isn't participating?)

no, frustrated that a player isn't participating.

-His 49th post- No, I think YOU know who's mafia/roleblocker/etc. Says that I've been scummy the ENTIRE thread (later goes on to say I've only been scummy recently).

Have explained this multiple times

-54th post- Imagine the outbreak if you had voted with no reasoning? Oh, like how you did with me? I'm surprised there WASN'T an outbreak.

I had reasoning for you.

-Takes a two day break (convenient- suspicion had started to form on him. He needed to sink back into the shadows)

had RL things going on. not even a tell, or worth reposting, or me responding to.

-States suspicion of diddin (ANOTHER townie)

because we knew his role and he wasn't acting scummy, that's why we lynched him, right.

States suspicion of DoS (ANOTHER townie)

see above

-Votes Diddin (townie)

see above two

-Oh, too many votes on townies. He had to throw a mafia vote in there. (NavyCherub) Goes on to say "Please be scum, Navy." Come on. You knew already.

oh my god. I voted for mafia! SCUMTELL! also, see above 3

What brought him back into my view was his eagerness to jump on CCARaven at the beginning of Day 4. That was the last straw, honestly.

uhh, what? I did an ISO, I found him very suspicious. You haven't even commented on my case or Raven's scumminess. I fail to see how that could be scummy in any way.

IN CONCLUSION

Hey, that basically was an ISO read. I hope you've read this far. I'm about 99 percent positive that you're either mafia or the SK. And you know what? It doesn't really matter. You've played an absolutely scummy game, and you've managed to stay under the radar until this point. Not anymore.

Vote: pman5595

[/quote]
No, I haven't been under the radar. It's just that all except two people, you and bogre (speaking of which, would love to hear from him) have evaluated me and not found me scummy.

[CCARaven4]

@CCARaven: 3 things:
1. I said in my post that I was starting from scratch
2. On TheLonging: True, but you said later that you would have hammered if you had the opportunity again. (iso 6)
3. Who do you think is scum and why?

1. okay.

2. I would have hammered, because in reality, I shouldn't have ever felt that him claiming VT is worthwhile at all, because anyone would claim VT in that situation. I still believe that if you think someone's scummy and they claim VT that it shouldn't change anything at all, but I hadn't come to that conclusion at that point.

3. I've spent so much time trying to defend myself that I'm not sure who I think is scum. I'm interested to see what comes out of the pman/sorasgoof banter, I think that one of these two are scum. soras made a good first argument, but after reading pman's counter, I find myself needing more from soras. I would like to hear what soras thinks of pman's case on me, more than just that he was 'jumping on me', because he did a true iso read and put in more work than just randomly choosing a target.

[RichardGHP]

1. Misinterpretation. I said ASAP, not "NOW PL0X123".
2. Exaggeration. You're only making yourself more suspicious now.

I'm just going to address this part of your post before I go to bed. DON'T even pretend like you haven't had a very pushy, questioning attitude this entire game. I'm telling you right now that I'm tired of it. There's no need for it. If you disagree with me, that's fine. I really don't care. But after you make a case on someone, you tend to drop a question in there for a random person who hasn't been in the conversation at all (mostly me, and I actually have been a part of many conversations).

There are people who play one thousand times more pushy and aggressive than me, a few of which have been/are in this very game (should be obvious who I'm referring to).

I would like you to ISO this "pushy, questioning attitude" and at least 7 examples of me dropping a random question to you/others not involved in the conversation. Please quote the whole post (unless it's an ISO read/my defense on Day 1) just so that I can see the context to determine whether it's valid or not.

Greatly appreciated.

Side-note: I have ISO'd pman before, so I will ISO sora as well. I find it likely that at least one of them is scum given the recent arguments directed at each other. I didn't find pman to be scum last time (since his play is consistent with that of a newb (isn't this his first game? Second?)) but then again I only ISO'd him up to about ISO post ~30. ISOing both of them and posting thoughts later today.

On that note,

unvote

for now. If I find nothing on sora and/or pman I will revote Raven.

[RichardGHP]

EBWOP: Just for the sake of it, I might ISO Raven as well, to see if he really deserves my vote. Looking back, I don't think the whole cop thing warrants a vote, so if I find nothing out of my three ISOs, I'm just going to bandwagon on whoever else has a formed wagon on them.

[RichardGHP]

EBWOTP:

What is pissing me off is his attitude.

Same to you, pal.

I have no reason to question Dizzy's claim

What makes you believe Dizzy's claim over mine? Becuase she's come back with results? One of which logically confirms me. See:

Navy claims (roleblocker (but doesn't specify alignment)) as requested by Dizzy > Dizzy claims tracker and affirms that Navy visited me, which is consistent with my theory of my investigation being roleblocked AND Navy's claim of Roleblocker > Navy is lynched and flips Mafia Roleblocker.

Only other feasible outcome is that Dizzy and I were scum, bussing Navy. What people don't seem to realise is, if that scenario were true, Dizzy and I would have to be scum TOGETHER. To believe her and NOT me is foolish, since we are either BOTH scum or BOTH town. Either that, or Dizzy was scum with Navy with a bus, pulling an Amished and defending someone she knew was town.

Either way, I don't see how it's possible for me to be scum.

[DocPotter]

FOS R2R

In my re-reading I'm seeing some evidence of links between R2R, navy, and Pie. Similar to the earlier quote in strength. But there does seem to be a pattern.
Also Fugi and Nico (The neighbours) but no so much with the other neighbours.

Just wanted to put this out there as I read on. Heading to D2 and the fun stuff.

Richard. I'll comment more on your, and Dizzy's, claims after I read it properly, but at this stage it doesn't confirm either of you as town.

[Tarballs]

Prodding Bogre and DizzyIzzyB13.

[DocPotter]

Some interesting results from looking at the day 1 votals.

Going by the Mod counts, DoS was the only wagon not to have confirmed scum on it, when every other wagon had two known scum on it at least.

4 - DragonsofSummer (Parama, RichardGHP, TheLonging, sorasgoof)

What is also interesting is the only time we see known scum being the first to leave a wagon, it was Pie leaving Sorogoof's wagon.

Added to earlier suspicions by people, and some unusual responses by Soras to the original wagon on him D1, he's looking good to be voted for.

But I still have 20 pages to catch up on.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

11 - diddin (Fugitive,

curiouskarmadog

, Flareonage, Nicodemus,

RichardGHP

, NavyCherub, TheLonging, pman5595, InflatablePie,

DedicatedScribe

, Parama)

9 - NavyCherub (DizzyIzzyB13,

curiouskarmadog

, Parama, pman5595,

RichardGHP

, sorasgoof,

DedicatedScribe

, InflatablePie, TheLonging)

7 - TheLonging (CryMeARiver,

DedicatedScribe

, ready2rock, sorasgoof, CCARaven4,

curiouskarmadog

,

RichardGHP

)

Three people have been part of all three lynches. Richard, I'm convinced is town for reasons stated elsewhere. Of the other two, ckd has been playing in a town ckdish kinda way.

DedicatedScribe was beyond useless - his only votes were the ones for the eventual lynches, he offered nothing in the way of analysis and maqnaged to create noise without really saying anything. In the CSL incarnation, he replaced out really quickly in response to his RVS wagon for a bizarre reason. In the next incarnation, Annachie, there's excessive worry about a resting vote, too much reliance on policy as a method of scum hunting (particularly lurker lynching) and the puzzling aversion to analysing the claimed and obvious newbies as newbies for no good reason. Hmmm... if Annachie 2.0 wasn't creating a good impression, I'd probably be placing a vote on DocPotter right now. As it is, I'm just keeping a close eye on him.

[ready2rock]

@doc: what are these "links" that you are talking about?