Mini 917 -- Precision Mafia (Game Over)

[AlmasterGM]

Also, we have to consider the penalties of using this plan. If fifi isn't scum, our PR's may not be able to take night actions. Is it really worth the risk of screwing over our PR's on N1 just so we can maybe-probaby-not deny the scum a NK?

[The1fifi]

True, if you lynch me, at least don't damage town even more by making me vote/unvote one thousand times

[Seacore]

Almaster, please pay attention to the maths.

The max amount that a single person can spend is 10.

Our amount, no matter how you look at it, is larger than that, much larger. Making a suspect spend 10 will have almost no effect on town CP.

However, scum may only have around that amount. They probably have more, but I would imagine they have less than 20.

[popsofctown]

However, the remaining command points in the party's pool will be shown privately to all Commander units at the end of every night phase (before the next day's points are replenished).

WHOA.

I just reread the rules



There's GOT to be a way to break this.

We probably have at least one town commander (but probably no more than one, since CP is going to be expected to get bent towards the town).

At the end of tonight the commander will see that we have X CP.
Tomorrow, if everyone votes the same number of times, he should expect to see X-Y CP, where Y is how many town power roles turn up dead from getting shot. For this to work, we have to assume that all the power roles attempt a night action every night. We can make this assumption fairly plausible by announcing, "Hey, town power roles, use your night actions every night, we're trying to break the game in half, kthx".

If everyone does vote the same way, the scum commander will see X-Y CP. So we need to make sure that one player (exactly one)

doesn't

vote the same way. He votes an additonal time or fewer times. Whatever.

This investigates him. If the Commander still sees X-Y CP in the pool that night, the investigated player clearly isn't sharing the town CP pool. The commander claims if the ghettofied investigation read guilty, and broods around and stays valuable if it reads innocent.

So. Mirite?


Re: halflynching: Almasterscum, it's clear that fifi is either scum anyway or isn't competent enough to cooperate with a halflynch. In general though, the odds of ten CP breaking us is low. 12 players, probably 9 are town aligned. There's probably at least one commander. 9*3+3 is 30 cp. take away ten, that's 20 CP. With no scum on the wagon (lol), it takes 7 CP to lynch someone, so 13. One CP for lynch, 12. If all 9 players are power roles (lol), we have 3 CP left over after all is done.

[Seacore]

Oh, missed some earlier posts.

Almaster, State your precise case as to why I should claim, I'll consider it.

Also, nobody is saying the burn 10CP plan is perfect. Nobody is saying it will definitely negate an NK. But as I've said before, scum probably have between 10 and 20 points. Based on the idea of 3 scum, meaning 9+x.

If they've got closer to 10 points, and we get the scum (rather than a townie) to burn 10 points, they've got 9+x - 10 points remaining, i.e. x-1.
This means that there is a chance, especially if they've voted, that they might miss out on some of their NK or Night Actions (if any).

It's not foolproof, but it doesn't really cost us anything.

[Seacore]

whoa whoa whoa pops, I'm not cool with any plan that has the town commander claim on Day 2.

[popsofctown]

You misread the plan then. In no possible turn of events could the town commander end up claiming day 2. He can't possibly claim until day 3.

[Seacore]

It doesn't work, it ties our hands while the scum aren't tied up.

It means no night actions for our team.

[popsofctown]

Are you literate?

The town PRs are told to use their power role every time they can. That makes calculation just as easy as if they never use their power roles at all.

[AlmasterGM]

@popsofctown - The use of town PR's cost command points. We don't know how many CP's the use of each role costs. The commander is only show the number of command points at the

end

of each night. Therefore, your plan does not work UNLESS we command all our PR's to stand down. Which would be stupid.

[popsofctown]

Every player action in the game requires

a

command point to work, so both the town and the mafia will have to play strategically to make the best use of their command points.

[popsofctown]

Bolding, underlining and italicizing mine.

[Seacore]

Ah okay... without knowing all of the PRs, it could be risky, as maybe we have a Vig who doesn't want to shoot, but I still see what you're trying to do.

I think it's a little too hard to orchestrate though. But maybe I'm just work-distracted and can't think straight.

[popsofctown]

Vigs should always shoot every single night. Putting the gun on safety is bad form.

[AlmasterGM]

What if there are roles that only have 1-shot abilities? Then they have to waste them?

Either way, I don't like how Seacore went from being setup-break-happy to Mr Skeptic the moment it seemed like a break might actually work.

[popsofctown]

I'm glad that you're looking at the details Almaster.

A town full of one shots is unlikely, one or two is an unfortunate possibility. I think this new use of CP is a better way to burn our surplus CP than halflynching, so I propose we make the CP burn amount 5 on the player to be investigated. We can't possibly have five one shot roles in this game, let alone would they all shoot on the same night and screw up our deductions.

Unlimited shot roles should never stop firing (or desist from firing the entire game, but please don't do that if you're a vig. A hider or weak doc might decide to give us more CP legroom by making this choice though.)

One shot roles can fire whenever they think it's a key moment for them to do so. We are going to make the investigee burn 5 CP. So for us to get a false positive, we'd have to have 5 one shots, and all five of them would have to decide to shoot night 1. Quite unlikely, especially since one shots seem to be lame with the game's core mechanic, no fun decisions about whether to fire. (Red probably has chugged the game full of hiders, weak docs, and jailkeepers who he wants to wonder if they will leech CP away from vigs, cops, and mastah chiefs).

?Te gusta la pizza?

[popsofctown]

I think it's a little too hard to orchestrate though.

At first I was skeptic of your characterization of Seacore, AlmasterGM, but on rereading him, he doesn't seem to be opposing the plan in a legitimate way with specific concerns. I don't like this "bud I don wanna ged oud of bed to gooooh to de geeyem" comment.

[Seacore]

W.T.F

Almaster. I'm examining set ups. I've found one that works to our advantage. I'm more dubious of this one, but am happy to continue exploring it.

Take off your god damn tunnel vision

[Seacore]

My concern, pops, is that it involves too many unknowns. One off abilities, abilities that may not be used each turn. It could easily total more than 5.

There's also the possibility of reactionary abilities. Maybe something like "crazed gun owner" that only uses a point if it comes up...

I agree with you on the, definitely use your ability each turn, if you're directing that at weaker roles. I don't think town will be in a position of running out of points, as long as we don't go crazy with votes during the day.

I think if we're going to do your plan, it'd probably be more reliable to make the person waste the full 10. (or waste 9 and put the 10th to good use)... hmmm, but maybe they have a night ability... so waste 8, and put the 9th to good use, letting them us a PR if they have it.

[Seacore]

Vigs should always shoot every single night. Putting the gun on safety is bad form.

I disagree with this, there are some nights when they shouldn't. Particularly as you approach lylo.

[Seacore]

he doesn't seem to be opposing the plan in a legitimate way with specific concerns.

Sorry forr the 4x post, but this just annoyed me when I saw it.

Directly above your quote of me is a specific concern. But you've claimed it doesn't exist when quoting me and then accusing me of this. Bad form.

[popsofctown]

My concern, pops, is that it involves too many unknowns. One off abilities, abilities that may not be used each turn. It could easily total more than 5.

Build me a plausible, hypathetical setup of a town that could surpass five, if townies are making slight changes to accomodate the investigation. It's not a huge gimp for a hider to choose between always hide and never hide. We won't have 5 one shots. So build me this set up because I'm really not seeing it.

There's also the possibility of reactionary abilities. Maybe something like "crazed gun owner" that only uses a point if it comes up...

Put a PGO in your set up, I still don't see you getting past 5 or 6. Plus I think taking points from the PGO in this fashion is bastard modding compared with the info he gave us. CP is something we use up when we do actions. PGOs have a passive effect.

I agree with you on the, definitely use your ability each turn, if you're directing that at weaker roles. I don't think town will be in a position of running out of points, as long as we don't go crazy with votes during the day.

All the roles, not just the weaker roles. Decide whether you'll shoot every night or never and do it.

I think if we're going to do your plan, it'd probably be more reliable to make the person waste the full 10. (or waste 9 and put the 10th to good use)... hmmm, but maybe they have a night ability... so waste 8, and put the 9th to good use, letting them us a PR if they have it.

Maaaaybe 6. 8 no wai. I'm waiting on that setup.

[Iecerint]

Back.

I love long days.

Cobalt's purported "scum commander claim" from fifi is improbable IMO. Regardless of fifi's alignment, his post is just subjunctive mood fail. It's a language barrier issue; not a scumslip issue. I still (improbable though it may be) think fifi is the scummiest one in the room, though.

I had in my head that the Commanders gave +3 bonus CP (i.e. double the CP of a typical player), but it looks like that number was only used as an example. So that makes half-lynching (who came up with that jargon? it's not very descriptive) more difficult to pull off, maybe. We could always start low and work up, though. It's better than leaving free CP to rot.

[popsofctown]

RTT, new game breakery is better than old game breakery.

[fhqwhgads]

But if it's just a long day... which is what happens when you've found your scum on page 1 but then run it to page 16 for no reason... well that's pointless and not filled with useful posts.

That's a misrep. Sure, I'm not for dragging on the day, but going 'we've found teh scumz! Kill 'em NAO!' isn't productive either.

My feeling on fifi is that because of mistakes, noobness and the way he expresses himself, he's going to be a hard read. He's going to be a great target for scum (if he isn't one) to hide behind (OH EM GEE! WIFOM!). Getting rid of him now is probably the best move, as he can go either way IMO.

That way, we know exactly how many CP they have remaining, and can thus deduce all of their actions.

Elaborate.

I think it's a little too hard to orchestrate though. But maybe I'm just work-distracted and can't think straight.

Or maybe you're scum trying to dissuade town of a working strategy.

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FOS: Seacore