Pick Your Power II - Looks like the wine is gone (SCUM WIN)


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Post Post #100 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:57 pm

Post by Hoopla »

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 12


Bouncy.Bouncy
- 2 - RedCoyote, Farside - (L-10)
Dramonic
- 1 - TonyMontana - (L-11)
Fate
- 9 - Hoopla, Socrates, Ellibereth, Cobalt, Bouncy.Bouncy, Porkens, Faraday, Devotress, The1fifi - (L-3)
Hoopla
- 1 - Jack - (L-11)
Jack
- 3 - Rayfrost, StrangerCoug, wolframnhart - (L-9)
The1fifi
- 1 - Fate - (L-11)
wolframnhart
- 1 - curiouskarmadog - (L-11)

Players not voting: DocPotter, Dramonic, FeFiFoFum, Pomegranate


Fate wrote: I would definitely not pick the same number as my teammates. That is what I would do, but I don't know what scum in
this
game has done. Maybe they did spread their choices out, maybe they did double up. But people are selfish, who is going to agree "sure I'll double up and likely not get a role." Also the fact that they only had so much time to choose their numbers, I don't know if they debated the issue enough.
It would take a mature mindset to be willing to sacrifice your chance at a role, to be hidden from number analysis. But is it even worth it for scum? As scum, you cannot afford to let town get many of the good roles by trying to get cute.

Perhaps a more visual approach to my theory would be helpful;

We have 9 sets of numbers, yes?

1) Socrates
2) Fate
3) bouncy.bouncy, Cobalt
4) RayFrost, Redcoyote
5) Jack, FeFiFoFum
6) StrangerCoug, The1fifi, wolframnhart
7) Devotress, Porkens, DocPotter
8) Ellibereth, Dramonic, Hoopla, TonyMontana
9) Farside, curiouskarmadog, Pomegranate, Faraday

Now, there is a good chance, that 5 of those 9 groups contain one scum each. An outside chance that only 4 of those groups contain scum, but one group has two. But for the sake of this exercise, lets assume it's best case scenario for town, and scum decided to spread themselves across 5 different numbers.

There is little logical reason to try for a lynch in Group 8 or Group 9. At best there is a 25% chance of a scum lynch, and a decent chance none are there at all. Groups 6 and 7 are slightly better, but again, if we go higher up the list, we have better chances of hitting in smaller groups.

The beauty of this is,
if
scum spread their choices across 5 different numbers, each group has equal chances of containing
a
scum. Basically, a better than 50/50 shot that a group has a scum in it. So by lynching Fate or Socrates, we have a ~50/50 shot of scum being in that group, but because they're the only ones in that group, it is 100% going to be them. As opposed to a 25% chance in a Group 8 or 9 lynch.

Even if scum have doubled up once, the same principal applies (higher up the list, the scummier), but with slightly weaker odds. But really, from reactions of the questions I've asked others about what they'd do as scum, I think it is more than likely than scum are in fact in 5 different groups (which is such a good position for town to be in)!
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Post Post #101 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:03 pm

Post by Fate »

Hoopla wrote:
Fate wrote:
Hoopla wrote:Thank you for conveniently cutting out the bit about numbers from that quote you posted of mine, to make it look like
that
was my sole reasoning for my vote.
Simulpost. So you admit you really did vote me for being a singular number? I was hoping that was a last bit "RVS' joke...
It was a combination of reasons. I will likely want to lynch you or Socrates or a double today, and will probably pick the scummiest one of that set of players (barring significant slips from low draft picks). You are currently the scummiest of that set, for reasons outside number analysis.
Wow, you're serious? I found a contradiction ladies and gentlemen:
The good news for town is, we can already pick out unlikely combinations of scumpairs/teams based purely on numbers. At the very most scum would have doubled numbers once - any more than that leaves them too far down the draft. And frankly, if they have done that I'm thrilled because our roles will probably catch them before they can the reap the benefits of illogical number partners.
Yet you yourself just advocated lynching either Socrates or myself, who are the probably the ones with roles most beneficial to town. You are also giving too much weight to numbers. "Scummiest of that set, barring a significant scumslip..." so you are saying you are more likely to lynch me over scummy player X? You are only even looking at people who fit your "prequisites" for scum (either a singular # or a double) which is a fallacy.

What if one of the doubles is made a triple by chance from town? In that case,
all players
fit your categories. And here we are back at square 1: all players should be lynchable at this point, and you should pick the scummiest out of [i[everyone[/i]. Practically ignoring other players, barring a "significant scumslip (do these even happen these days?)" Thanks for sending a message to scum that they can cruise by today, since you won't be grilling them anyway based on their position.

Though, for all the critique of you I am doing, it is more likely that you are misguided town. I don't think scum have the balls to be under fire like you are this early.
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Post Post #102 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:07 pm

Post by bouncy.bouncy »

Um, Hoopla, maybe I missed something you posted, but why would scum try to spread their numbers? If they pick the same numbers, they aren't automatically roleless. All they need to do is coordinate which
roles
to pick.
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Post Post #103 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:13 pm

Post by Fate »

bouncy.bouncy wrote:Um, Hoopla, maybe I missed something you posted, but why would scum try to spread their numbers? If they pick the same numbers, they aren't automatically roleless. All they need to do is coordinate which
roles
to pick.
So why the hell did you bandwagon me if you didn't even understand all the reasons Hoopla voted me? (Which, I think, a BW vote implies unless other reasons are given for the vote)

Unvote

Vote: bouncy.bouncy
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Post Post #104 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:15 pm

Post by bouncy.bouncy »

I voted for you because you said something that I don't think any townie with a brain would say.

I wasn't going off of Hoopla. I didn't even read anything she posted until like an hour ago.
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Post Post #105 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:18 pm

Post by Hoopla »

Fate wrote: Wow, you're serious? I found a contradiction ladies and gentlemen:
The good news for town is, we can already pick out unlikely combinations of scumpairs/teams based purely on numbers. At the very most scum would have doubled numbers once - any more than that leaves them too far down the draft. And frankly, if they have done that I'm thrilled because our roles will probably catch them before they can the reap the benefits of illogical number partners.
I've changed my mind, based on the sheer ignorance of the town towards the numbers system. Multiple people haven't understood the draft, multiple people think this is wifom territory and not worth touching, and multiple people seem clueless when it comes to even thinking about number analysis. See post 102 for the latest example.

I now doubt scum would have doubled up - and if they have, they shouldn't have because the town is too closed minded to attempt catching them in this way.
Fate wrote:Yet you yourself just advocated lynching either Socrates or myself, who are the probably the ones with roles most beneficial to town.
Yeah, that scum vig or bomb is really beneficial!
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Post Post #106 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:22 pm

Post by farside22 »

Socrates wrote:
farside22 wrote:
socrates

The scum doubled up on one of their picks, mark my words.
I disagree with this. I think maybe at the most 2 people in the scum group picked the same first number but I can't imagine they all did this then the likelihood of getting a PR goes down and why would scum not want to be in the best position for a PR?
um, thats exactly what I said, Farside.

Did you think I said that all 5 members of the scum team picked the same X number? That would be madness.
Yeah I did I'm sorry

unfos soc


I should not be reading an analysis while sick.
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Post Post #107 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:25 pm

Post by Cobalt »

a scum bomb would be pretty awesome for town actually
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Post Post #108 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:27 pm

Post by farside22 »

Hoopla why are you ignoring this group in your number analysis?
Socrates (12,1)
Fate (13,4)
bouncy.bouncy (2,1)
Cobalt (2,10)
RayFrost (4,6)
Redcoyote (4,9)
Jack (7,2)
FeFiFoFum (7,11)
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Post Post #109 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:29 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

Hi fate, why did you cite fake meta?
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Post Post #110 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:29 pm

Post by farside22 »

Hoopla wrote:
Ellibereth wrote:We have a wagon on Fate.
I get that it's most likely that scum are on the single numbers, but that doesn't reduce the list by that much anyway.
I'm curious why you lied about your picks in the signup thread.
Only about the Y number which doesn't count for very much of your chances of a high pick. My tactic was to come in and claim '1' early to scare everyone off it (an assumption based on nobody wanting to sacrifice their own draft position). However, most people didn't understand the system or probably submitted their numbers before reading my post.
Why assume this and not ask the players about it?
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Post Post #111 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:33 pm

Post by farside22 »

bouncy.bouncy wrote:Um, Hoopla, maybe I missed something you posted, but why would scum try to spread their numbers? If they pick the same numbers, they aren't automatically roleless. All they need to do is coordinate which
roles
to pick.
slippery slop of wifom. I detect a bit of distancing here and hoping no one notices.
I voted for you because you said something that I don't think any townie with a brain would say.
ORL what was it that fate said that no townie would say?
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Post Post #112 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:37 pm

Post by Hoopla »

farside22 wrote:Hoopla why are you ignoring this group in your number analysis?
Socrates (12,1)
Fate (13,4)
bouncy.bouncy (2,1)
Cobalt (2,10)
RayFrost (4,6)
Redcoyote (4,9)
Jack (7,2)
FeFiFoFum (7,11)
I'm not. I think you're missing the point of that post. I was showing what would happen if we took out the top drafted players (scum won't do that), because it leaves the players I listed before. Which makes potential scumpairs easier to spot.

See my post 100 for a more rounded view of my opinions.
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Post Post #113 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:39 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

I'm going to treat the number thing like meta, i.e. it can help a case but behavior in thread is still numero uno.
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Post Post #114 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:40 pm

Post by farside22 »

Hoopla wrote:
farside22 wrote:Hoopla why are you ignoring this group in your number analysis?
Socrates (12,1)
Fate (13,4)
bouncy.bouncy (2,1)
Cobalt (2,10)
RayFrost (4,6)
Redcoyote (4,9)
Jack (7,2)
FeFiFoFum (7,11)
I'm not. I think you're missing the point of that post. I was showing what would happen if we took out the top drafted players (scum won't do that), because it leaves the players I listed before. Which makes potential scumpairs easier to spot.

See my post 100 for a more rounded view of my opinions.
I saw that after. I was responding to each thing I found along the way. Sorry I'm feeling lazy and tired right now.

Why do you assume people sent in their numbers early after you posted that you picked 1 and X?
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Post Post #115 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:41 pm

Post by Hoopla »

Ellibereth wrote:I'm going to treat the number thing like meta, i.e. it can help a case but behavior in thread is still numero uno.
That's about the best I can hope for, although I will personally be putting more emphasis on number analysis in my cases.
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Post Post #116 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:48 pm

Post by bouncy.bouncy »

farside22 wrote:slippery slop of wifom.
Are you saying my question is WIFOM? My post wasn't just a rhetorical "why would mafia do that?"; it was attached to the idea that
I believed
"doing that" would have absolutely
zero
strategic value for the mafia. As far as I know, WIFOM is only in play when both sides of the argument have some strategic value for the mafia. I genuinely saw no reason for why mafia would want to pick different numbers.

HOWEVER, I didn't think the scenarios through before I posted that. My theory was wrong and Hoopla's was right. So I'm not going to make that argument anymore.
ORL what was it that fate said that no townie would say?
"Hmmm... Any scum want to claim and tell us?"
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Post Post #117 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:50 pm

Post by bouncy.bouncy »

bouncy.bouncy wrote:My theory was wrong and Hoopla's was right.
edit: regarding whether there is strategic value for the mafia to pick different numbers.
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Post Post #118 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:54 pm

Post by Fate »

Ellibereth wrote:Hi fate, why did you cite fake meta?
Hey Elli, why is your memory so poor? Do I really have to go search for your
own
past games?
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Post Post #119 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:57 pm

Post by Ellibereth »

Fate wrote:
Ellibereth wrote:Hi fate, why did you cite fake meta?
Hey Elli, why is your memory so poor? Do I really have to go search for your
own
past games?
It's funny because I haven't been cop yet
It's even funnier because you're still stubborn enough to believe that you're right.
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Post Post #120 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:59 pm

Post by Fate »

bouncy.bouncy wrote:
farside22 wrote:slippery slop of wifom.
Are you saying my question is WIFOM? My post wasn't just a rhetorical "why would mafia do that?"; it was attached to the idea that
I believed
"doing that" would have absolutely
zero
strategic value for the mafia. As far as I know, WIFOM is only in play when both sides of the argument have some strategic value for the mafia.
I genuinely saw no reason for why mafia would want to pick different numbers.
What. The. Hell? You can't think of a reason mafia would want to pick different numbers? You think they would all pick the same one?
HOWEVER, I didn't think the scenarios through before I posted that. My theory was wrong and Hoopla's was right. So I'm not going to make that argument anymore.
ORL what was it that fate said that no townie would say?
"Hmmm... Any scum want to claim and tell us?"
Really? Ok, thanks for sharing with me one the unwritten rules of MS. Townies with brains are forbidden from making jokes. (/SARCASM, by the way.)
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Post Post #121 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:00 pm

Post by Fate »

Ellibereth wrote:
Fate wrote:
Ellibereth wrote:Hi fate, why did you cite fake meta?
Hey Elli, why is your memory so poor? Do I really have to go search for your
own
past games?
It's funny because I haven't been cop yet
It's even funnier because you're still stubborn enough to believe that you're right.
Ok I'll go find it then, just because I want to show you the egg on your face. You replaced into a game and were a cop, now give me a few minutes.
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Post Post #122 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:11 pm

Post by Fate »

Well I'll find it one of these days, heading to work now. Either way, a game in which someone with a female sounding name replaced someone during N1 and then came in D2 and claimed cop with a guilty exists.

Somewhere out there.

I'm not crazy I swear...
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Post Post #123 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:42 pm

Post by Devotress »

Can I get one last confirmation from Spyrex, please:
SpyreX wrote:
Queue Thread wrote:
If you /in I will PM you town or scum. AT THAT POINT if you may choose to give me draft numbers. Or, you can wait until they must be in.

This confirms that scum knew their allignment before draft numbers, it doesn't confirm they were given their buddy list before draft numbers. Infact, scum couldn't have been given their buddy list before draft numbers, because roles were assigned
As people signed up
, meening all of their buddies hadn't been descided yet.

Spyrex, did scum know all their buddies before sending in numbers?



If we have to follow down this wifom hole I'd rather be sure we're actually right about this, because I still don't think we are.
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Post Post #124 (ISO) » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:52 pm

Post by Jack »

Hoopla wrote:Jack, I think you're taking my words too literally. There are never times when you have 'no' information. You always start a game with knowledge of a player, your role and the previous posts. I'm stating that numbers are a primary source of information - they should hold more importance than whatever scumtell you can generate from a few pages of voting.

Thank you for conveniently cutting out the bit about numbers from that quote you posted of mine, to make it look like
that
was my sole reasoning for my vote.
Fair enough, I didn't copy that bit, but it was really just a postscript on your main point.

But I'm not taking your words too literally, it would be you speaking too literally if you get what I mean. Or, you forgot about your case on fate, leading to you saying we didn't have any information to analyze.

Your plan to lynch the top drafters is also faulty. There may be more mafia, but that's also where a lot of the best pro town roles are.

We lynch the scummiest person.

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