Mini 902: Pick your Poison 4 (Game over!)

[Porochaz]

One thing we need to consider before damning all the people that Yos thought was town, is the fact that we may have a Vig in this game. RBT claimed cop before dying, so there probably isn't a cop in this game. So all that leaves is Doc/Vig. The second death isn't necessarily due to Yos protecting scum. I don't think there is a Vig in the game, but it is possible.

Yes and in this case, we should follow scots advice. However I checked this and yos argues about why chamber has produced content but that is the closest he comes before saying anyone other than farside is town.

[boberz]

Calm down guys, even if this is the right decision which it looks like it might.We should talk and read first. I am busy now, but I really would like to do a touch of investigating before the day is up.

[farside22]

I can only say in leu of Poro's comments on Yos is that I'm town. It's always possible that yos picked someone else after everything was said and done at the end of the day. But I'm sure that will be characterized as WIFOM.
I will have my case of players I find with links to RBT by tomorrow.

[ortolan]

The scum know their claims are fake and the only thing they have to worry about is if someone targets one of them.
I think if I was a weak doc I would try and be subtle about who I was going to protect in some way. Idk I'm trying to think of the best way to utilize a possible role.

My advice to the weak doc would be something like this:

A weak doc, if there is one, should protect someone he or she thinks is obvtown. This both confirms the person as town, and has a good shot of preventing a scum kill, as well as making the scum second-guess their kill choice if the most obvtown person might get protected, and is less likely to cost us the weak doc. Probably the best thing a weak doc can do is to carefully confirm a few people as town and then claim, and/or breadcrumb after confirming someone as town. Breadcrumbing before the weak doc targets someone is possible too, although it's tricker.

Now look through and see how many times he says farside is obvtown.

vote farside

I don't think he said it too many times, but based on the fact he specifically said "the weak doc should breadcrumb" and called her town more than any other person, frankly she seems to be an obvious choice for a lynch (barring the vig situation described by scotmany).

[Leech]

frankly she seems to be an obvious choice for a lynch (barring the vig situation described by scotmany).

Where did Scot mention a Vig?

[Porochaz]

We shouldn't look to much into the table of hypoclaims that RBT gave. Can we use it to catch scum? Possibly. It might very well be useful to catch the last scum once we have already lynched 2. However, there is just too many possibilities concerned with the table.

If there is a vig, they should claim if they did the following: Chose to kill yos or chose to kill ellibereth. If there is a vig and they did not do one of those, then a claim is not necessary. I am willing to lynch farside of there is no claim.

Here

[Porochaz]

We shouldn't look to much into the table of hypoclaims that RBT gave. Can we use it to catch scum? Possibly. It might very well be useful to catch the last scum once we have already lynched 2. However, there is just too many possibilities concerned with the table.

If there is a vig, they should claim if they did the following: Chose to kill yos or chose to kill ellibereth. If there is a vig and they did not do one of those, then a claim is not necessary. I am willing to lynch farside of there is no claim.

Here

[Patrick]

Votecount

farside22 (1) -- Porochaz

Not voting: farside22, boberz, Anon, ortolan, Sajin, Leech, scotmany12, CooLDoG
9 alive, lynch at 5.

[Sajin]

@Yos- I like your crumbs sir. I wish you could of left more. I suppose the rolecop was the better choice but that is because it was lynched day 1 (which, go figure, is something neither of us argued). But no you did not win that argument, you were just adept at skirting my points, which I in turn was frustrated at and found scummy.

I think Yos likely protected farside. This makes sense with his comments.

@Farside, can you give a town/scum list please?

@Leech- Why do you think those lists have anything to do with alignment? Also, why do you call it hypo roleclaim? Furthermore, I really dislike this comment:

One thing we need to consider before damning all the people that Yos thought was town, is the fact that we may have a Vig in this game. RBT claimed cop before dying, so there probably isn't a cop in this game. So all that leaves is Doc/Vig. The second death isn't necessarily due to Yos protecting scum. I don't think there is a Vig in the game, but it is possible.

You found it necessary to essentially scream "not vig" for what reason exactly? I do not really see this post being made from town. You really want us to deny the input of an informational role here? Why?

@Scot- Any vig should not claim. Zero reason to. What is the benefit of that considering this is a open setup? You also screamed not vig.....bleh.

[scotmany12]

@Scot- Any vig should not claim. Zero reason to. What is the benefit of that considering this is a open setup? You also screamed not vig.....bleh.

Um, if there is a vig, and the vig killed yos/elliberth, then yes he should claim. First, it gives us a confirmed town basically. Second, I'll feel much more confident lynching farside knowing that Yos did die from protecting someone.

[Leech]

@Leech- Why do you think those lists have anything to do with alignment? Also, why do you call it hypo roleclaim?

We were hypothetically claiming which role's we'd give the town if we were scum. The word "roleclaim" may be a poor choice of wording, but it's all I could think of at the time to label that phase of the game.

I didn't say it has anything to do with alignment, but it might. I don't see the harm in looking at who's lists have been the closest so far. It could mean something, but it might not. If we look at everything that's happened, we can piece things together to make a better decision, than just basing it off of potential breadcrumbing alone.

You found it necessary to essentially scream "not vig" for what reason exactly? I do not really see this post being made from town. You really want us to deny the input of an informational role here? Why?

The first sentence of that quote really bugs me. I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure why you actually posted it. You're stating that by saying "I don't think there's a vig in the game" that I've narrowed down a potential vig for the scum. I have to ask though, if that's what you think, why did you post it? That's not how I intended it to read, and you could have very well been the only person to read it in that manner, so why did you pass that information onto the scum in this thread? Do you realize how much your question resembles rolefishing?

I'm not wanting anyone to "deny" the information from a power role, either. I'm stating that we should entertain the possibility of other scenarios, as well. I really don't like how you've stated that I "really want" us to deny that information. I've never stated, nor implied, any such thing. Looking at all the information available, and at other possible situations that could have occurred is nothing but beneficial to the town. The fact that you're turning that into something that it isn't, is raising my eyebrows a bit.

If you look at my suspects from the last day, Farside was one of my prime's. I could have easily just went along with Poro's breadcrumbing theory backed with my suspicions from the last day. I'm not doing that, I want us to consider other possibilities before we make any rash decisions. That being said, the breadcrumbing does, in fact, go hand-in-hand with my suspicions from the last day phase so I am willing to go along with that in time as long as all other possibilities are considered and discussed prior.

Um, if there is a vig, and the vig killed yos/elliberth, then yes he should claim. First, it gives us a confirmed town basically. Second, I'll feel much more confident lynching farside knowing that Yos did die from protecting someone.

If there is a vig and they killed elliberth, then they should not claim. While that would confirm the Vig it does nothing else. All that would achieve is getting the vig killed. While having a single confirmed town would help us for a single day, it hurts us in the long run.

If there's a vig and they killed Yos, then they should claim. That way we'd know that the weak doc's death really doesn't give that much information, and if that's the case we should know it before basing an entire day around the implications of the death.

[Sajin]

@Scot- Any vig should not claim. Zero reason to. What is the benefit of that considering this is a open setup? You also screamed not vig.....bleh.

Um, if there is a vig, and the vig killed yos/elliberth, then yes he should claim. First, it gives us a confirmed town basically. Second, I'll feel much more confident lynching farside knowing that Yos did die from protecting someone.

Your last statement would require everyone claiming vig or not vig. That is a bad idea.

A Vig exists: Then we have 2 town directed kills each cycle. No need to have the vig claim and die. The benefit of the vig living outweighs the harm of not using this information. Conclusion: lynch off breadcrumbs and vig can confirm themselves by killing this cycle.

A Vig does not exist: Then we should lynch off of Yos' breadcrumbs.

Side note: The other viable argument is to wait a day and let everyone see whether or not there is 2 night kills. However, I would prefer not to do this as a vig generates an extra town directed death each cycle and thus I think the potential benefit outweighs the potential loss. But I do see the flipside.


@Leech- Me wanting to cut people off from claiming/insinuating not XXXX PR bugs you? and you insinuate I am rolefishing when it is you asking a role to claim if they acted in such a way? Yep that makes total sense. I made the statement to make sure everyone is careful. If I was scum, would it not be more effective to let such comments continue? The correct play is to get everyone more mindful of the harm these comments cause. Disagree?

Any PR in 3 man endgame makes LY/LO 50/50 or better because of the open nature of the game. Because of that fact, the benefits of having a claim now are absolutely nullified. Disagree?

[scotmany12]

Um, if the vig killed elliberth then Yos's death doesn't give us any information either. Scum could have targeted him for the nightkill. If we have a vig, they should claim if they killed elliberth/yos.

[scotmany12]

And I'd much rather have a confirmed town and rely on lynching that allow a vig to kill at night, and risk him/her killing more town members. There is no protown reason to oppose a vig claim if the vig killed elliberth/yos.

FoS:

Leech, Sajin. All further discussion of of the claiming situation should stop. Vig, if there is one, claim if you killed elliberth/yos.

[Sajin]

@Scot- Can you reply to this? I know I did not ask this one directly to you, but I am curious what your thoughts about it are:

Any PR in 3 man endgame makes LY/LO 50/50 or better because of the open nature of the game. Because of that fact, the benefits of having a claim now are absolutely nullified. Disagree?

[scotmany12]

@Scot- Can you reply to this? I know I did not ask this one directly to you, but I am curious what your thoughts about it are:

Any PR in 3 man endgame makes LY/LO 50/50 or better because of the open nature of the game. Because of that fact, the benefits of having a claim now are absolutely nullified. Disagree?

If we play this right we won't get to endgame. And I want to truly know if yos died from protecting someone. And if the vig did kill elliberth/yos, and claims, then we avoid a possible myslynch.

[Anon]

Posting to avoid prod.

Really busy. Posting tomorrow.

[Leech]

@Leech- Me wanting to cut people off from claiming/insinuating not XXXX PR bugs you?

No, it's how you wrote it. The information you provided in your content is what bugs me. Pretty much you pointed out how something said, could hurt us, while telling the scum how to use it, when they might not have noticed it, or took it in that manner in the first place.

[farside22]

@Farside, can you give a town/scum list please?

I will work on this. It may take some time so bare with me to do everything including the links I promised today.

[CooLDoG]

I'm back from my v/la and am going to re-read, more instead of just scaning. Real bummer that our weak doc did not hypo claim. Now those who were not for it see how useful it could have been.
Right now as I said in one of my early posts before my v/la. I said that if rbt was scum I would vote for scot because of the fact that he did defend rbt. Thus I am going to vote him now for that, and for not going along with the hypo-claim.

vote: scot

I will re-read more latter and my vote might change after a re-read, but as of now I am still slightly busy so I have to go. I hope my life will slow down so I can post more.

[Porochaz]

I'm back from my v/la and am going to re-read, more instead of just scaning. Real bummer that our weak doc did not hypo claim. Now those who were not for it see how useful it could have been.
Right now as I said in one of my early posts before my v/la. I said that if rbt was scum I would vote for scot because of the fact that he did defend rbt. Thus I am going to vote him now for that, and for not going along with the hypo-claim.

vote: scot

I will re-read more latter and my vote might change after a re-read, but as of now I am still slightly busy so I have to go. I hope my life will slow down so I can post more.

Extremely bad posting - read the game before you vote.

[ortolan]

LOL

[boberz]

Not bad posting, he has read the thread just not completely up to date. I trust he knows we are not on the verge of lynching and he is able to follow through on a threat he made. It is not as if he is a replacement, just a few days behind.

[scotmany12]

Thus I am going to vote him now for that,

and for not going along with the hypo-claim.

What the hell are you talking about right here?

[scotmany12]

But seriously, I was one of the leading pushers for the hypodoc. I'm the first to bring it up. So I will ask you again cooldog, what the hell are you talking about?