SWN II: The Curse of the Nekomata (Game over!)

[wolframnhart]

Drunk post restriction or not, just voting for someone because you feel like it? And the fact that you wanted to hammer either Doc or Syke doesn't sit right, especially if your reason for voting in the first place is because you feel like it.

vote richard

[LlamaFluff]

How to handle your drinks better

FL had the 'talk drunk' one there and was the perfect example of how to play it without pissing everyone off

[sykedoc]

I may not be active tomorrow, so if I'm slow to respond please be patient.
I've run into some major personal issues and I need to be alone for a little while.

[Starbuck]

The case on Syke is not meta.

It's where the case started. I understand that the case on syke isn't purely meta anymore, heck, how could it be?, but the initial case started with meta arguments.

But the case now is about his reactions, actions, and things that have happened in this game and not out of it.

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE COUNT

DocPotter (8): LlamaFlufft, kyle99, Nul, Fishythefish, SaintKerrigan, Kairyuu, Parama, sykedoc
kyle99 (1): DocPotter
Parama (1): Sanhora
RichardGHP (1): wolframnhart
sykedoc (9): Anon, DeathNote, Starbuck, MafiaSSK, RayFrost, Amished, Rifka Viveka, Pomegranate, RichardGHP
Not voting (6): Bogre, My Milked Eek, xRECKONERx, animorpherv1, tubby216

With

25

players alive, it takes

13

votes to lynch.

Still trying to get those replacements. I've PM'd three people to try to get them in, and two have denied my offer. The third hasn't responded yet, so hopefully I can get at least him.

DeathNote is prodded.

[RayFrost]

ITT, Parama avoids voting for his scum partner by saying the old case against his scum partner is bad while completely ignoring the new case while also pointing out to his scum partner that they are doing the same thing.

[Rifka Viveka]

So since saintkerrigans slot is due to be replaced, making any case would be futile right now. But whoever replaces in, im not just forgetting about this i expect some protown things out of this slot

Unvote

My other suspect sykedoc, is doing what made my initially suspicious, which is a whole bunch of AtE. Asking to be lynched, the ''you will be sorry for lynching me'' defence used earlier'' and imo a lack of any pro town activity

vote: sykedoc

also your most recent post is of little interest to me sykedoc, your actions are independently scummy in THIS game.

Voting me based on a nulltell? At least Starbuck's post has some things in it.
This is opportunistic.

I disagree. Its not opportunistic because my first post here i mentioned you as a top suspect, and when my other top suspect replaced out, i joined a wagon that could be productive now. Its not like i said ''woah hey a wagon has started ill get on'' no i found you suspicious since square one

[xRECKONERx]

Now that I think about it - there's no chance of me catching up in this game. Lost premiere tonight means I won't get it done tonight, then I have one class tomorrow and a fuckton of homework to do after class, then I have class allll day Thursday and work allll day Friday. I just won't have a few hours to sit down and catch up on this game.

@Mod: Please replace me. I'm terribly, terribly sorry.

And for the rest of you... I love you all <3 <3 <3 <3 <3 It pains me to have to replace out.

[Amished]

RECK! WHYYYYYYYYY? WHY MUST LIFE BE SO CRUEL?

Meh, enjoy your homework... That's karma for abandoning me like this.

[StrangerCoug]

Riceballtail replaces kyle99.

Sanhora (who would have replaced out anyway) tells me SaintKerrigan is V/LA; could I have everybody active PM me with whether or not I should keep the latter in the game?

[DeathNote]

Hi. It appears I have been prodded.

So far, both wagons seem logical too me, however I am for Syke more then DP atm. I have already stated my reasons with him fence sitting then changing his mind under the slightest pressure. His recent posts do not indicate that of town trying to fix scumminess but more so of scum trying to prove himself town. Anything else?

[Riceballtail]

Here, reading, hopefully caught up within 48 hours.

[LlamaFluff]

Time to move wagons

Unvote
Vote Parama

Reasoning after midterm tomorrow + massive HW load

[Bogre]

Rifka: A case against a slot isn't futile if the player is replacing out- post what you had against St.Kerr. and his replacement will address it.

[sykedoc]

Not much occurring today.

I'll be out for one more day as I'm still sorting out a major personal issue.
I will try as hard as I can to get back and reply if something occurs tomorrow that requires my response.

I apologize for any inconvenience this causes, this should be sorted out soon.

[Fishythefish]

I’m going to go through votes for sykedoc – first I’m going to do a bit of a wall on Starbuck, then I’m going to do a sensible sized post on the people following him. I think his wagon is very misguided.

Catch Up to Page 9

On sykedoc

If its absolutely necessary I can give you first day reads. But I've found that often, peoples reads on day 1 lead to villagers getting killed for stupid reasons.

Excuses, excuses.

Many players have only weak reads on day 1. At best, its a very weak scumtell. The phrase "excuses, excuses" implies to me that syke has done something blatantly scummy, and is now flailing around trying to explain it - just not the case.

It will not end well if you crusade against me.

And now you are going to threaten people?

This is just a standard "I'm town!" cry from syke. I don't think this is a scumtell.

I find it stupid reasoning to vote for someone because their policies do not agree with yours.

And yeah, I can have zero reads. It depends on your definition of a read.
I believe a read is a valid suspicion. I have none to this point. Anything I do have is based off something i do not consider substantial.

If you can't live with that you can try to lynch me but again. It won't end well.

Wow! AtEs and overreactions much?

He's not voting you due to disagreeing with your policies. He's voting for you because you aren't contributing to scumhunting.

AtE - townie players play emotionally as well. AtE is something to be disregarded, but it is not scummy. Overreactions similarly - noone wants to be lynched, and every played acts differently when attacked. I don't think scum particularly react more than townies.

The problem here is just about everything is scummy on D1.

Care to elaborate on this please?

LlamaFluff- White Knighting, can go either way.

Provide examples of Llame white knighting.

Llama had been blatantly leading the town.

Page 9 to Page 12

The bolding she is referring to is in a post of his that she quoted: "If you show me something substantial and solid, I'm quite likely to vote with you."

It feels like he just admitting to the fact that he will ride coattails.

Nothing wrong with a good coattail. His clarification is clearly saying that while he will look for good scumtells day 1, if other people find them he will vote with them - not a particularly scummy attitude. It feels to me just like he knows he isn't very good at d1 scumhunting.

This seems a bit overdefensive to me. Why are you so afraid of your meta?

I think everyone's goal is to remain the same from game to game regardless of role. Unfortunately, most people do not based on if they are scum or town. That's how people who play together a lot are able to tell almost automatically if that person is scum or town.

Defensiveness - another thing that isn't actually a scumtell. RE: Starbuck's meta: meta cases on you are extremely annoying, particularly if founded on bad meta. Because there's basically no defense. I see absolutely nothing scummy about syke's defense - even if I sometimes disagree with it.

Admission of a PR? This early in the game? Why would you do such a thing?

Yeah, this was a silly move by syke. I'd say claiming early is a towntell though

I like how you avoid that I fence sat in plenty of other games. Its just a bad habit, its not a scumtell.

I don't like this assumption.

What? What kind of response is that? What assumption? Why not question him further as to where he fence sat? If you are taking into account the meta attacks on him (which are that he fence sat as scum, once), why do you dismiss his very relevant meta defense?

The softclaim has a lot to do with the fact that I don't care if I die.

You don't care? Dude, you've been whining about how you shouldn't be killed for like 5 pages at this point.

Yeah, that's probably fair. Doesn't point to scum-syke, though

Why don't you disprove [my claims]? Show where you did the same thing as town, rather than ranting and raving.
Claiming they are weak, without backup, is scummy.

This is absolutely fine. If syke is claiming he does the same thing as scum, he should be able to back that up

So out of the other 23 people (excluding yourself and Anon), there's ABSOLUTELY NO ONE ELSE that you find scummy? You are just going to attack the person that's attacking you and vote them. My dear, that's THE DEFINITION of OMGUS.

Yeah, syke was a bit OMGUSy here. Which is very natural, as any alignment, when you've just had a massive post posted against you

Ad hom like

3) Would you like me to give you my role so you two can look like idiots?

Ad hom is the practise of attacking a player to weaken his/her arguments, while ignoring the validity of the arguments themselves. Using the word "idiots" does not constitute an ad hom.

Also continuing threats like

Do not attempt to use this against me as it doesn't apply to my D1 tactics specifically.

What? He's saying an argument against him doesn't apply here, and giving a reason. How is this a threat?

Star then quotes some AtE, which is indeed AtE.

So, how about you stop all this overemotional whatever the hell you have going on and actually scumhunt? There's like 5 pages of you whining and overreacting about being hammered when you only have 5 votes in a day when it takes 13 to lynch.

This paragraph pretty well sums up the problem here. It's pretty much what I'd have liked syke to do at that point as well. But the issues it addresses don't point to him being scum.

The one point I like in these posts is that syke has refused to provide examples of his fence-sitting town play.

Or here's something else. Why have YOU BARELY COMMENTED on the DocPotter wagon? Kinda hypocritical given the fact that you are all over my ass about that very thing.

This is a good point. syke’s failure to comment on the other serious wagon of the day for a long time is notable

You are clearly intent on forming a case on me. You don't seem to care about the others.

This is just reaching now.

I reposted Saint and Nul's posts to show just how non-contributory they both have been.

And with DocPotter, yes it's an odd way to back off a wagon, but that one action does not make him autoscum.

I don't think this is reaching in the slightest. Read your own catchup posts - by the end of them, it's quite clear it has changed from a rounded catchup to a case on syke

I still believe he's scummy, but I believe there is a smarter scum, and I'd rather get rid of a smarter scum who I believe will do more damage if left alive.

How does this make sense? You BELIEVE he's scummy and you see that the wagon is in his favor, but you aren't voting for him?

Another good point. I can’t really imagine thinking I’ve found scum, but not voting because I think I can find a better scum, which is what syke seems to be saying.

[Fishythefish]

Wait, wait, wait.

I want the people who are saying sykedoc's case is crap and such, to explain why you dont think he is scummy after:

- Blatant fence-sitting. Typical scum behavior trying to survive only pushing when necessary. (Sykedoc has already behaved like this as scum).

- Refusing to give opinions but when pressured by Llama, ta-dá, a full list of opinions magically emerge of notepad. Guess you didnt want to get fluff angry.

- Overreacting to 5 votes. Really?

- Also, I dont buy the softclaim OH YOU ARE GOING TO BE SO WRONG WHEN YOU LYNCH A POWER ROLE.

Power roles that are at 5 votes and are not even threatened to lynch DONT start screaming they are power roles because that paints a huge target on their asses. Most likely this is a scum appeal to emotion that its even terribly implemented.

The meta case I found is just confirmation of something sykedoc has already done as scum.

We have scum here people.

Fence-sitting, this early in the game, is a weak scumtell. It remains weak at least for all of day 1.
Giving reads when asked is not a scumtell, even if you haven’t done so previously. syke’s explanation is that he had tentative reads, and on questioning published these – I see no reason to disbelieve him.
Overreaction is not a scumtell, it varies far to much from player to player.
Unnecessary softclaims are bad. They are not scumtells.

DN’s case is very simple – fence sitting.

MafiaSSK has not backed his vote up at all (which, I believe, is unsurprising for him).

RF quotes one of Starbuck’s better points when voting syke, and goes on to make some AtE type points, together with accusations of syke giving up on his anon case under pressure – which I really, really don’t see in the game.

Unvote
Vote: Sykedoc

Namely 507; where he takes a position that he thinks that everything he does, the rest of the players will think as scummy. Because he can't see the townie side of anything, he didn't do anything until pressured. This signals to me that he's not a townie as he can't even think that him continuing to play like "normal" would absolve him, especially with the low amount of pressure that was really applied to him at the time.

I don't even care that he's softclaimed a power role earlier, scum get them too. His actions say scum.

Yeah, I can see where you’re coming from here. However, I tend to think that townies who get repeatedly lynched or wagonned for their playstyles may also have this attitude.

Rifka’s vote is based on AtE etc, plus a lack of “pro town activity”. I think lack of scumhunting is a horrible accusation to throw at someone who has had to defend themselves all day. Yes, in a perfect world syke would have scumhunted as well. In my experience though, it’s rare you have the energy after defending yourself from this sort of wagon.

Pom’s been on and off the syke wagon – early on, this was based largely on meta. Her case is now not based on meta, but it’s at all clear to me what it is based on.

Richard’s vote is a self-declared OMGUS vote. Having to post drunk is no excuse for acting stupidly.

Damn. I'm totally out of time to post the conclusion (which is that syke is not scum). Stay tuned...

[Fishythefish]

So, to recap: here are the points about sykedoc I find good:
- Failure to point to the town games where he has fence sat, which he claims exists – he really should have done so.
- Failure to comment on DP wagon (most relevant if DP flips scum)
- Then, again on DP, his “I think he’s scum but can catch a better scum” post. He clarifies this to “DP was scummy in an obvious way, Anon was scummier”, which I can’t decide whether to believe. Again, only really relevant if DP is scum.

These aren’t terrible points, and in other circumstances could be a decent case (and there’s certainly a DP-syke connection). But the thing is, my impression of syke is of a player who isn’t a good scumhunter (at least d1), reacts badly to pressure – particularly over things he sees as issues with his playstyle - is emotional and doesn’t think his posts through hard enough before posting. I view these as fairly alignment neutral things (at least without meta on the individual concerned). On top of this, he’s played the whole game under attack, and talked about himself a huge amount (voluntarily and otherwise). On a player like syke, under these conditions, I would expect a much, much better case by now. Instead we have some moderately good points floating in a sea of attacks on his playstyle.

On a gut level, I also find his emotional play convincing, and I associate those strong emotions with town.

I think this is the day 1 antitown-player default mislynch in this game, and that we need to stop it.

This concludes part one of Operation: Stop the Mislynch! In part two, which will follow as soon as possible, I work out who the scum are.

[Parama]

Time to move wagons

Unvote
Vote Parama

Reasoning after midterm tomorrow + massive HW load

ZOMG Llama ur liek the leeder of teh town I will follow evrything u says.

FoS: Parama

Anyways, I love a good reaction test. Feel free to build a case on me, because I want to rip it to shreds.

[DeathNote]

Fencesitting is not my only reason, it is just what go me started. Plus, fencesitting is not a weak scum tell depending on how it was done. We were 6-8 pages into the game and he just made a crappy one line post saying he didn't have any reads. Llama called him out on it and in less then three posts, he posts an LoS? How do you go from no reads to LoS?

He has played like that all game... when pressure is on him, he does a 180 and its making my head hurt.

[RichardGHP]

gyus panama WIll pir a csaet oshderz aolng iwht ouy

dont od it

autcualyl do cuz hell esu ihs agnyr mate to hsi avdangeat

[Amished]

Richard, why are you scared of parama?

"he will rip a cast to shredz along with you"? If that ever discouraged anybody, I'll eat a shoe.

I also highly advise you to use forbiddan's style of drunk posting if possible, your mix and match crap isn't fun to get through at all.

[LlamaFluff]

Nul's coming off as a newb more than anything to me. Not that that means he isn't newbscum, just that his actions are more newbie mistakes than anything. He is coming off as rather scummy, especially the recent DocPotter wagon vote, I will admit.
Both Kyle only posted again once they were called out for lurking, and both posted pretty close together as well with a vote for the same person... my scumdar beeped at both of these things. But then again I know how kyle plays regardless of his alignment so this isn't too surprising of a response from him <_<

Some major fence sitting here. Nul is more newb, but he could be scum, but more likely newb, but is coming off scummy. I dont think ive seen someone go back and forth that many times in two sentances. Then kyle is lurking, and scummy, but it a nulltell for him (out of interest, have you seen town-kyle?). Either way, he just sets up two players that he can go and throw a vote on at will.

Not posting very often [wolf], little content when posting, bad reason for voting Datadanne, wagoned DocPotter. Caught my eye with his early posting and I feel this guy is scum from what I've read.

Why him over the other lurkers in the game? Why is his data vote bad? (hint it isnt)

Why thank you. I'm glad you think that. Anyways I didn't post my full thoughts on him, just a brief summary. I also don't have the time to post full thoughts right now either. So be patient.
Anyways, I would support a DocPotter lynch. Points brought up by everybody else, and he seems to have given up, resorting to AtE in his most recent post. Wasn't sure about it when the wagon was first forming but his reactions reek of scum. Just not good at all.

unvote, Vote: DocPotter

. Still would like a wolf lynch but this one's just as good IMO.

lol what?

He goes from wanting wolf lynched in part due to wagoning DP to wanting DP lynched, but still wanting wolf lynched... I know he says he wasnt sure at first, but this is a sub 24-hour turnaround

However, DocPotter's vote on kyle doesn't make sense IMO. If Doc was scum I would think he'd find a good reason to jump on the syke wagon. But then again... syke was pretty reluctant to vote DocPotter. And he only switched after the Doc wagon lost momentum and was head towards him. I think we may have found a scumteam here. Syke's bussing his partner to save himself, whereas Doc doesn't want to vote his partner in fear of being called out for bussing. But if I look at it that way, then either decision would've gotten them called out... kinda WIFOM. But if any response would make them look scummy, that could mean they're both scum. Eh. There's some sort of logical fallacy in my argument it seems that's causing this problem. Can't be bothered to find it right now. If anyone figures out the problem I'd be glad to fix it and see what impact it has on this theory I've set up.

Look at all this stuff on SD-DP. He has just lined up to lynch either of them based on presented information regardless of what either of them flip. Stunning really.

For now, my vote stays. If both are scum, then I don't have any reason to switch from one to the other.

Oh and more reasoning to shuffle back to a SD lynch

Just go read everything he has been saying about SD-DP and see if you cant reach the same conclusion. Nothing has been solid, everything has allowed him to just wander around between the wagons regardless of what happens for the rest of the game.

[RayFrost]

Richard, why are you scared of parama?

"he will rip a case to shredz along with you"? If that ever discouraged anybody, I'll eat a shoe.

I also highly advise you to use forbiddan's style of drunk posting if possible, your mix and match crap isn't fun to get through at all.

fixed.

[Parama]

Nul's coming off as a newb more than anything to me. Not that that means he isn't newbscum, just that his actions are more newbie mistakes than anything. He is coming off as rather scummy, especially the recent DocPotter wagon vote, I will admit.
Both Kyle only posted again once they were called out for lurking, and both posted pretty close together as well with a vote for the same person... my scumdar beeped at both of these things. But then again I know how kyle plays regardless of his alignment so this isn't too surprising of a response from him <_<

Some major fence sitting here. Nul is more newb, but he could be scum, but more likely newb, but is coming off scummy. I dont think ive seen someone go back and forth that many times in two sentances. Then kyle is lurking, and scummy, but it a nulltell for him (out of interest, have you seen town-kyle?). Either way, he just sets up two players that he can go and throw a vote on at will.

I said that his play is consistent with average newbie play, but that I'm not going to dismiss the possibility that he isn't scum just because of newbie play. And he comes off scummy because of the newbie-play that people find scummy. It's not going back and forth, it's presenting my read.
Yes, I have seen town-kyle. In fact, in the very first game I played, which was offsite. He got wagoned pretty close to a lynch on D1 for similar play that I've seen out of him as scum.
And I could have voted them, but I didn't, and I haven't, because I do not feel they are scum. Of course, this might change at a later date.

Not posting very often [wolf], little content when posting, bad reason for voting Datadanne, wagoned DocPotter. Caught my eye with his early posting and I feel this guy is scum from what I've read.

Why him over the other lurkers in the game? Why is his data vote bad? (hint it isnt)

It was because he was active lurking, not posting much and when he did post most of the time it wasn't saying much.
...
Well damn. Rereading the thread again his posts actually make a lot of sense.
I have no excuse for my vote on wolf. I misread his posts :/ Go ahead, lynch me for it. I dare you.
He's still not posting that often regardless. Whatever.

Why thank you. I'm glad you think that. Anyways I didn't post my full thoughts on him, just a brief summary. I also don't have the time to post full thoughts right now either. So be patient.
Anyways, I would support a DocPotter lynch. Points brought up by everybody else, and he seems to have given up, resorting to AtE in his most recent post. Wasn't sure about it when the wagon was first forming but his reactions reek of scum. Just not good at all.

unvote, Vote: DocPotter

. Still would like a wolf lynch but this one's just as good IMO.

lol what?

He goes from wanting wolf lynched in part due to wagoning DP to wanting DP lynched, but still wanting wolf lynched... I know he says he wasnt sure at first, but this is a sub 24-hour turnaround

And the reasons I gave on DocPotter were partly influenced by posts he had made in the last 24 hours. Got a problem with that?

However, DocPotter's vote on kyle doesn't make sense IMO. If Doc was scum I would think he'd find a good reason to jump on the syke wagon. But then again... syke was pretty reluctant to vote DocPotter. And he only switched after the Doc wagon lost momentum and was head towards him. I think we may have found a scumteam here. Syke's bussing his partner to save himself, whereas Doc doesn't want to vote his partner in fear of being called out for bussing. But if I look at it that way, then either decision would've gotten them called out... kinda WIFOM. But if any response would make them look scummy, that could mean they're both scum. Eh. There's some sort of logical fallacy in my argument it seems that's causing this problem. Can't be bothered to find it right now. If anyone figures out the problem I'd be glad to fix it and see what impact it has on this theory I've set up.

Look at all this stuff on SD-DP. He has just lined up to lynch either of them based on presented information regardless of what either of them flip. Stunning really.

...
Really? No. That's a misrep. I'm saying here that they are a likely scumteam and giving my evidence. And my argument fell into WIFOM territory at the end. I would not be against lynching either of them, so I'm not going to change my vote simply to hop off one wagon I agree with onto another I agree with.

For now, my vote stays. If both are scum, then I don't have any reason to switch from one to the other.

Oh and more reasoning to shuffle back to a SD lynch

Actually, a reason why I'm not going to jump off the DP wagon yet. Like I said, I think both are scum together. It's kinda setting up lynches in advance but the logical connections I've made between them seem to hold up. I don't see why you'd want to criticize me for building an argument that I feel links them as scum. If you don't agree with it then I'm not going to care but if you call me out for using logic to try and catch scum I'm not sure you're even playing the right game here.
Hmm, I don't even remember if I ever voted syke .-. I don't think I have.

Just go read everything he has been saying about SD-DP and see if you cant reach the same conclusion. Nothing has been solid, everything has allowed him to just wander around between the wagons regardless of what happens for the rest of the game.

I never make anything definite. Nothing is definite. Anyone is free to switch wagons as they please. How is it a scumtell if I'm happy with two lynches on two people I find scummy individually and potentially a scumteam as well?

I'm just going to say that your case isn't solid and is full of misrep or misreading. The only valid point is my failvote on wolf.