Mini 902: Pick your Poison 4 (Game over!)

[Anon]

I cant believe Im actually getting shit for having a very reliable town read and asking for scumlists.

Really, really, raelly?

You are the only person in this game to blatantly tell someone to not look at someone else. We're on day 1, and you're saying that I shouldn't even suspect, or get anyone to consider suspecting Farside. Why? What benefit is there in not suspecting everyone? If you can think of a single pro-town reason to refrain from so much as suspecting player of the game, I'd love to hear it.

There are a lot of protown reasons to refrain from suspecting a player of the game, but the principal is that you reduce the pool of suspects, which helps you scumhunt more effectively, which at the same time generates more right lynches, which at the same time gets town more close to victory.

Basically, I have a very STRONG town read on farside, which makes me think that people suspecting her are either scumbags or wrong townies. Since I also have a slight town read on you, based primarily on gut, Im assuming the later, which is the principal reason why Im telling you that suspecting farside is not a good idea. Now you are free to listen me or at least try to understand the arguments Im using to explain my town read on her. Why EXACTLY do you disagree with them? What EXACTLY makes me scum in the stance Ive taken?


Now, scotmany.

Also, I never said scumlists are bad. I attacked Anon for asking for scumlists

Why is this a scumtell? Really, tell me now.

I attacked him for tunneling

Having three suspects is definitely not tunneling. TRY AGAIN.

Or maybe you should also vote yourself because you are also tunneling against me.

ignoring other players

Not a scumtell. TRY AGAIN.

Or maybe you should also vote yourself because in your iso, you have ignored: sajin and talked minimmaly of yosarin2, porochaz, cooldog.

implying that he knew farside's alignments

Having a town read is definitely not implying I know farside's alignment, TRY AGAIN.

Or maybe you should also vote yourself because you are also implying that you know RBT's alignment.

Why are you attacking me with a bunch of nulltells, that YOU HAVE ALSO COMMITTED?

............

What does everyone think of scotmany case against me? I know what Eli and Leech think but what about the others?

[scotmany12]

There is a difference between saying "I think RBT is town and am getting town vibes from him" and "Farside is town, don't even look at her." Huge difference. And I already explained why you asking for scumlists is scummy. First off, it's day one. You aren't going to get anything from scumlists. And you're pretending to contribute instead of actually contributing.

I've looked at every other player. I'm not tunneling on you. Yos bugs me cause he doesn't want to hypoclaim, I hated farside's little interaction with me. I attacked leech before, and said that i had a guttell on ortolan.

And once again, you don't hypoclaim in your post. Everyone who refuses to do so is scummy.

Also, the first part of your post is a huge appeal to emotion.

[Patrick]

boberz replaces CallMeLiam. Thanks!

[Patrick]

Votecount

Riceballtail (6) -- Yosarian2, ortolan, Anon, farside22, CooLDoG, Porochaz
Anon (3) -- scotmany12, Ellibereth, Leech
Yosarian2 (1) -- Sajin

Not voting: boberz, Riceballtail
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[boberz]

im in, im gonna try and catch up, but i sense im gonna struggle. I have only played 1 newbie game so if i ask questions they may well be genuine questions and not traps etc.

[Ellibereth]

Prodded, and I'll actually go read through the topic now. TBH the stuff in the beginning about choosing roles etc. doesn't interest me that much so I may just skim through it...
RBT should claim, Anon makes me chuckle.

[Leech]

There are a lot of protown reasons to refrain from suspecting a player of the game, but the principal is that you reduce the pool of suspects, which helps you scumhunt more effectively, which at the same time generates more right lynches, which at the same time gets town more close to victory.

Unless, bear with me here, she actually is scum. Intentionally refraining from suspecting a player could actually cost the town the game. If we just assume one person is town this early, it could really bite us in the asses later. If a couple of day phases had gone by and after all that time she continually had the majority strongly seeing her as town, then I'd agree with you. On day 1, though? No way. It's far too early to start narrowing down the pool of suspects. Also, you didn't tell me to refrain from suspecting her, you told me quite blatantly that she's town and to pretty much not even consider her as scum. Those are two very different things. Had you said something like "I think she's town, so you might want to look at other suspects" it would be one thing, but you said "Farside is town, don't even go there." One's suggestive and the other is a demand.

Now you are free to listen me or at least try to understand the arguments Im using to explain my town read on her. Why EXACTLY do you disagree with them?

Can you point out where you've made an argument for her case? I'm not sure how I'm supposed to agree or disagree with an argument that I haven't even seen posted. The only thing you posted about her before telling me "don't go there" was this:

First for the fact that I think farside scum would be more careful with attacking someone of the reputation of yosarian2. So I think this is more probable farside town thinking he saw something damning and pushed the case, as an inquisitive townie would do. Yosarian's answers also feel good to me.

I'm not sure how that gives you a "strong town read" when it's all WIFOM based on how you assume she'd behave as scum. Why exactly do I disagree with this argument? (It's the only one I can even find) I disagree because you don't know the exact level of caution she'd take against a player.

What EXACTLY makes me scum in the stance Ive taken?

You're acting like you've been on this giant campaign to argue for Farside when you haven't. You've mentioned her twice in this game unless I missed something in your ISO. Once was the quote above, and the other was when you blatantly told me not to suspect her. I'm far more suspicious of your reaction to me questioning her, than I ever was of her to begin with.

And once again, you don't hypoclaim in your post. Everyone who refuses to do so is scummy.

I completely disagree with that. I've posted, twice, in this thread a reason why hypoclaiming can be bad for the town:

Let's make this a worst case scenario to show you how bad it can be. There's three scum in this game and 9 town players. If we all hypoclaim that could make it so 3 players on the town's side hypoclaim protecting scum. If none of those three players die, then it cuts down on who could be the weak doc by 1/3'rd. Meaning, now instead of them having to locate the weak doc out of 9, they have a 1/6 chance of nailing that role. It can easily narrow down, for the scum, who the weak doc actually is.

Sure, the hypoclaiming may have worked in the past, but it's no guarantee it will work in this game. I'm completely opposed to the idea for that very reason.

Scot, do you find that to be scummy logic? If so, why?

[Riceballtail]

VOTE:Anon

CLAIM OR DIE!!!!1111

Clearly a good lynch for today.

(Also, I'm the cop.)

[Yosarian2]

There is a difference between saying "I think RBT is town and am getting town vibes from him" and "Farside is town, don't even look at her."

Wait, where did Anon say that?

I see three posts where Anon said he thought farside was town. There was this one:

Anyways, this feels town-town so far. First for the fact that I think farside scum would be more careful with attacking someone of the reputation of yosarian2. So I think this is more probable farside town thinking he saw something damning and pushed the case, as an inquisitive townie would do.

Then there were two more where he was pretty much just agreeing with points I had made.

Unvote vote farside22

For the record, I agree that farside isn't really making any sense here, but I think she's probably town.

QFT.

I havent bothered to read the Sajin-Yos stuff with the exception of the CAPS Yos used. IIRC, Sajin was prob the only one that was supporting a vengeful scum in day 0.

.

Unvote vote farside22

For the record, I agree that farside isn't really making any sense here, but I think she's probably town.

Can I get some more detail on this? Do you think she often talks kind of incoherently (no offence) as town? Do you think it is in fact a town-tell? Or do you get a townie vibe from her posts in spite of her incomprehensible position on chamber?

It dosn't really have anything to do with her position on charter. At this point, I'd say it's a general vibe I get from her posts; willing to disagree with the majority on issues, and yet willing to listen to reason and be flexible at the same time; that's usually a combination I see more often from townies then from scum. Scum usually either follow the crowd, or else they stake out a position they think they can defend and never budge from it.

I partially agree with this. I also get an extreme sincere vibe from here posts. Like she is not worried of being wrong.

I don't see anywhere where he "tells people to not even look at her" or whatever. Just the opposite; he asks Leech to explain why Leech disagrees with Anon's points about farside.

I do agree with you that the obsessive asking for scum lists, to the point where he's almost doing that instead of scumhunting, is unhelpful, but I don't see what you're talking about here, Scot. Especially since I also have a strong feeling that farside is town here.

[scotmany12]

]Let's make this a worst case scenario to show you how bad it can be. There's three scum in this game and 9 town players. If we all hypoclaim that could make it so 3 players on the town's side hypoclaim protecting scum. If none of those three players die, then it cuts down on who could be the weak doc by 1/3'rd. Meaning, now instead of them having to locate the weak doc out of 9, they have a 1/6 chance of nailing that role. It can easily narrow down, for the scum, who the weak doc actually is.

Sure, the hypoclaiming may have worked in the past, but it's no guarantee it will work in this game. I'm completely opposed to the idea for that very reason.

Scot, do you find that to be scummy logic? If so, why?

If the scum find the weak doc (If we have one) with hypoclaiming, then they find them. But at least we will have at least some people who can be confirmed innocent if we get rid of the gf. I think people are viewing the weak doc too much as a protective role. It's not. It's an investigative role. And if we have one we need to use it in the best way to catch scum. And that involves hypoclaiming. People need to understand that we gain nothing by not hypoclaiming. Cause if the weakdoc dies then, we don't have any of the results to work off of.

[Anon]

VOTE:Anon

CLAIM OR DIE!!!!1111

Clearly a good lynch for today.

(Also, I'm the cop.)

Obvious Fakeclaim.

We can lynch RBT now.

[Porochaz]

Wait a sec RBT, your a cop yet you are on L-2 long before deadline up until the last 24 hours, L-1 and then you claim? Big humungous fail if your town, as it was clear you were going to be top suspect near deadline anyway. Fail if your scum, as I think its too late. I call foul on that claim. Yes I know, its day 1 etc. but scum essentially have safeclaims this game.

[scotmany12]

Prodded.

Game is dying, we need that fresh replacement and some scumlists.

Cooldog and scotmany, please scumlists in following posts.

Still happy with my Riceballtail vote.

Leech, farside is town so dont even go there

. Why dont you like the RBT wagon?

Right there yos.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 27#2081127

And I'm going to remind everyone that we ended up lynching a cop day one in PYP2. So no, the claim is not and obvious fake claim. It might be, but it's not obvious.

[Anon]

There is a difference between saying "I think RBT is town and am getting town vibes from him" and "Farside is town, don't even look at her."

I really dont see big difference. The idea is taht I think Farside is town so of course I think its useless to look at her.

And I already explained why you asking for scumlists is scummy. First off, it's day one. You aren't going to get anything from scumlists. And you're pretending to contribute instead of actually contributing.

You really have no idea how powerful an scumlist can be in posterior days. In the worse scenario, it forces people to have an stance which Ive heard its pretty good to catch scumbags. Also, Im pretty sure I have done TONS more than just asking scumlists.

I've looked at every other player. I'm not tunneling on you. Yos bugs me cause he doesn't want to hypoclaim, I hated farside's little interaction with me. I attacked leech before, and said that i had a guttell on ortolan.

Pretty sure I have said a lot of other players, other than my 3, three, trois, tres suspects. So if you arent tunneling, then Im not tunneling either.

[Anon]

EBWOP.

Why does me having a town read on farside means Im scum, scotmany and Leech?

[Porochaz]

oh also if Im not in thread tomorrow (likely) then I want it known, if Im weak doc Im protecting Yos2.

[scotmany12]

EBWOP.

Why does me having a town read on farside means Im scum, scotmany and Leech?

You don't get it. You said:

Leech, farside is town so dont even go there.

It's telling people to not even look at farside. And it implies you know her alignment.

VOTE:Anon

CLAIM OR DIE!!!!1111

Clearly a good lynch for today.

(Also, I'm the cop.)

Obvious Fakeclaim.

We can lynch RBT now.

And now you are advocating a quicklynch of a claimed cop.

[Leech]

I really dont see big difference. The idea is taht I think Farside is town so of course I think its useless to look at her.

You don't see the difference between making a suggestion and a demand? You didn't say it was useless to look at her, you demanded that I not do so. There is a huge difference there, are you seriously unable to see that?

Why does me having a town read on farside means Im scum, scotmany and Leech?

Why does it feel like you're intentionally trying to twist my words? Neither Scot or myself have said you're scum for having a town read. I'm not speaking for him, but I'm saying it is scummy when you demand someone in this game to not look at someone. Making a suggestion is fine, making a demand is a different story.

[Porochaz]

Scot I hate to admit it, but I agree with Anon, the claims obviously a fake, 24 hours from deadline and been at L-2 for ages with no chance of turning and with a viable fakeclaim. Its total bullshit.

[Anon]

@Scot: You are the one who doesnt get it.

Townhunting is pretty much as valuable as scumhunting. If I have a town read on a player then yes, I dont have any problems in suggesting/demmanding people to not waste time there.

Based on your same logic, you ARE also scum for having a town read on RBT, implying that YOU also know he is town.

See how retarded that argument is?

Anyways, what do I win with calling farside town? What is my scum motivation for doing so? Why isnt Yosarian also scummy for this?

.............

Also, yeah, good job on believing someone that claimed cop with less than 24 hours to deadline, let the wagon grew without pretty much any basic defense, claimed in parenthesis and voted a player he hadnt even suspected before. If thats not a fakeclaim trying to draw the real cop, then I dont know what it is.

[Yosarian2]

Uh. Wow.

Unvote:RBT

for the moment.


Why'd you wait so long to claim, RBT? Now i don't know if we'll have time to lynch someone else; if you are a pro-town cop, why didn't you claim days ago, and give us a chance to find scum.

[Anon]

You don't see the difference between making a suggestion and a demand? You didn't say it was useless to look at her, you demanded that I not do so. There is a huge difference there, are you seriously unable to see that?

Of course I know the difference between a suggestion and a demand.

I feel we are just arguing semmantics here while the basic idea is being left out.

I think farside is town. So I could a)suggest you to not suspect her or b)demmand you to not suspect her. I simply picked option b because it is stronger, it reinforces my idea while option a pretty much would have been forgotten. The point is why is this scummy? I simply dont get it.

but I'm saying it is scummy when you demand someone in this game to not look at someone. Making a suggestion is fine, making a demand is a different story.

WHY?!

[scotmany12]

@Scot: You are the one who doesnt get it.

Townhunting is pretty much as valuable as scumhunting. If I have a town read on a player then yes, I dont have any problems in suggesting/demmanding people to not waste time there.

Based on your same logic, you ARE also scum for having a town read on RBT, implying that YOU also know he is town.

Wow. I never said RBT is town. I said I believe him to be town. You came right out and said, "Farside is town." There is a distinct fucking difference. Stop playing dumb.

Anyways, what do I win with calling farside town? What is my scum motivation for doing so? Why isnt Yosarian also scummy for this?

Yos never said "Farside is town." And don't think I didn't miss the wifom in this post.

Also, yeah, good job on believing someone that claimed cop with less than 24 hours to deadline, let the wagon grew without pretty much any basic defense, claimed in parenthesis and voted a player he hadnt even suspected before.

If thats not a fakeclaim trying to draw the real cop, then I dont know what it is.

And stop fucking putting words into my mouth. I never said I believe his claim. I didn't jump to conclusions like you and chaz are doing. And the bolded is such a stupid thing to say. I can't decided if it's scummy or if you just weren't thinking.

[Yosarian2]

Hmm...yeah, I kind of agree with Prozac here; it's very likely the claim is a fake, it'd be easy enough since hte scum know what roles are and aren't in the game. I'm still kind of weirded out by the idea of lynching a claimed cop day 1 though.

[Ellibereth]

Yeah, let's not lynch RBT today. I would prefer to see what happens at Night.
If ima weak doc, I'm protecting Poro.