Mini 912 - Little Golden Mafia (OVER)

[Phlight]

Trumpet, you seem to be missing my points completely. Let me see if I can make this simpler for you.

Point 1) Mason generally means 'confirmed town alignments of all masons in the group to all masons in the group'. So I took DS' mason-claim to mean that, and will continue to do so until he tells us otherwise.

Point 2) If both masons claim, town still doesn't know their alignment; only that they're the same alignment (assuming that they are confirmed, as noted in Point 1, above)

Point 3) Scum, however, knows their alignment (assuming a standard scum ratio, a scumgroup of three players would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the masons are town, unless riceballtail has five scum in this game, which isn't likely.

Point 4) Scum can use that information as they see fit. They could decide to keep the masons alive in order to gain a WIFOM-fueled mislynch, or they could decide to kill the masons, depending on whether the masons appeared to be competent players. DS, from what I've seen, is hardly a threat to the scum if he's town, but the partner could be myself, or Panzerjager, or some other competent player. If the scum decides that the masons are not a threat, they won't kill the masons; instead, they'll kill whomever they suspect of being a cop or a doctor or what-have-you, and now are more likely to hit because they know two players who

aren't

the power-role they're seeking.

Conclusion: In essence, revealing the name (and to a lesser extent, the title, as it might force the other mason to fakeclaim or reveal his role before it's advantageous to him) gives information to both the town and the scum, which is always a double-edged sword. In this case, the extra information clearly helps scum, because it better informs them on how to make night-kill decisions and on which mislynches to push, but

it does not help town

.

The identity and rolename of the mason partner, if any, are for that partner to reveal if and when he so chooses, and no one else.

FomS: Trumpet of Doom

for being so anxious to make public information that is so much more beneficial to scum than town.

VOTE COUNT:

DedicatedScribe (3) - Panzerjager, Trumpet of Doom, totallynotmafia
dramonic (0) -
kunkstar7 (0) -
Limerickx (1) - Kunkstar7
lobstermania (1) - dramonic
MacavityLock (0) -
Panzerjager (0) -
peanutman (1) - DedicatedScribe
Phlight (0) -
totallynotmafia (2) - lobstermania, peanutman
Trumpet of Doom (1) - Limerickx
Wolframnhart (0) -

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[Phlight]

Mod: DedicatedScribe has not posted in 72 hours. Can you confirm that he's been prodded?

[Phlight]

In addition:
MacavityLock hasn't posted for 72 hours.
Panzerjager hasn't posted for 84 hours.

And would you update the first post to reflect that chamber has been replaced, please?

Thank you in advance.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Trumpet, you seem to be missing my points completely. Let me see if I can make this simpler for you.

Point 1) Mason generally means 'confirmed town alignments of all masons in the group to all masons in the group'. So I took DS' mason-claim to mean that, and will continue to do so until he tells us otherwise.

Point 2) If both masons claim, town still doesn't know their alignment; only that they're the same alignment (assuming that they are confirmed, as noted in Point 1, above)

Point 3) Scum, however, knows their alignment (assuming a standard scum ratio, a scumgroup of three players would know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the masons are town, unless riceballtail has five scum in this game, which isn't likely.

Point 4) Scum can use that information as they see fit. They could decide to keep the masons alive in order to gain a WIFOM-fueled mislynch, or they could decide to kill the masons, depending on whether the masons appeared to be competent players. DS, from what I've seen, is hardly a threat to the scum if he's town, but the partner could be myself, or Panzerjager, or some other competent player. If the scum decides that the masons are not a threat, they won't kill the masons; instead, they'll kill whomever they suspect of being a cop or a doctor or what-have-you, and now are more likely to hit because they know two players who

aren't

the power-role they're seeking.

Conclusion: In essence, revealing the name (and to a lesser extent, the title, as it might force the other mason to fakeclaim or reveal his role before it's advantageous to him) gives information to both the town and the scum, which is always a double-edged sword. In this case, the extra information clearly helps scum, because it better informs them on how to make night-kill decisions and on which mislynches to push, but

it does not help town

.

The identity and rolename of the mason partner, if any, are for that partner to reveal if and when he so chooses, and no one else.

FomS: Trumpet of Doom

for being so anxious to make public information that is so much more beneficial to scum than town.

1. This probably isn't worth arguing - I don't know I'd be as confident as you seem to be that mason implies confirmed, but it doesn't really matter.
2. Didn't I just say that?
3. Not in dispute (RBT doesn't seem like the type of mod to make an unconfirmed mason pair town-SK), though I'm trying to leave room for some kind of planned claim from two scum players.
4, I think, is where we're having issues.

I'm having trouble seeing why having confirmed town is a bad thing. And if DS's partner and replacement (which I'm guessing will happen - he hasn't posted anywhere onsite since Tuesday) are good town players, scum are more or less going to have to kill them, yes? (Even if DS sticks around and isn't too good, if he claims confirmed and his partner dies, scum still have to get him out of the way because they can't lynch him.) So if scum are sinking their kills into masons because they can't get rid of them any other way - and if DS or his replacement claims confirmed and town trusts it, they're not getting lynched, so scum kinda have to NK them - they're giving power roles some free nights to work. If we have a cop, they get two free investigations. If we have a doc, they get some idea whom to protect. You see what I'm getting at?

That said, I've never actually played with masons except for LotA (which had third-party masons) and an ongoing game (well, not straight-up masons, but similar), and it's my understanding that Phate plays on IRC a bunch and probably has more experience with them than I do... so if it comes down to it, I know I should probably (though somewhat reluctantly - I hate to be proven wrong) go with what Phlight says about how to handle mason claims.

(In other news, I should probably refrain from making decisions on someone's towniness or scumminess after about 11:15 PM GMT-6.)

[Phlight]

No, you cannot assume that there are other power roles worth protecting.

Let's say the masons are the only power roles we have because there is no guarantee that we have others:
We just lost all our power roles, and we're in a really bad position as a vanilla town.

IF we have other power roles, so be it, but then why waste our ability to keep as many power roles alive as possible? Plus, your assertion only works if and only if the masons suspect scum (if they kill them no matter who they suspect, the wifom around why they died could lead to a mislynch or have not been strong enough to convict scum who offed them) and the masons are not lying.

Also, masons are at that point confirmed vanilla townies, but they are worthless at that point except to talk to each other if both are alive. So, my point is that they know 12-2-3(Guess at avg scum number)= only 7 people who could have a more threatening power role to the scum's position.

The information of having the partner's name actually does more harm to town's position than good.

[Riceballtail]

Yes, I can confirm that prods have been sent out. Watch for notifications in votecounts.

[dramonic]

Can we just drop the mason arguement, we're going nowhere here.

[Phlight]

Dramonic, we need to discuss how to handle the claim. If you have a better idea or pressing matter, I'm all ears.

[PJ.]

Lynch him. If we mislynch, at least his mason partner can be confirmed and help us in lylo. It's a good scumclaim.

[MacavityLock]

Sorry for not posting anything here. I just don't see how we can move forward without a more complete claim from DS, specifically bookname claim and whether or not the mason partner is confirmed. Until we get that, from either DS or a replacement, I don't think it's worthwhile to distract.

[wolframnhart]

I agree with Mac that we can't really move forward with a mason claim hanging over our heads. I do find it odd though that i think everyone has posted at this point and no one has stood up and claimed they were his partner.

[Phlight]

Why would his partner claim, wolf?

[wolframnhart]

I was starting to type up why his partner should claim, but really thinking on it, maybe he shouldn't.

Now DS claims mason. Had he been around to do so he would have to claim "so and so" as his partner. If that person denies it, DS gets auto lynched for lying.

If that person confirms it (and confirms town alignment) then two town power roles are out there for night kills. I would think that scum would take them down, however maybe that is not the case. If two masons are out there, that narrows the list of power roles for scum to try and target, if they leave the masons alone for a night or two (and not taking into account that there might be an SK or Vig) they can try and find an investigation role or a protection role instead, which would be more detrimental to them.

I think now after typing all that out and playing it in my head that the mason partner should not claim at this time. However we will need to hear from DS's replacement (I assume he will be replaced because it seems he is ina few games).

[Limerickx]

I'm back too, and also realize that I don't see where else to go until we hear more about the claim.......

[dramonic]

he's been replaced in other games...

[Riceballtail]

Mass prod and deadline coming soon.

[lobstermania]

I'm here, waiting to read DedicatedScribe's response to any/all of this....

[kunkstar7]

Can we ask for a replacement for DS? Most of this game's momentum right now depends on how he claims.

[peanutman]

Seeing as how everyone's just waiting for DS to come back or have a replacement, I've decided to look into what happened before his claim. And one thing that Dramonic first raised but then got lost with the mason-business is Panzerjager's calling for a claim with only 4 votes on DS. That's an early call for a claim IMO and definitely requires some explaining. At that early stage, it's just rolefishing more than anything else. PJ, please explain what you were thinking when you asked for that.

Add to that, after the mason claim, the only thing he says is "lynch DS" because it's a good scum claim and if he was telling the truth, well, we could have a confirmed townie in lylo. When I think of it, this post is worse, and horrible town play. It's like he asked him to claim but was ready to lynch him regardless. Something does seem right in here and I want to find out more.

Unvote, Vote : Panzerjager

[peanutman]

Also, guys, let's not just wait for DS to show up or be replaced because inactivity is what scum wants. If the town gets focused exclusively on DedicatedScribe D1, we will have lost the potential of getting information and posts regarding others as well. That being said, DS's claim is the elephant in the thread right now and should be rightfully addressed once more information comes from him or his replacement, but until then, let's not be complacent. Let's get busy.

[Trumpet of Doom]

Phlight: Pretty much the only way I can see the masons being our only PRs (if this game's balanced) is if there are only 2 scum. If we assume 3 scum (and I haven't seen a good reason not to), we basically have to have another PR for balance.

I'd expect scum to try to kill the masons if they're confirmed town and

either's

a good player. What I'm thinking is that they'd kill the good one first (because he's a good player and confirmed town), but then they'd have someone else who won't be lynched, so they'll have to kill them.

That said, I do see the point someone (forget who and don't feel like checking... maybe dramonic) made that if someone else claims mason partner and is lying, they can be counterclaimed... didn't think of that before. (Also, I don't bother with NK WIFOM and who it'd incriminate unless I suspect there's exactly one scum left. Seems like it'd be even less straightforward to figure it out with multiple living scum than with just one. Maybe that's just me, though.)

peanutman: That's an interesting point about Panzer; however, you're setting off warning bells regarding something that I've heard mentioned as a scumtell before and should probably do some research on in my copious spare time... it's along the lines of "first person to seriously accuse someone else of rolefishing is generally scum." Has anyone else heard something like that, or am I just imagining things?

Lastly, I should probably declare that I'll have

limited access for the rest of the week.

[wolframnhart]

Not really sure on the "rolefishing" thing there trumpet. If I think someone is role fishing I will normally point it out, regardless of alignment, though I must have missed what peanut is talking about.

[Riceballtail]

DS has now had enough time to return from his prod, and will be replaced.

[Trumpet of Doom]

I don't know how accurate it is either, wolf, that's why I asked. I'm sure I thought whomever I heard it from knew what he was talking about, but I can't remember who it was.

It looks to me like peanut's saying that Panzer's pushing for a wagon-to-claim in 77 was rolefishing. Looking at it, I think it's a stretch at best to call it that, although I agree that his push to lynch DS without his/his replacement's even saying whether they're confirmed to each other or not is WTF (but not fishing).

[totallynotmafia]

So now I guess we wait to see what the replacement has to say...