Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[Flareonage]

Day 1 Vote Count

ace5993 ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 2 ) plum popsofctown
elvis_knits ( 3 ) Raskol Albert B. Rampage farside22
evilsnail ( 1 ) DrippingGoofball
farside22 ( 0 )
fishythefish ( 0 )
flareonage ( 0 )
gayle ( 0 )
Albert B. Rampage ( 0 )
mykonian ( 2 ) Rhinox flareonage
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 1 ) gayle
Raskol ( 5 ) evilsnail ojanen elvis_knits mykonian fishythefish
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 1 ) ace5993
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

Note that I didn't call it scummy. I believed it to be antitown, but I never saw it this way.

DGB, wouldn't it be better to keep this quiet until scum attacks a player perceived towny, after which town reaction makes scum having a hard time talking himself out of it? This in stead of showing scum who they can attack?

That assumes that the town has secretly agreed on who is town. There's no way for that to happen, it would make it easier for scum to attack players. DGB's suggestion made much more sense

Unvote

VOTE: Mykonian

[popsofctown]

I would rather have the scum forced to agree with our town reads and concentrate attacks on themselves and people who look like scum.

Hypathetical game.

6 townies, ABCDEF.
3 scums, xyz.

ABCDEF and xyz have some discussion during the day. During this process, Townies A, B, C, D, and E become 90% certain that F is town. They gain some other information, but not anything nearly that significant.

xyz are going to randomly select a townie to attack together. (yes, sometimes scum attack townies together, sometimes apart, it's not relevant to the example which method they go for).

Pro-readlist people would have each player post their opinions. Scum would realize F is a fortress impenetrable, and they select one of the other five players, and shoot F that night. (and don't say they would have known to shoot F that night anyway. If they would have known that anyway, why can't we grant the same assumption of intelligence to townies who haven't seen readlists yet and let them say they don't need the readlist to know who they agree is townie?)

Anti-readlist people would have these reads withheld. xyz might attack F. The lynch still fails. It's not like these readlists put a magic protective halo of holiness around players that look townie, they don't.

Then after the lynch fails, xyz scumteam look scummy.

[evilsnail]

Maybe if xyz are morons.

I'm sorry, but the scenario you're describing is spectacularly unlikely. ABCD are all picking up on some reliable town read that xyz for some reason have no awareness of? This tell, so elusive for scum, is somehow still so reliable that ABCD will not ever doubt it and change their minds. In addition, xyz somehow decide to all go after the same player together, without any plausible suspect action by F and build their case so poorly that ABCD are entirely unconvinced and stick to their town read. In addition, ABCD all recognise that not having this mysterious, magical town read on F means that xyz are scum.

More likely is x goes after F, y waffles on the issue and z disagrees. A changes his mind and goes after F too, B doesn't see what the big deal is and FOSes y for waffling, C is lurking, D is too caught up in his case on A to care and F OMGUSes x after a long drawn-out discussion with x over the minutiae of the discussion after which everyone else, including y and z, is too confused to be able to tell either way. At the end of the day, the only impression anyone is left with is that F did something scummy and this, coupled with F's unimpressive claim, ensures a sloppy mislynch of F when the deadline rolls around.

[popsofctown]

ABCD are all picking up on some reliable town read that xyz for some reason have no awareness of? This tell, so elusive for scum, is somehow still so reliable that ABCD will not ever doubt it and change their minds.

ABCD are all picking up on some reliable town read that is so obvious they have to make lists to tell eachother about it?

In the cases that EVERYONE knows what would be in a readlist, then whether or not one is provided gives no advantage to any player at all.

Thus it is best to examine the cases when what is in the readlist isn't common knowledge.


The how easy it is to read another player has been exaggerated for illustrative purposes.

[DrippingGoofball]

In English, please.

[popsofctown]

This is why no one will understand why they shouldn't post readlists until 3010.

[Plum]

I would rather have the scum forced to agree with our town reads and concentrate attacks on themselves and people who look like scum. Their options are limited and increases the chance they have to buss or if we mislynch then they're all on the wagon.

When you're scum, narrowing your lynch pool is death. You need your options open.

This this this this and this. I've seen EK caught by meta and I don't think this is it at all.

Plum and ABR are both lurkerscumz, so it's going to be especially fun.

Uh huh, uh huh. Why didn't you respond to my attack of a few days ago, might I ask?

That said, I'm really not feeling this game; need a going over it again.

Wait one darn moment . . .

Shouldn't you be fighting scum, in stead of another universe? And I linked Kairyuus post that gives us a confirmed player: that is exploiting the mechanic in a town way.

But if we let too many players switch universe, things might get very confusing, do we agree?

Is this a subtle argument against a proposed way of dealing with the mechanic while trying to look like he's behind it? This doen't look like an "Oh, I like it except couldn't it go bad if X", it looks like "wow, awesome way to do it, we could totally exploit this in favor of the Town . . . but I'm sure it's not as convenient as it looks. I'm sure you all agree!" It's the

pandering

of the tone while subtly trying to dissuade from a plan of action for no good or adequately explained reason (seriously, dude, about as many people are going to be switching places whatever strategy we follow) that makes my stomach turn. I've just successfully erased - reversed a vibe on the guy.

Unvote; Vote: Mykonian

. In fact, I'm still trying to figure out what Myko's proposed strategy

was

. Oh, no Teleportation . . . and then this sort of half-assed endorsement/denouncement of Kairyuu's pull-the-Teleporters plan. And even though he's against all Teleporting, when asked he endorses Kai's plan. How how how the hell does that work, may I ask?

This is why I wanted my post quoted on the other side: it is senseless to shove scummy players between the universes,

it only makes both universes more likely to lose against town.

Care to explain what you meant by the bolded, Myko?

I am fighting scum, entirely in this universe. My vote was for Plum, who I feel was buddying with this universe, by trying to foster a communal hatred of the other universe.

Actually, your vote was on Flare. And I guess I can see where your interpretation was coming from at the beginning of the game; I saw myself engaging in the mild intra-Universe trashtalking going on, but fine.

Am underwhelmed by Flare's OMGUS RVS vote. Meh.

Do not get a scum read off Gayle's position on the RVS. Some people value the RVS a lot a sa source of info/springboard, and I don't see anything so far from that as to call it anything but a nulltell. After more reading, I'm even more sure that it's not actively scummy on Gayle's part; definitely null. Maybe shades of Town, but I've been known to see things.

And now after having found that evil of Myk's above I'm wondering if Myk's BS "major scumslip" of DGB's he's so certain of is really scummy and not just totally clueless (honestly, I may have excused it before partly due to a sort of too-scummy-to-be-scum feeling . . . but I;ve seen scumbags make out totally fake scumtells and ascribe greater certainty to their flawed logic than a sane townie ever would).



Flare, however, is being annoying and possibly scummy.

FOS

Need to go, more later.

[DrippingGoofball]

This is why I wanted my post quoted on the other side: it is senseless to shove scummy players between the universes,

it only makes both universes more likely to lose against town.

Care to explain what you meant by the bolded, Myko?

Brilliant.

If I may have everyone's attention, please: Plum is town.

unvote, vote: mykonian

[CSL]

Wow, I'm not done with the 12th page yet, and I go to this page, and see that. That's one of the biggest slips I have seen in my life!

Vote: mykonian

[Fishythefish]

- Liking Gayle a lot more. Makes a decent case against pops
- I agree with EK about publishing townreads. pops says we want to help the other universe with their pulling – no, we really, really don’t. That seems like an unlikely thought for town – it clearly hurts us if they pull well.
- Flare’s vote for myk is rather horrible. I see the passage of townreads theory as pretty null (with the exception of the above). I don’t understand how you’d get mykscum from it.
- myk’s slip looks bad. @myk: what was going through your head?

[mykonian]

Wow, I'm not done with the 12th page yet, and I go to this page, and see that. That's one of the biggest slips I have seen in my life!

Vote: mykonian

Since there are multiple people talking about this. I honestly don't know why I typed town, could be because I was arguing it would make town lose, or just because I was tired. I have honestly no idea.

But this isn't a scumslip, this is just an incorrect sentence. I can't see how this is a scumslip. The whole argument is to make both towns play strategically better. A scumslip would show I have no interest in making the town play better. But I do!

But I understand typo's where town and scum are exchanged look very bad, so I want this talked out before we go further. Since there are multiple people talking about this there are townies believing this is a scumslip and I don't see it. Could you explain to me what it is?

[Fishythefish]

For me, it's very simple; it looks like your real win condition came into your head as you justified what the right move was, when you meant to type your supposed win condition.

Typos like that do happen, and I'm not sure how much of a scumtell they are.

[mykonian]

For me, it's very simple; it looks like your real win condition came into your head as you justified what the right move was, when you meant to type your supposed win condition.

damn. I see what you could see in that sentence.

But the whole warning was indeed to argue for the right move for town, so even if I was scum, I would have been arguing for town. The scum-wincondition is not related to it in any way (scum would benefit from confusion), so really, this was just a typo, seen the way it doesn't fit in the point I'm making.

But I guess I should read my own posts before posting to avoid this. Sorry.

[mykonian]

and I wasn't tired, I checked the post time, and it was just after dinner

[Fishythefish]

For me, it's very simple; it looks like your real win condition came into your head as you justified what the right move was, when you meant to type your supposed win condition.

damn. I see what you could see in that sentence.

But the whole warning was indeed to argue for the right move for town, so even if I was scum, I would have been arguing for town. The scum-wincondition is not related to it in any way (scum would benefit from confusion), so really, this was just a typo, seen the way it doesn't fit in the point I'm making.

But I guess I should read my own posts before posting to avoid this. Sorry.

So, here's the scum thought process/fail.
You are trying to look protown in strategy discussions.
You give what you think is a protown strategy.
You then say, "and so it will help us win".
But you get the wrong "us" in this last clause.

I can also see another thought process/fail. You were typing the last sentence quickly, and the sentence "it only makes both universes more likely to lose against scum" melded with the sentence "it only makes both towns more likely to lose against scum" in an unfortunate way. The use of universe/town interchangeably in this game is exactly the kind of thing that leads to such typos.

Or, of course, the wrong word came out of your fingers for no reason. This happens, although this would be a particularly unfortunate mixup.

I find it hard to pick between these (I've had no experience of the "admitting that you're scum" type of scumslip). The first obviously makes you scum, the second and third are nulltells. For me, it is and will remain a significant point against you, but I don't think it's worthy of an instant lynch.

[mykonian]

For me, it is and will remain a significant point against you,

I know it will be. Esspecially since slips are very strong evidence, it will be remembered. So every next argument against me will end with: and he had the slip.

Unfortunate is an understatement. People will now read every point as if I'm trying to manipulate them.

[DrippingGoofball]

But this isn't a scumslip, this is just an incorrect sentence. I can't see how this is a scumslip. The whole argument is to make both towns play strategically better. A scumslip would show I have no interest in making the town play better. But I do!

Haha, I see you have your bases covered to make it look like what you decided to frame as a scumslip from me, is worse that your own

bona fide

scumslip!

DIE SCUM

[elvis_knits]

Regarding this slip, myko, can you explain what you supposedly meant if you had written "against scum" instead of "against town"?

How is teleporting scummy players more likely to make the towns in both universes lose?

Even without the slip business, Plum has pointed out that myko has been suggesting not using the teleporting, as it would be too confusing or something, and would somehow make us lose. It's a little ridiculous to suggest that the game mechanic is inherently tilted to hurt the town. I want to hear more about why myko believes this.

My problem with an anti-teleporting stance is that I think scum might be anti-teleporting. Because if their scum team gets split it is PROBABLY bad for them. If both universes agree that we are teleporting players we think are scum and pulling players we think are town, then any teleported player is automatically placed under high scrutiny in the other universe. If they are not lynched immediately, they probably will be before endgame. Not to mention the extra challenge of the scum team playing in both universes while the telported player is alive. It's just all kinds of problems that the team doesn't want. They DO NOT want to be teleported, so I can see scum being anti-teleporting as a strategy.

So I want to hear from myko how anti-teleporting could be pro-town.

(And I also still want to know why you were so against my read list but didn't say anything bad about dgb posting read lists).

[DrippingGoofball]

(And I also still want to know why you were so against my read list but didn't say anything bad about dgb posting read lists).

I'm against your read list.

[mykonian]

But this isn't a scumslip, this is just an incorrect sentence. I can't see how this is a scumslip. The whole argument is to make both towns play strategically better. A scumslip would show I have no interest in making the town play better. But I do!

Haha, I see you have your bases covered to make it look like what you decided to frame as a scumslip from me, is worse that your own

bona fide

scumslip!

DIE SCUM

I didn't see how it could be percieved as a slip, sorry. I find it slightly amusing that you call you are framed, while I am making a slip in stead of a mistake.

@Elvis. I am sure I have already typed this up multiple times, but here we go again.

Teleporting people makes the game confusing because the new player in this universe would have to read up the game. The universe would have to read the other universes game to learn the allignment of the player. Like the whole game has to be partially replaced on the start of day 2, if that makes it clearer. Let this happen over multiple nights and I forsee that the town either goes into massive lurking because they can't read everything, or they don't read it and still post, which will result in a lot of bad reads. I believe that the mechanic indeed doesn't help the town until endgame.

Esspecially the plans to use the vig as a sort of vig (sending the scum to the other universe), is bound to fail since they would do the same. Sure, we could win if we are more effective, leaving them with the rest of the scum. However, the same could happen to us, but more likely, since both towns are not that different, we would just mess up both games.

So again, why is it percieved to be antitown to argue for a 12-3 game with 2 confirmable roles? I have enough confidence we'll win that, like said by others, by simple and decent scumhunting.

[mykonian]

@Docpotter: posts 220 and 224 show how Jack takes a quote, and in then makes it so that the person is essentially arguing against himself. He reasons logically from the quote to get to something untrue in Elmo's case, and actually attacks Fghtwas with it.

Since both players obviously didn't intent for their words to be used this way, Jack is strawmanning. He tries to be smarter then the rest of the game by logically deriving the others are wrong, from their own words.

and sorry, Elvis, the answer was still on notepad. I forgot when I had to defend. And I'll hate the person who can twist this in being scummy.

Blue is theory again.

@ myko, why did you pitch a fit when I posted my reads, but said nothing when DGB posted her reads?

I think DGB is scum, and I told you I wouldn't have done that because it was sub-optimal town play. It is of little use to say that to someone that is scum.

DGB, wouldn't it be better to keep this quiet until scum attacks a player perceived towny, after which town reaction makes scum having a hard time talking himself out of it? This in stead of showing scum who they can attack?

You're not trying to change the way I always play, are you???

I ask you why your way is better then letting scum attack someone percieved town and then catch him on that? You seem to think so, I want your reason. But leave this question, Elvis answered.

Note that I didn't call it scummy. I believed it to be antitown, but I never saw it this way.

DGB, wouldn't it be better to keep this quiet until scum attacks a player perceived towny, after which town reaction makes scum having a hard time talking himself out of it? This in stead of showing scum who they can attack?

That assumes that the town has secretly agreed on who is town. There's no way for that to happen, it would make it easier for scum to attack players. DGB's suggestion made much more sense

Unvote

VOTE: Mykonian

see the question mark? I propose another theory, indeed assuming that town who think the same (well, should), somewhat agree on who is obviously town. You think this assumption is wrong: how is it scummy?

Shouldn't you be fighting scum, in stead of another universe? And I linked Kairyuus post that gives us a confirmed player: that is exploiting the mechanic in a town way.

But if we let too many players switch universe, things might get very confusing, do we agree?

Is this a subtle argument against a proposed way of dealing with the mechanic while trying to look like he's behind it? This doen't look like an "Oh, I like it except couldn't it go bad if X", it looks like "wow, awesome way to do it, we could totally exploit this in favor of the Town . . . but I'm sure it's not as convenient as it looks. I'm sure you all agree!" It's the

pandering

of the tone while subtly trying to dissuade from a plan of action for no good or adequately explained reason (seriously, dude, about as many people are going to be switching places whatever strategy we follow) that makes my stomach turn. I've just successfully erased - reversed a vibe on the guy.

Kai's strategy was to create a confirmed towny by letting the claimed teleporters change play on that moment. These then had to be killed by the scum. (this later proved to be an impossible tactic because of the rules)

There was also talking about sending scummy players to the other universe. These stay in the game, are not confirmed scum or town, etc: these confuse.

So while I argued that we shouldn't do that, the plan to create confirmed townies was good. I argued against sending scummy players, but in favor using Kai's idea to make confirmed townies.

Unvote; Vote: Mykonian

. In fact, I'm still trying to figure out what Myko's proposed strategy

was

. Oh, no Teleportation . . . and then this sort of half-assed endorsement/denouncement of Kairyuu's pull-the-Teleporters plan. And even though he's against all Teleporting, when asked he endorses Kai's plan. How how how the hell does that work, may I ask?

It doesn't work. We thought it did on that moment. And I was fully in favor of it, seen previous quote. So nothing half assed, and I am against teleporting scummy players between the universes. This tactic solves nothing (on average just as many get send here as are send there), but does create confusion.

This is why I wanted my post quoted on the other side: it is senseless to shove scummy players between the universes,

it only makes both universes more likely to lose against town.

Care to explain what you meant by the bolded, Myko?

Sure. I used the wrong word. They are more likely to lose against scum, when scummy players get send between the universes. Sorry. Seen my other posts, I hope the message came through.

And now after having found that evil of Myk's above I'm wondering if Myk's BS "major scumslip" of DGB's he's so certain of is really scummy and not just totally clueless (honestly, I may have excused it before partly due to a sort of too-scummy-to-be-scum feeling . . . but I;ve seen scumbags make out totally fake scumtells and ascribe greater certainty to their flawed logic than a sane townie ever would).

there is a suspicion I could be scum and suddenly everything I say is invalid. Plum, simple solution: look at the point itself and see if you agree it is a point against DGB. It is that way always: you look at what other people say and see how much you yourself agree with it.

[mykonian]

for once, he is right, Elvis. You are not helping. Esspecially it only shows again you focus on gayle-town bad wagon, raskol-scum good wagon. From this assumptions you reason, and this list is your conclusion: I think you don't have used enough input, and when you do have enough, cases on people function better.

We know DGB it is not the first time DGB is wacky. Why did you mention this?

Wait, this post answers itself, Elvis. First, I am not thinking you are scum, but point you the way I would prefer your posts to be: More input, and divided into cases on people. Not a list which mostly gives this info: you assume gayle to be town and raskol to be scum, and you reason other allignments from there.

Not that I mind your questions, but please, we are only filling the thread this way. And I wouldn't mind either if you answered my questions.

[DrippingGoofball]

mykonian is a nervous scum doing cartwheels.

[DrippingGoofball]

Dear Universe Two,

If Jack is scum, given how he's under pressure, it will be the first time I witness scum begging for more activity, when more activity surely would mean more votes and suspicion. Therefore, Jack isn't scum, despite the ooze that covers him.

Lowell, however, needs to die and die quickly.

Your Uni1 Pen Pal,

DGB

[mykonian]

I am not sure what you mean by doing cartwheels, but "annoyed" is the word you should have used. And I know it is asked too much from you to call me town