Teleportation Mafia Universe ONE (MAFIA A WINS!)

[Gayle]

Day 1 Vote Count

ace5993 ( 0 )
DrippingGoofball ( 0 )
elvis_knits ( 0 )
evilsnail ( 0 )
farside22 ( 2 ) gayle evilsnail
fishythefish ( 1 ) flareonage
flareonage ( 0 )
gayle ( 3 ) fishythefish farside22 popsofctown
infinis ( 0 )
mykonian ( 0 )
ojanen ( 0 )
plum ( 0 )
popsofctown ( 0 )
Raskol ( 0 )
Rhinox ( 0 )
Not Voting ( 9 ) ace5993 DrippingGoofball elvis_knits infinis mykonian ojanen plum Raskol Rhinox
Total Votes ( 15 )

With 15 alive, 8 needed to lynch.
Deadline: 2/8 11am

Hay, Gayle, want to discuss the teleporting stuff?

NO

I hear it has to do with your supposed win condition.

My win condition is ending strategy discussion.

Should teleporter claim now, Gayle?

I've not been following the strategy discussion, so I don't know in relation to that. But in general, if you they claim early in the day, no one is going to bother attacking them and one avenue of finding scum is made useless.

[popsofctown]

Yeah, my head was wrinkling about how it was supposed to work with us both on ptt too.




Guys I have an alternate idea to this, see if it sound like it has any merit:

-We lynch rapidly here. The dominant strategy for the teleporter becomes claiming. They claim, and we pull them.
We lynch rapidly again, then push our scummy crap on the other universe.
We lynch rapidly again, then push our scummy crap on the other universe.
We wait for them to do at least one night, so a new teleporter is selected
We lynch rapidly, then we steal their teleporter. Their teleporter wants out at that point because we've filled his universe up with crap. He won't even bother messing with our universe because he knows he can end up here.
Then we lynch rapidly again, then push our scummy crap on the other universe.
And do it again.


Loads of double lynches, the same conf-towns we'd get by cooperating with the other universe. We mess up their universe, which is mean, but we are playing to win. Raskol won't like this plan, I'm sure, but we're more likely to stay in this universe than move to the other one.

[popsofctown]

assuming you haven't teleported/lynched correctly.

That's flawed reasoning. If we are lynching incorrectly, we'll lose anyway. That's like saying a town that gets 3 lynches is disadvantaged.


The other universe might race us, sure, but if we lynch right now we can steal their teleporter, then just try to stay about one day ahead of them the whole game. If they lynch, we lynch too to stay ahead. Since their lynches just makes us speed up, they'll give up and actually thing, stuck with their disadvantage.

I don't think it hurts the universe-pair on the whole. I think it's a zero sum thing, we make it a exactly one smidgen easier for us to win, and exactly one smidgen harder for them to win. Since we are more likely to remain in this universe, this plan is good.

[popsofctown]

I disagree Nicodemus. We'll have shipped one extra scummy player off, and by making our universe a superior universe to live in, we can influence our teleporter to stay and yours to leave.

Arms races are a good thing if you can successfully conquer the other country, and I think this town could converge on a D1 lynch more easily than yours.

[evilsnail]

@Anon: I'll just give you the hypotheical situation below.

Universe 1 goes into night ahead of us. This means that if U2's teleporter claims, the teleporter in U1 can teleport him into U1 at night, and scum won't be able to NK him (because preference is given to the universe which exits the day first). This way, U1 will enter D2 with a completely confirmed townie on their side, and will also dictate the scum kill N2 (unless they want to leave a confirmed alive).

Then, on D2 the actions are reversed - U2 will enter Night ahead of U1, so that U1's teleporter can claim and be teleported into U2. Now U2 has a completely confirmed townie as well, and thus the scum's NK is dictated for N3.

Since the mod has informed us that the pattern of teleports/pulls must be maintained throughout the game, neither side will get a confirm on D3, but the cycle will start again on D4 and D5.

@Nicodemus(love the name btw .. it's what I named my pet rat when I was a kid): Unfortunately, the cycle doesn't repeat until D5 and D6 (N4 and N5), but you're right with everything else.

As for the teleportations, I say we leave that up to whoever is the teleporter at the time. Personally, I think we should leave that up to the teleporter, so that we don't have to argue about it, but it seems the consensus is to send scummy people (which, of course, means we'll be getting Universe 1's scummy people, creating a loop of pointlessness, but I digress).

This seems like the way to go and it's pretty straightforward.

Now, let's hunt scum.

Unvote: farside 22,
Vote: Raskol

For not voting.

[Raskol]

The fact that you chose me out of the four people that have posted since game start without voting is interesting---those being myself, mykonian, DGB, Ojanen.

Any particular reason for that?

[Fishythefish]

Aaaah! I didn't notice that if our teleporter is pulled, we don't get a teleporter that night. Is that new?

*Zoraster Comment: it was new as of just before the game, so if you had read all the rules when you signed up, it had changed after that.*

*Reads all the rules again, very slowly and carefully*

I think that, given the rules, any strategy is currently of marginal benefit.

@pops: that is a good idea only if we can consistently lynch faster than the other universe (and soon enough, it will be a race), while still lynching well. IMO, a bad plan.

[mykonian]

Everything in blue is not related to hunting scum, and can be skipped, if you are short on time.

what are your scumtells when you are scum?

Oh come on this question sucks why should I share my scum tells to hurt me in other games?
I can already hear the people ready to lynch me for the above but telling people your scum tells does hurt you for other games.
idk I range with being quiet, lurky to talkative depending on the game. I do bus my scum partner on many occasions I can think of. I think I jump on cases just with a me too kind of post at times if I feel lost in a game and I don't know where else to go. I notice I don't try to motivate a game and I purposly miss things that are scum tells from my partner if I think they are safe from a lynch or being voted on.
Obviously my scum tell is on a wide range because acting the same in a game means people know you to be scum and use that meta against you.

Although I find your next post nice (you agree with me, finally, someone!), this one just gives me the creeps. If you would be town, there would be nothing to worry about. You could just tell your scumtells. Because acting antitown as towny to protect your scumplay is not done, and the way I know you, you also wouldn't lurk or do other scummy things to protect your scumplay. Then we get a series of scumtells that I know you would avoid if possible (jumping on a wagon with a "me too") and that you are often bussing seems to be a save thing to say as scum. Further, you keep it very general. I can't see someone who loves the game this much doing this as town.

FoS Farside

. But pluspoints for actually answering the question as first player.

Yay, cross kills! How often do those happen during the start of the game, and is the chance that mafia shoots each other worth the confusion? Is it worth the risk they may shoot an extra towny in this universe, etc?

If they shoot an extra townie in one universe, they shoot no townie in the other universe. So, on average, this balances out. A cross-kill, however, is unambiguously good for town.

confusion isn't. Is it worth it?

And what PR is being directed from the start of the game? May I remember you that scum could influence it too then, for their own use? The teleporter is 100% town, lets keep the teleportation 100% town too.

Well yeah, but the same is true of a lynch. I mean, probably leaving up to the teleporter is the way to go, since having to vote for it would be a hassle. But, in principle, it would buy us a lot of info.

You are a person to direct a vig, or a cop? didn't think so. This is because roles function better when not influenced, and when scum can not anticipate to them.

Gayle's answer is pretty null (sorry, didn't know you were a newby), and I like Fishy's post. Though I didn't ask him how he was as town. Because towntells are completely not interesting, and posting them is an ideal hiding place as scum.

On night actions, there is no sensible agreement we can come to - at some point it will be unilaterally broken.

I don't think we should expect cooperative agreements to be broken at all. That might be true if we were both static, monolithic organizations, but we aren't. We're a collection of individuals that may or may not remain on the side of the dimensional rift we're currently on.

Any townie teleporter that uses their actions to fuck over the other universe faces the very real possibility that they will be pulled over to the universe they just fucked over and have to live in their own mess. It seems that our best bet as individuals is to make sure that both towns do really well.

So for both towns, I think, self-interest will help us reach a cooperative solution, not hinder us. Whatever strategy we end up using, we should make sure it ends up being a net gain for both towns as a whole.

Teleporting scummy players to the other universe is a zero sum game, imo, that we should not be playing. A plan like Kairyuu's makes sense, I think, in that it gives both towns a slight advantage.

Vote raskol

You are basically repeating me, with better words. Seriously, the time you put in your first sentence could have been used to answer my question, and if you had read the thread, you would have noticed 3 players answered it by now. Further, hiding behind Kai is always easy. This was some useless strategy-talk-hiding. And I use that word because I don't want to say active lurking this early in the game.

There is really nothing I can say to defend myself from "Finding the strategy discussion irritating is scummy". I maintain that it is pointless to continue the strategy discussion.

While it is indeed not very usefull to find scum, since they can talk with it just as easily, it is important to think about the setup you are playing in. I hope we agree that it is important to find the best strategy for the town first, and then lynch?

I don't think you get what

I'm

saying, fish. I'm saying that, from the very beginning, it's in everyone's interests to make sure that both universes are really good places to be.

Lets state the obvious thing, please, making sure that it comes from

your

posts.

By post 147, Flareonage is seriously looking scummy, Pops is doing a great, though a little overaggressive job. I guess that is playstyle.

And far too many people are hiding behind Kairyuu. (now gayle and evilsnail)

And by post 153 pops is disappointing, again the lets kill the other side view on the game. Seriously, with the masons, 12-3 can be done. 4 mislynches! Lets not waste too much time on the mechanic and just hunt scum!

There are still a lot of players who I would like to tell their scumtells

And as a conclusion: Zoraster, you are seriously disappointing as a mod. Seriously, any strategy that comes up should have been thought about BEFORE the game was made. Changing rules during the game is not the way to go.

[evilsnail]

The fact that you chose me out of the four people that have posted since game start without voting is interesting---those being myself, mykonian, DGB, Ojanen.

Any particular reason for that?

Well, I felt like, in 109 (quoted below), you were sorta drumming up support for the Gayle wagon without committing to it. That can be a scum move. I mean, there were only like three votes on Gayle at the time, so there's no reason to withhold it.

There is really nothing I can say to defend myself from "Finding the strategy discussion irritating is scummy". I maintain that it is pointless to continue the strategy discussion.

You would prefer maybe random voting? Jokes about avatars?

Strategy discussion is necessary because what strategy we follow later, if any, will determine how likely it is that we'll reach our win conditions. For that reason, it's kinda important, you know?

In any case, you don't seem to be trying very hard to bring up something different to talk about.

@mykonian: I don't see how I'm hiding about kairyuu. I just think it's about time to pick a strategy and his latest one seemed to make sense.

Re my scum tells: It's been a long time since I played as scum, so I don't fully remember, but I definitely like busing my scumbuddies. That's fun. Other than that, I tend to be more cautious with my vote. When I'm town, I have very strong gut feelings about people and that's difficult to fake. So, if I'm using more intuition than sense, that's usually a sign that I'm town.

[evilsnail]

Btw, mykonian, what are

your

scum tells?

[DrippingGoofball]

Wut?

Someone is asking what my scumtells are (along with everyone else's?)

No way. Why should I tell scum what they should avoid doing?

[Rhinox]

back from V/LA.

/confirm

if I need to. I'll get caught up shortly.

[zorastermod]

And as a conclusion: Zoraster, you are seriously disappointing as a mod. Seriously, any strategy that comes up should have been thought about BEFORE the game was made. Changing rules during the game is not the way to go.

I haven't changed the rules to my knowledge with two exceptions: first, I changed the rules on order of actions right before the game started. Second, I technically changed the restriction of not being able to teleport or pull someone who was teleported or pulled the previous night to the LAST person teleported or pulled into the universe. The first was due to a breaking strategy that had to be fixed and was done so before the game was launched. The second because the first rule ignored the possibility that one town could teleport 4 people into the universe during the other town's day and lead to all 4 being unteleportable.

All of the other clarifications are not rule changes. Most are even explained or indicated at some other point in the rules or in the role PMs (e.g. clarification one on the order of teleports). Those that aren't were simply not considered beforehand, despite my every attempt to do so -- including, I should mention, getting comment on my game both in public (it has been repeatedly posted in both the Theme Test Market and Open Setup Discussion and in the the sign-up thread) as well as in private.

So I do apologize that I was not as clear as I should have been initially, and that disappoints me as well. But I have not attempted to change rules to address strategies discussed here. However, I have thought that flaws that come from some ambiguity in my rules should be addressed in a rule clarification.

[Fishythefish]

Aaaah! I didn't notice that if our teleporter is pulled, we don't get a teleporter that night. Is that new?

*Zoraster Comment: it was new as of just before the game, so if you had read all the rules when you signed up, it had changed after that.*

That goes down as my own stupid fault then

@Gayle: the strategy discussion has wound down, and people have reads and stuff like that. Any comments on the game, now your easy excuse for active lurking has gone?

[zorastermod]

As Infinis has picked up neither his role PM nor the prod I sent him:

Albert B. Rampage replaces Infinis

[Albert B. Rampage]

Oh my god I'm going to be prosecuted by the feminist group.

[Albert B. Rampage]

BOXXY!!!

[farside22]

Because acting antitown as towny to protect your scumplay is not done, and the way I know you, you also wouldn't lurk or do other scummy things to protect your scumplay. Then we get a series of scumtells that I know you would avoid if possible (jumping on a wagon with a "me too") and that you are often bussing seems to be a save thing to say as scum. Further, you keep it very general. I can't see someone who loves the game this much doing this as town. FoS Farside. But pluspoints for actually answering the question as first player.

Notice I said other games. IE people could read this later and use anything I do as scum and say here look what she said in this game and don't tell me people don't do that.
I do lurk you just never saw it. (not that I recall you seeing it) I definately have jumped on a bw as scum with a me too type attitude. I would point to the one game I'm thinking about but it's currently in progress but I was lynched as scum.
I point to a pretty indepth post on how to tell I'm scum and you want to say my answer is safe because scum bussing is commen?
Umm no offense but it's general because I really am an all over the place type player. I feel I did better before my absense as scum then now so maybe I'm just being hard on myself but I really don't think I currently play scum well.

DGB:
Wut?

Someone is asking what my scumtells are (along with everyone else's?)

No way. Why should I tell scum what they should avoid doing?

I don't read it that way at all. He is asking how you act as scum. Not everyone acts the same and people can use it as a reference instead of using the word meta argument.
I just hate it because I never like talking about my scum actions. Never. It's something I hold dear to my heart and don't want to share with the MS world (who do read games and look back on things to the nth degree) signs that I'm scum for later games.

[evilsnail]

Wut?

Someone is asking what my scumtells are (along with everyone else's?)

No way. Why should I tell scum what they should avoid doing?

This post feels... off. As farside22 points out, sharing scum tells is not anti-town. Even if it did help scum in some way, it also helps the town find scum.

FOS: DGB

[popsofctown]

BOXXY!!!

I have a friend in this thread.




Ganking the other town doesn't work without 100% support, so consider my idea (which was the other idea someone already had, i just didn't understand it when he said it >_<) totally withdrawn.

We'll do the alternate one, it looks fine.

Scumhunting starts now.


Cept i have class byees.

[Gayle]

I missed these first two

@Gayle: Why the sam hill do you think people would ignore RVS for a strategy discussion? I'll give you a hint, it's not because RVS is useful.

I happen to find RVS very useful. It gets the game started, it gives you questions to ask, votes and bandwagons to question, etc. With the strategy discussion you

might

find a basis on which to begin scum hunting (as is the case in universe 2), or you might finish the discussion and gain absolutely no insight as to who is scum (as is the case in this universe).

Why is RVS important? Isn't it better to have some communication between players and judge players on what they said and vote for them based on that then RVS?

The point of RVS is to start discussion, and bring out some things to actually start pursuing. A random vote leads to discussion leads to a serious vote. Whereas with this strategy discussion, when it ends you end up with a situation where you have nothing to go on.

While it is indeed not very usefull to find scum, since they can talk with it just as easily, it is important to think about the setup you are playing in. I hope we agree that it is important to find the best strategy for the town first, and then lynch?

I wasn't saying that we should have never discussed strategy, I was arguing that
1, we had already laid out the strategies
2, we had already laid out the flaws with each strategy
3, town's decision has no bearing on what the teleporter will do.

Now, I do realize that the strategy we have settled on wasn't proposed until sometime after I called for an end to the discussion.

By post 147, Flareonage is seriously looking scummy

Why is Flareonage looking scummy? I've had some games with him and this is nothing out of character for him or his fellow Onage Clan members.

@Gayle: the strategy discussion has wound down, and people have reads and stuff like that. Any comments on the game, now your easy excuse for active lurking has gone?

Ugh, I like how I've been accused of actively lurking twice when I haven't even had a chance to do so. I'm sorry I went to sleep last night and didn't participate in your strategy back and forth that lead to absolutely zero scum hunting.

What am I supposed comment on? The strategy discussion? 'Cause aside from a question from Myko and attacks on myself, that is all that has happened. I don't find farside22's or DGB's replies to Myko's question scummy at all. I would probably have given the same type of answer. I think pop's attack on Flareonage was silly, but that is probably because I've played games with Flareonage before.

</bitterness>

[DrippingGoofball]

As farside22 points out, sharing scum tells is not anti-town. Even if it did help scum in some way, it also helps the town find scum.

You'll find out my scumtells as I point them out. I point them out as they are being committed. I'm not laying down lists of scumtells. Ever.

[farside22]

farside22 wrote:

Why is RVS important? Isn't it better to have some communication between players and judge players on what they said and vote for them based on that then RVS?

The point of RVS is to start discussion, and bring out some things to actually start pursuing. A random vote leads to discussion leads to a serious vote. Whereas with this strategy discussion, when it ends you end up with a situation where you have nothing to go on.

What? How the planet of fark to you come to the conclusion that it lead no where?

I happen to find RVS very useful. It gets the game started, it gives you questions to ask, votes and bandwagons to question, etc. With the strategy discussion you might find a basis on which to begin scum hunting (as is the case in universe 2), or you might finish the discussion and gain absolutely no insight as to who is scum (as is the case in this universe).

Really? I happen to be using the info greatly to scum hunt I see others posting points on what others say (points to myko) and yet we havent' gone anywhere.

[Gayle]

What? How the planet of fark to you come to the conclusion that it lead no where?

Where has it lead in relation to scum hunting? I don't mean to say that it lead nowhere in deciding on a strategy that the teleporter may or may not even follow.

Really? I happen to be using the info greatly to scum hunt I see others posting points on what others say (points to myko) and yet we havent' gone anywhere.

'kay, if you say so. It doesn't seem like you are pursuing anything that came out of the strategy discussion to me.

To clarify, I'm not saying that the game as gone absolutely nowhere. I'm saying that the strategy discussion lead nowhere in relation to scumhunting.

[popsofctown]

And the eventual strategy we got came after both you and flareon called for discussion to cease.

Do you see how you might look bad right now?