Open 188 - Tweed Mafia - Over!

[Nikanor]

There's this thing called a pressure vote. I take it you think it's not a good reason for voting for someone?

I think pressure votes are good. However,

I don't think anything about my behavior or anything I said shows that I was looking to get MrSuave lynched.

vote MrSuave

Lowell's lynch is just as good if not better, but I mean, just look at what MrSuave posted on Day 2 and Day 3. It's ridiculous. We don't need Lowell at L-1 yet, in my opinion.

That's the entire post where you vote MrSuave. I don't see anything there indicating anything other than that you were 'looking to get MrSuave lynched.'

[KittyMo]

That's the entire post where you vote MrSuave. I don't see anything there indicating anything other than that you were 'looking to get MrSuave lynched.'

I think I was overreacted just a bit isoing him. My main purpose was to put pressure on him to say something.

[Starbuck]

What about this worries you, other than that it is a defense of a player that flipped scum? Or is that it?

Yes, that's it actually. I just wanted to note it.

Never answered this. Also, why did you mention how I'm never around when Suave lurked through Day 2 just as bad? Is there a reason you are ignoring her?

For the record, your deliberate misuse of pronouns bothers me. You kept calling Farside "him" when she has the female symbol under her name and you are doing the same thing by calling MrSuave "her". That's why the gender is there. Just a reminder.


I'm not ignoring Suave. If you noticed,in my first catch up post I said the following about HIM.

On MrSuave

He seems to just be adding a lot of fluff to the thread rather than actual scumhunting. I'm just trying to get through the thread right now, but

I'm going to be doing an iso on him later on.

He seems a bit to crazed about Nikanor though.

Right now, I've been just trying to get through reading and then I will be going back to do iso's as needed.

The above quote is also right above where I wrote about you. So why would you go out of your way to allude that I'm ignoring him?

[StrangerCoug]

Let's get on Lowell or KittyMo please, preferably Lowell. I would not like another No Lynch.

[Zachrulez]

Meh... there's actually a post from Lowell that's been eating at me because it doesn't really make sense if he's scum.

Vote: StrangerCoug

[Zachrulez]

Nevermind, I misread the roles. I thought it was two cops and two mafia, in which case the last mafia will just tailor him/herself every day. It's not, it's three. Carry on.

I'm having a hard time seeing Lowell scum after reading this again. (If Lowell is scum, he knows there's 3 scum regardless of how badly he misreads the roles or setup.)

[Lowell]

@nhammen- kitty tried to steer a lynch away from me while simultaneously saying how scummy I am. That's what makes me think she just didn't want to be caught on the "wrong" wagon.

@nhammen- I pointed out the inanity of the VT claim because those are the kinds of things that tend to derail towns and give scum a chance to have risk-free meta-arguments that last forever.

[Nikanor]

I think I was overreacted just a bit isoing him. My main purpose was to put pressure on him to say something.

My issue with it is that you didn't indicate that it was a pressure vote. In fact, when you voted, you made it sound very much like you wanted him lynched.

I'm having a hard time seeing Lowell scum after reading this again. (If Lowell is scum, he knows there's 3 scum regardless of how badly he misreads the roles or setup.)

Really, Zach?
Example of scum making a 'mistake.'
A mistake in that scum only had one veto, while Cojin said they had two.
Plus, what do you think the odds are of Lowell, a guy who has been around the site for longer than you have, Zach, forgetting how many scum are in a twelve person game? It just screams 'intentional mistake' when I look at it that way.

[Nikanor]

so you're saying that your vote was mearly a pressure vote? o___o

It's good to see you're back to active lurking.

[Zachrulez]

I'm having a hard time seeing Lowell scum after reading this again. (If Lowell is scum, he knows there's 3 scum regardless of how badly he misreads the roles or setup.)

Really, Zach?
Example of scum making a 'mistake.'
A mistake in that scum only had one veto, while Cojin said they had two.
Plus, what do you think the odds are of Lowell, a guy who has been around the site for longer than you have, Zach, forgetting how many scum are in a twelve person game? It just screams 'intentional mistake' when I look at it that way.

I thought about that. It's possible, but it requires a lot more thinking and advanced planning. I'm occam's razoring this one.

[Zachrulez]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=510

A player that was town in that game made a similar mistake. (And has been on the site longer than me.)

It's just just that, Kittymo's reaction to him and her actions toward the lynch raise even more red flags and doubts to me about Lowell's flip to the point where the main thing I can think of to justify the lynch in light of it all is the belief that we really need Lowell's flip to move forward with the game, and using that as a basis to lynch really feels like a cop out to me.

[Nikanor]

Okay, but that's forgetting that there is a roleblocker in F11 mountainous. Lowell forgot how many scum were in a twelve-person game. There's a big difference in magnitude between those two mistakes.
I think the fact that I've seen experienced players make that mistake more as scum than as town is factoring into my view on this as well. I've even been lynched for faking that mistake as scum before. Mind you, this was on #mafia where people are a lot more carefree with their lynches, but it still has an impact on the way I see the situation we're now in.

Also, if KittyMo is raising red flags for you, why are you not voting StrangerCoug? How is SC scummier than she?

[Nikanor]

why are you not voting StrangerCoug?

Why are you voting SC instead of Kitty, I mean.

[nhammen]

For the record, your deliberate misuse of pronouns bothers me. You kept calling Farside "him" when she has the female symbol under her name and you are doing the same thing by calling MrSuave "her". That's why the gender is there. Just a reminder.

Oops... And I always try to be good about that...

I'm not ignoring Suave. If you noticed,in my first catch up post I said the following about HIM.

On MrSuave

He seems to just be adding a lot of fluff to the thread rather than actual scumhunting. I'm just trying to get through the thread right now, but

I'm going to be doing an iso on him later on.

He seems a bit to crazed about Nikanor though.

Right now, I've been just trying to get through reading and then I will be going back to do iso's as needed.

The above quote is also right above where I wrote about you. So why would you go out of your way to allude that I'm ignoring him?

Yeah, but that was your Day 1 catchup post, and you never mentioned him in your Day 2 catchup post. I was just wondering why that was...

Let's get on Lowell or KittyMo please, preferably Lowell. I would not like another No Lynch.

You have barely been suspicious of kitty at all... Where did this come from? In fact, the only other time that you have mentioned kitty at all today is:

A quick KittyMo ISO gives me the impression that she hasn't attacked Lowell really heavily, if it doesn't confirm it. While I will entertain the possibility that she could be scum, I don't think she's scum with Lowell. Something about KittyMo bussing Lowell isn't ringing.

Well then, what is scumkitty's motivation for avoiding attacking townLowell? At that point, enough of the town was pursuing a Lowell lynch, that scum could get away with it without taking scumpoints. Why not do this?

Nevermind, I misread the roles. I thought it was two cops and two mafia, in which case the last mafia will just tailor him/herself every day. It's not, it's three. Carry on.

I'm having a hard time seeing Lowell scum after reading this again. (If Lowell is scum, he knows there's 3 scum regardless of how badly he misreads the roles or setup.)

He could be faking... and preview shows that nik made the same argument.

@nhammen- kitty tried to steer a lynch away from me while simultaneously saying how scummy I am. That's what makes me think she just didn't want to be caught on the "wrong" wagon.

Hey, I was just about to ask you to answer those questions. Preview saves the day! Although you still didn't answer the questions the way I would have liked, but oh well. I can't expect people to read my mind. So you think that scumkitty is not attacking you so as to gain town-cred. What response to her 584 other than "makes me think she knows I'm town" do you have? Such as a response to the argument she presented?

And on the note of kitty's 584,

And look at farside's interaction with ME and tell me she was not doing the exact thing you're accusing me of doing to you.

Ummm... the main thing I remember between farside and you was farside buddying to you and attacking players that attacked you on Day 1. So, how is this similar to the situation between you and Lowell?


ARG! people! I keep having to respond to more while writing this! OK. I'll post this now, and see if there is any interesting content to respond to.

[nhammen]

Hmmm... I'd like a response from Zach as well: why is your vote on SC?

[Zachrulez]

Okay, but that's forgetting that there is a roleblocker in F11 mountainous. Lowell forgot how many scum were in a twelve-person game. There's a big difference in magnitude between those two mistakes.
I think the fact that I've seen experienced players make that mistake more as scum than as town is factoring into my view on this as well. I've even been lynched for faking that mistake as scum before. Mind you, this was on #mafia where people are a lot more carefree with their lynches, but it still has an impact on the way I see the situation we're now in.

Also, if KittyMo is raising red flags for you, why are you not voting StrangerCoug? How is SC scummier than she?

Mostly it's a feeling that SC's Farside vote is more likely to be a bus.

Kittymo had time and oppurtunity to unvote. SC's vote looks more like an attempt to grab town cred to me.

[KittyMo]

Sick and won't be posting much if at all.

Too sick to go to school = too sick for mafia.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Confirm out of V/LA.

Meh... there's actually a post from Lowell that's been eating at me because it doesn't really make sense if he's scum.

Vote: StrangerCoug

Elaborate please.

Let's get on Lowell or KittyMo please, preferably Lowell. I would not like another No Lynch.

You have barely been suspicious of kitty at all... Where did this come from? In fact, the only other time that you have mentioned kitty at all today is:

A quick KittyMo ISO gives me the impression that she hasn't attacked Lowell really heavily, if it doesn't confirm it. While I will entertain the possibility that she could be scum, I don't think she's scum with Lowell. Something about KittyMo bussing Lowell isn't ringing.

Well then, what is scumkitty's motivation for avoiding attacking townLowell? At that point, enough of the town was pursuing a Lowell lynch, that scum could get away with it without taking scumpoints. Why not do this?

I think the answer is very simple—she could want us to think that someone other than Lowell-town is scum; therefore, she would be avoiding what she might perceive as an easy mislynch. I'm more confident in Lowell-scum than KittyMo-scum, however, therefore my stating my preference for which one.

[MrSuave]

so you're saying that your vote was mearly a pressure vote? o___o

It's good to see you're back to active lurking.

Sorry for having post secondary hw BS that is all squished together because profs want half the grades calculated before reading week >_> I still don't buy that everything was all just "pressure." that sounds like some cheap cop out to me.

[Starbuck]

Day 3 to my first analysis post

On Lowell

If she's scum I'm unilaterally declaring that I'm cleared as a possible scum-buddy.0

This post right before the Day 2 lynch scene bothers me.

farside, as a desperate scum, decided to claim cop, and ALSO IMPLICATE HER SCUMBUDDY by "clearing" him? Someone tell me why that makes sense.

WIFOM much?


Zach has a very good point here:

Nevermind, I misread the roles. I thought it was two cops and two mafia, in which case the last mafia will just tailor him/herself every day. It's not, it's three. Carry on.

Why do you seem to know for a fact whether or not the tailor is still alive?

Um, because farside was a goon?

You do realize that all the mafia flip that way right?

Why doesn't Lowell seem to realize this?

On KittyMo

vote MrSuave

Lowell's lynch is just as good if not better, but I mean, just look at what MrSuave posted on Day 2 and Day 3. It's ridiculous. We don't need Lowell at L-1 yet, in my opinion.

She votes MrSuave, but then she says Lowell's lynch is "just as good,

if not better

". This just feels like fencesitting to me.

And again, when she says

I'd rather lynch Lowell today too probably.

But she just keeps her vote on MrSuave.

She does lay out a great analysis on MrSuave in Post 542. All he's really done is post fluff.

MrSuave is clearly not looking for scum. I've never played with him before, so I don't really know his meta, but this is just horrid.

QFT. Is this what made him start posting substance?

Yeah they do.

If you bring up your iso, you've pretty much been all about MrSuave after you paid lip service to a Lowell lynch that has had a lot more interest.

All right. In the future I'll make sure to remember that cutting off discussion and pushing the same lynch everyone else is is a towntell.

Wow, misrepresentation.

What I took Zach as saying here is that you keep saying Lowell is scummy and his lynch is better, but your vote is on MrSuave. Thus paying "lip service to a Lowell lynch", but being "all about MrSuave".

Correct me if I'm wrong, Zach.

On MrSuave

He finally starts posting substance, yay! I'm feeling that MrSuave was really just a lazy townie.

MrSuave was also one of Farside's major targets, which is another reason to give pause to the idea of lynching him.

This is a good point as well.

On nhammen

Lowell flipping scum would practically confirm a few players as town.

I'm uncomfortable with you assuming this.

[Starbuck]

I don't think it's reasonable to say that I'm being "distracting" by getting a player that has posted next to no content to read up and give their thoughts on the game. I also don't think it's reasonable to call that a scummy action. I don't think anything about my behavior or anything I said shows that I was looking to get MrSuave lynched. Absolutely not - my purpose was to call him out for a ridiculous lack of content thus far. I don't understand what about that is "distracting." What meaningful discussion that was taking place today was I distracting from?

Pressure votes are pressure votes for a reason. Once you admit they are pressure votes, they become null and void.

That's why to me, it became distracting and thus wasted.

[Zachrulez]

My discussion with Nikanor regarding Lowell has got me thinking about my wavering on him. I think I may just be doubting the lynch because the answer just seems too easy. (Which is not really a valid reason to oppose it.)

I can't really excuse Lowell, he's been too scummy and lurked too much. The pace of this game is suffering as well due to a general lack of posting from multiple players.

Unvote: Vote: Lowell

(L-1)

I want a claim from Lowell.

[Nikanor]

Zach, what about the red flags coming from KittyMo that you were talking about in 635? That was a good point; good enough to make me waver on my opinion of Lowell. What happened to it?

[Zachrulez]

I had a lengthy discussion with Kittymo about it. It's the fact that she doesn't really seem very willing to support a Lowell lynch and is more interested in Suave. That whole thing just seems like a distraction.

[Zachrulez]

Her play in general also leaves some question marks. Particularly her early play.