Open 188 - Tweed Mafia - Over!

[Starbuck]

@Mod - The first post isn't updated at all. I'm not listed on the front page as a replacement. The latest deaths (if any) haven't been recorded. I don't even know what Day we are on.

I apologize all. I've tried to start reading and with the above as well as the site's constant errors, it's been hard trying to read. I'm barely past the 3rd page.

If anyone knows how I catch up, I try to do a wall-o-text per game day. It's been tough with the craziness work has brought me in the past week, as well as the site's errors. I have posted in other games, but it's games that I started from the beginning and I have no need to catch up on.

If someone can tell me the above information, or if the first post can be updated, it would be greatly appreciated.

[StrangerCoug]

@Mod - The first post isn't updated at all. I'm not listed on the front page as a replacement. The latest deaths (if any) haven't been recorded. I don't even know what Day we are on.

I apologize all. I've tried to start reading and with the above as well as the site's constant errors, it's been hard trying to read. I'm barely past the 3rd page.

If anyone knows how I catch up, I try to do a wall-o-text per game day. It's been tough with the craziness work has brought me in the past week, as well as the site's errors. I have posted in other games, but it's games that I started from the beginning and I have no need to catch up on.

If someone can tell me the above information, or if the first post can be updated, it would be greatly appreciated.

Jazzmyn, who was a cop, is dead along with who's there and it's Day 3.

[Lowell]

vote MrSuave

Lowell's lynch is just as good if not better, but I mean, just look at what MrSuave posted on Day 2 and Day 3. It's ridiculous. We don't need Lowell at L-1 yet, in my opinion.

unvote, vote kitty

. This has struck me the most since the new day opening. Kitty thinks I'm a good lynch, but wants to play it slow and vote someone else. She's setting up a lynch of me, but doesn't want to be the one responsible. If I die and flip town, she'll then be able to pursue scopion or nik, or one of the others more swayed by farside's dying words.

That she's basically attacking a strawman while keeping the option of my lynch open (possibly as the hammer) makes me think she's trying to massage her image.

[Zachrulez]

^ This is actually the first example I've seen of Lowell actually scum hunting.

Even more bizarre is that his points make sense.

[KittyMo]

vote MrSuave

Lowell's lynch is just as good if not better, but I mean, just look at what MrSuave posted on Day 2 and Day 3. It's ridiculous. We don't need Lowell at L-1 yet, in my opinion.

unvote, vote kitty

. This has struck me the most since the new day opening. Kitty thinks I'm a good lynch, but wants to play it slow and vote someone else. She's setting up a lynch of me, but doesn't want to be the one responsible. If I die and flip town, she'll then be able to pursue scopion or nik, or one of the others more swayed by farside's dying words.

That she's basically attacking a strawman while keeping the option of my lynch open (possibly as the hammer) makes me think she's trying to massage her image.

Um, no, dude. I'm just trying to get MrSuave to talk for the most part. I still want to lynch you, but I don't think hammering you right now would be very helpful because Starbuck needs to catch up, and we still have plenty of time for discussion. I don't believe that I would be "escaping responsibility for your lynch" considering I've been pushing your lynch as much as pretty much everyone on your wagon.

I also find it interesting that you seem to be randomly pushing OMGUS votes and hoping one of them gets a wagon behind it.

What do you mean by "massaging my image"? What part of my attacks on MrSuave are strawmanning? Why did you change your votes from Zachrulez (who you seemed pretty d*mn sure was scum) and XScorpion?

[KittyMo]

Even more bizarre is that his points make sense.

No, they don't.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah they do.

If you bring up your iso, you've pretty much been all about MrSuave after you paid lip service to a Lowell lynch that has had a lot more interest.

[Lowell]

@kitty- when I consider the scummiest actions the bandwagon on me after farside's death, then unfortunately OMGUS is what I'm left with.

The more I look at it, the less scorpion or zach really make sense as scum. Clearly farside was trying to set this up after her death, and I doubt the scum would so eagerly jump on this wagon. They'd lose whatever cred they had the following day.

[MrSuave]

Well okay, I sign up to play, but I find it harder to play town than scum. And it's actually pretty slow if you're just VT. xD I think I pay more attention to smaller games, or to games where I'm an improtant roll, not just scum fodder. But how can you say that Jazz only got killed because of her protown-ness. I think she was actually on to something. And I didn't ignore Lowell, he's still on my list. But he already has enough people who suspect him to actually pursue, because everything I might say has probably already been said. You and Zach though, at least one of you are scum. And I have a feeling like it's you miss kitty. I hold on to my vote, because I don't just throw it around.

[KittyMo]

Yeah they do.

If you bring up your iso, you've pretty much been all about MrSuave after you paid lip service to a Lowell lynch that has had a lot more interest.

All right. In the future I'll make sure to remember that cutting off discussion and pushing the same lynch everyone else is is a towntell.

Also, looking back about 10 pages, I was the first one to suggest to MrSuave that he talk about people other than Nikanor. This is not something I invented starting today. I just noticed that he hadn't caught up after 20+ days of saying he would to me.

@kitty- when I consider the scummiest actions the bandwagon on me after farside's death, then unfortunately OMGUS is what I'm left with.

The more I look at it, the less scorpion or zach really make sense as scum. Clearly farside was trying to set this up after her death, and I doubt the scum would so eagerly jump on this wagon. They'd lose whatever cred they had the following day.

I think you give yourself too much credit. Getting you lynched is something scum could easily get away with without losing any "cred" because pretty much everyone still alive thinks you should be lynched. I don't really see how staying off the wagon gives me more "credit."

And look at farside's interaction with ME and tell me she was not doing the exact thing you're accusing me of doing to you.

[KittyMo]

discussion and pushing the same lynch everyone else is is a towntell.

Towntell as in something that pro-town people should do and do do. That came out a bit weird.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah they do.

If you bring up your iso, you've pretty much been all about MrSuave after you paid lip service to a Lowell lynch that has had a lot more interest.

All right. In the future I'll make sure to remember that cutting off discussion and pushing the same lynch everyone else is is a towntell.

Which is why you paid lip service to Lowell being the best lynch while voting for Suave?

That doesn't really make sense.

[KittyMo]

Yeah they do.

If you bring up your iso, you've pretty much been all about MrSuave after you paid lip service to a Lowell lynch that has had a lot more interest.

All right. In the future I'll make sure to remember that cutting off discussion and pushing the same lynch everyone else is is a towntell.

Which is why you paid lip service to Lowell being the best lynch while voting for Suave?

That doesn't really make sense.

I was being sarcastic.

[Zachrulez]

I think you give yourself too much credit. Getting you lynched is something scum could easily get away with without losing any "cred" because pretty much everyone still alive thinks you should be lynched. I don't really see how staying off the wagon gives me more "credit."

And look at farside's interaction with ME and tell me she was not doing the exact thing you're accusing me of doing to you.

I don't drink wine...

[StrangerCoug]

A quick KittyMo ISO gives me the impression that she hasn't attacked Lowell really heavily, if it doesn't confirm it. While I will entertain the possibility that she could be scum, I don't think she's scum with Lowell. Something about KittyMo bussing Lowell isn't ringing.

[Nikanor]

Nikanor - prod DTMaster with your fists

I tried, but I didn't see him today.

And it's actually pretty slow if you're just VT. xD

Softclaim noted.

MrSuave, 'throwing your vote around' helps the town get a read on you. I don't know why you'd hesitate to vote someone you think is scum if you were town. I think the real reason for why you're not voting Kitty is because you don't want to seem like you're hopping on the wagon that Lowell just started, which you're doing anyway by saying she's scummy, by the way. Just because you're not voting her doesn't mean you're not jumping on the bandwagon.

[KittyMo]

MrSuave, 'throwing your vote around' helps the town get a read on you. I don't know why you'd hesitate to vote someone you think is scum if you were town. I think the real reason for why you're not voting Kitty is because you don't want to seem like you're hopping on the wagon that Lowell just started, which you're doing anyway by saying she's scummy, by the way. Just because you're not voting her doesn't mean you're not jumping on the bandwagon.

Well, technically MrSuave started calling me scummy before Lowell did...

[Lowell]

Suave's "softclaim" doesn't mean anything to me. VT is the default, we're all implicity claiming VT by not claiming otherwise. I actually find 583 otherwise townish, though.

584 is as off has kitty's other posts. The tone of her response to me makes me think she

knows

I'm town.

[MrSuave]

I was on Kitty's case before Lowell, like Kitty pointed out. And right now I'm still undecided on who of the top two is my top. I will definitly throw down a vote on one of them for sure. I'm not gonna like, right now I'm 60/40 split, Kitty is the 60. I'll probably vote by tomorrow afternoon. And Nik you're still on mah list. btw, one of my better assets is that most people have no read on me because, like you have said in the past, I play the VI =D. This allows me to observe more than anything, but it's high risk, but if I'm around late game, I can be more of an asset =p. Think Fire Emblem

[Starbuck]

Day 1

Again,

@Mod - The first post isn't updated at all. I'm not listed on the front page as a replacement. The latest deaths haven't been recorded. Also, no where in an obvious area is the Day that we are currently on (such as the thread title or the first post).

Heads up, I skimmed through the theorizing and discussion that should be in the Mafia Discussion part of the forums. I've also skipped over everything that farside had to say since I know it came from scum.

On my predecessor, Locke Lamora

I'm not a fan of his casual entrance into the game at Post 63. I've only played with Locke once or twice, so I don't know if that's a normal thing for him or not. Although, he did ask questions and seemed like he was trying to contribute, but he only has 5 total posts and 4 are game related.

I do agree with his case on Lowell. I feel the same way about him currently.

On KittyMo

I've only played in one prior game with KittyMo, and I don't remember her being this lurky. Is this normal for her?

She says wants to be in a game with no RVS, and will vote the next person to random vote. Now, I don't think the suggestion is scummy, but her execution of said plan was just a very poor display.

And Nikanor makes an excellent point with:

Except that your reasoning for placing a vote will rely on the RVS's existence.

If she had posted her questions along with her statement of not wanting an RVS, I could definitely see her positively trying to move away from RVS. Without including those questions in her initial post, it reflects rather negatively imho.

Locke Lamora: If I were to self-vote right now, what would your reaction be?

Answering this since it was based towards my role spot.

It would depend on your actions surrounding the self-vote really. I am one of those firm believers that self-voting is a null tell, rather than a scum tell. Your actions surrounding the self vote would them be questioned by me, rather than that actual self vote.


She answers her questions in Post 27, but I do not feel that many of them are genuine.

For example...

* Who do you want to be lynched first in this game, and why?
Hmmm. Hard question to answer, since only about half of us are here, but I’d choose Lowell, because I don’t like votes without reasoning on page 1 unless they’re early bandwagoning.

Most votes on Page 1 aren't for a reason. So why do you support early bandwagoning (which a good chunk of people find to be scummy) over people random voting?

I don't think you've even stated why you don't like the Random Voting Stage.

* Is it scummy to suggest skipping the RVS?
No. I don’t really like the RVS; it doesn’t seem all that useful.

* If I were to self-vote right now, what would your reaction be?
Well, there’s a reason that I’m not self-voting right now; I don’t see how it would help the town.

Since both of these questions are originally intended to be about your actions and/or possible future actions, it's just very odd in context. You were the one who suggested skipping RVS, and you would be the one to self-vote.

Now you've stated why you don't like RVS, so why isn't it useful?

See, my thought when I see a question like that is that of a scum player who wants to know what NOT TO DO in a mafia game, a scum player who might be paticularly worried about being caught by a specific player. (You'd have to know my history with Kittymo to fully understand what I'm getting at.)

I pretty much know what you find scummy, Zach, so if that was the reason I was asking, I would ask someone else that question, like someone very experienced (you know about my irrational fear of them, especially when I play as scum xD), or ask Nikanor, because at least on irc, he always seems to catch me as scum, and I am not entirely sure why. But the main point of the question survey was to ask questions relevant to the game at hand, which is why I didn't ask things like "What's your favorite power role: cop, doctor, or vig?" or random game theory that doesn't apply here.

This just feels WIFOM-ish to me, with a bit of backpedaling. If you know what Zach finds scummy, you should have directed another question towards him. But still even if you asked someone else this question, I would find it rather odd as well.

Since I apparently fail so much, what better plan would you like to grace us with?

Unvote: yabbaguy
Vote: KittyMo

If one plan for generating discussion fails, try another yourself. Don't ask people to generate discussion for you.

QFT

I'm also not a fan of Kitty's AtE in that quote.

You're asking me to figure out what you should do next for you? o.O

Would you like to explain why you don't want to give any suggestions of what is best for town?

Did you simply start the RQS just to generate discussion, and let the rest of town decide what to do with the results?

Did you ever answer these questions?

If people did continue to RV, I, as I did, would vote the first person to random vote. If no one did RV, I would have chosen to vote for a different reason. Why was this not obvious?

You've been on this site long enough to know that almost 98% of games start with some kind of RVS. So your theorizing about "if no one did RV" doesn't fly with me at all.

You are trying to give yourself an out where there isn't one.

Basically, I want you to explain which of my questions you think someone who is not town would ask. Since you have yet to do that; you've just said that some guy in a game you played with a while back asked scummy questions.

Why are you trying to lead into a discussion that will be a complete distraction from the game?

You seriously have no reason whatsoever to believe I'm town? That's pretty sad.

AtE much?

Until you bring up a point that isn't "I think this is scummy because I think it's scummy and you can't change what I think is scummy," I'm not going to respond to your case anymore because it's a waste of the small amount of time we have before reaching the deadline.

This is what mafia is though. He has brought up many good points (at this point in the game) against you. All you have brought, as far as I can see, in defense is quite a bit of AtE and misrepresentation.

So why are you jumping all over X for his vote on you, rather than anyone else for their votes on you?

Here's the bottom half of my scumlist. (I tried to order it as best I could, but I keep wanting to reorder it...meh):

MrSuave
Zachrulez
StrangerCoug
XScorpion
Lowell
SCUM

So those closer to the bottom are people you are more suspicious of?

Yup.

Cut off the top half of the list since it's so close to deadline. I'm not really interested in giving scum a who-to-NK list.

But you just did. /sigh

On Zachrulez

See, my thought when I see a question like that is that of a scum player who wants to know what NOT TO DO in a mafia game, a scum player who might be paticularly worried about being caught by a specific player. (You'd have to know my history with Kittymo to fully understand what I'm getting at.)

QFT

On Lowell

unvote, vote zach

. 39 and 41, taken together, rub me the wrong way. 39 is meta and 41 is defensive and meta.

How so?

I'd like to see some interest in a zach wagon if folks aren't doing anything other than telling jokes.

Why a Zach wagon?

Is it your position that people who make meta arguments are scummy then?

Yes, basically. If that's pretty much all they do. It's my opinion that being meta is a good way to appear active while not really ruffling any feathers. This is what I see you doing, even in the way you phrased this question.

Where has he done this? Why haven't you provided examples to back up your accusation?

because I only have one vote. Zach strikes me as the bigger offender. suave is just plain lurky.

And yet, you still haven't provided a case, only weak accusations without any backup.

unvote, vote MrSuave.

Bandwagon. I'll give zach credit for showing up at least. Suave has an attitude on the rare occasions he does participate.

This is a rather opportunistic switch.

Or we could come to a consensus and lynch zach.

Still awaiting a case.

Not to mention at the time of this post you are voting for MrSuave and not Zach.

Lowell is reminding me a lot of a game I played in with him as scum. I believe it's Mini 795, but I can't bring up right now since the search function doesn't seem to be working on the forums currently.

On Nikanor

Having an abnormal amount of confidence is a scumtell, farside.

QFT

On XScorpion

Btw, it needs to be said, I like you more when you are scumhunting. You bring valuable info to the table.

I had no school today, so I was waiting around all day for your game to start.

Well, Zach, I was planning on providing another method of discussion, but I had to leave for dance class soon, and didn't have time to come up with one.

You were waiting around all day...but didn't have enough time? What's up with that?

Now I'm one of the biggest advocates about people's real lives because I know mine can get hectic as all hell, it's a WIFOM discussion. We won't know if the game started like 3 hrs prior to her class or 15 minutes prior. I think that this argument is faulty. She even said she had to leave for dance class, which you MIRACULOUSLY left out when you accused her here.

I have found her actions in game are scummy, but I don't think that this is. She came back as soon as she could. Now if she had just waited to make her first post and included her whole plan and her questions all into one post, I think that wouldn't have made her look as a bad. I just don't think you should be holding her commitments within her life against her.


I do agree with other points in your case though, such as

...which is why I didn't ask things like "What's your favorite power role: cop, doctor, or vig?"...

I am suspicious about someone being the first in the thread to mention power roles, even in this context.

& you hit it on the nose here:

The only reason it promoted discussion is because people saw her as suspicious for trying to discourage one of the most common ways to begin discussion.

Which of my questions in particular think are information about town for the scum to use? How would they be more helpful to scum than town?

I don't believe it is very productive to speculate on what scum might or might not say to get information about town.

This.


I do find it odd that X suddenly drops his case and attack on KittyMo and switches to Lowell. I have found Lowell scummy as I read, but it seems like too weird of a switch. I also don't see where a connection is between Lowell and Kitty.

He asks why his "insanely anti-town behavior hasn't warranted a vote". Me, personally, reading at the point I am, I really didn't find XScorpion as anti-town. So I'm wondering why he would go out of his way to point out this behavior or that he's purposely acting in this fashion.

As town, I've found that most lynches on me have actually been lead by scum...go figure.

Welcome to my world.

On MrSuave

He seems to just be adding a lot of fluff to the thread rather than actual scumhunting. I'm just trying to get through the thread right now, but I'm going to be doing an iso on him later on.

He seems a bit to crazed about Nikanor though.

On nhammen

Jumps in the game and automatically names Zach, X and MrSuave as scummiest.

Why? Do you have any cases on them?

At this point nhammen is still very quiet.

[MrSuave]

haha, that was day 1.

[Starbuck]

haha, that was day 1.

Hence the title of my post....

[KittyMo]

Hi Starbuck.

There was a segment during Day 2 where I was a bit lurky, but for the rest of the game I think I have an above average posting amount...

Most votes on Page 1 aren't for a reason. So why do you support early bandwagoning (which a good chunk of people find to be scummy) over people random voting?

Early bandwagonning usually provides information. Voting because someone else's avatar reminds you of blueberry pie is not quite as helpful.

I don't think you've even stated why you don't like the Random Voting Stage.

I don't like it all that much just because it seems overdone and not very helpful. Actually, the last game I played with Locke Lamora started with questions, and I think that generally made the game more scumhunting-based toward the beginning of the game rather than joking around. If I recall correctly, your scumbuddy bussed you hard day 1. I replaced in later. The town won in a 9 player game with only 1 power role (a tracker) and 1 mislynch.

Now you've stated why you don't like RVS, so why isn't it useful?

I think it generally sets up Day 1 for having a lot of kidding around and wasting time. There's a reason that scum have a really low chance of being lynched Day 1, and I think it has something to do with the fact that for the first half or 2/3 of day 1 in many games people are like "lalala let's talk about random crap" and then when the deadline starts getting close people are basically lynching randomly because there's so little actual information available.

QFT

I'm also not a fan of Kitty's AtE in that quote.

I'm an emotional person, okay? I think I've been accused of appealing to emotion 10+ times in this game, and I guess it's just because I'm naturally a whiny person. It has little to do with my alignment.

You've been on this site long enough to know that almost 98% of games start with some kind of RVS. So your theorizing about "if no one did RV" doesn't fly with me at all.

You are trying to give yourself an out where there isn't one.

...huh?

Why are you trying to lead into a discussion that will be a complete distraction from the game?

I disagree that it was a distraction. XScorpion kept repeating the fact that the questions I was asking were scummy questions without saying which ones and what about them in particular was scummy.

So why are you jumping all over X for his vote on you, rather than anyone else for their votes on you?

How does what I said there have anything to do with "jumping all over him" whatsoever?

[Starbuck]

Day 2

Tons of back and forth between Farside and Jazz & Farside and Zach, and most of the subject centers around Farside. I skimmed quite a bit, just a heads up.

On StrangerCoug

Wouldn't it be better to think of the possible motives for yabbaguy's death first?

This is a strange question for me coming from StrangerCoug because he's not one to speculate about NKs, and I just wanted to note it because through Day 1 reading because it's not a typical action for him and I've gotten a pro-town read off him. It just doesn't mesh.

On XScorpion

I tend to find that night-kill speculation just leads to WIFOM and nothing useful for town. If you want to discuss it, go ahead, but I'm still gonna put my vote back where it was. As for yabbaguy, I'm convinced that his death was as simple as him being seen by scum as the most pro-town player.

I'm in definite agreement about the WIFOM about the NK issue.

But I do have a question for you, Kitty left a pretty blatant list at the end of the day that yabba was not on. Do you think this implicates her at all?

On Lowell

At this point, Lowell has been straight on tunneling and pushing for a Zach lynch for two days.

Any chance we should do some sort of mass copclaim situation? Can we use two cops to our advantage here or what?

Why would you even ask this?

You guys are idiots.

I guess insulting every other player is a good way to get your point across.

vote zach.

This guy is unbearable and obvious.

You still haven't given any reason why.

There are a lot of twitchy players out there and I don't like it.

Who?

On KittyMo

I'm the kind of girl that makes the long, pretty, well-thought out cases as scum because I don't actually have to figure out who the scum are.

Umm....is it just me? Or does this feel like a slip?

Jazzmyn makes quite a few good points about Kitty, such as:

In 242, shortly before deadline, she made extremely weak cases on a few players: top scum suspect Lowell because of "bad vibes"; XS for "being a hypocrite" and "tunneling horribly"; SC "just a gut feeling; Zach "because if he's scum he wants her dead asap"; and MrS because of his preoccupation with Nik and because she can’t read him. None of those are legitimate cases.

Jazzmyn calls her out on her "scum would never do that" comment:

Just based on personal experience, I very, very rarely see scum put themselves in the spotlight early in the game. I remember my first game as scum, and on Day 1 I was absolutely terrified of being attacked early on, and definitely focused more on acting protown than pretending to scumhunt and such things. You can call it WIFOM if you want, but that's my experience.

It is WIFOM because the reality is that scum do put themselves in the spotlight, precisely because it's convenient for them to say, "Scum would never do that"... etc., etc., ad infinitum. That's why it's WIFOM.

I don't understand how Kitty doesn't see the WIFOM here.


Kitty also barely mentions Farside and then just hops on her bandwagon in Post 426 with nothing more than the following as her reasoning:

I'm really not excited by farside's deflection of me noting her sudden change of opinion on me a couple pages back, and her constant bringing up meta over the course of the game even though she supposedly doesn't believe in meta is ridiculous.

Meh. I'm gonna go ahead and

unvote; vote: farside22.

It's a very opportunistic and distancing move to me.


It also bothers me that after Farside claims, Kitty is more concerned about Lowell's reaction than the actual situation going on with Farside. Distancing much?

Well she clears me so I'm game. I'll believe it.

Lowell - Please tell me how this post could come from anyone except scum who has been tailored. I seriously cannot think of any other perspective.

This, especially with her generous use of WIFOM all game, strikes me as odd.

[Starbuck]

This is also a part of Day 2, I just missed it when I copied and pasted from Notepad...

On nhammen

Wow, this guy is barely ever around.

But his defense of Farside worries me...

So, about farside: I agree that he has been somewhat scummy, but I don't agree with some of the arguments presented here. I have seen too many quickhammers recently to believe that claiming at L-1 is scummy in itself. I can see some of his play as Cop. As for the rest of his play, I'm going to ISO him, post my conclusions, and then get some sleep. Maybe I should start coming to MS in the mornings instead of right before bed...