Mafia 103 - Ktown Mafia (Game Over)

[don_johnson]

i wish i was better spoken as i think i have scum nailed in sir chris. i need to reread this bit on kirbyoshi as it seems that the argument has taken on a new angle which i don't quite understand. overdefensiveness at L-1 is a town tell to me, L-4 not so much...

[cruelty]

Then you are wrong if you disagree. I can argue this for hours on end, but I will spare you. Purely objective tells are poor though.

Right, because you're infallible. Fuck outta here with that.

Having said my piece, I'll back down. I don't want to get involved in a theory argument. I will say though, that my reads on defensiveness are generally gut-reads as opposed to anything the player in question says. If I think their defensiveness is scummy, it's not usually for a reason I can really articulate. So I know what you're saying, I just find defensiveness at the very least worth looking into.

Moving on.


@Chris, can you please lay out your case against Kirbyoshi concisely and clearly? The reason I ask is that your posts against him have been filled with rage and anger (exaggerating obviously) and I'd just like a list of exactly what is scummy about him.

@Kirbyoshi, same applies to you. You haven't really built a case against Chris, you've just agreed with what other people said. Lay out it, point by point.

Basically what I want is similar to my points against heilo in my 988.


@CK you gotta answer my questions. Post 989, thanks.

@mike you're not helping anyone, more content please.

@Heilo where did you get to, you got some serious ground to make up m'man.

[Faraday]

Vote Heliograph

Re-read Katniss. I in my initial post said I thought she was scummy but seemed earnest, I think I was giving too much weight to the fact she/he was new to the game. She was very hesitant to ruffle any feathers it seemed and overly cautious about being perceived as scummy. Reluctance to vote is probably a slight scum tell in my book too.

We then have cades. Cades lurked. Look @ Killers Mafia 2 where cades was town and was well able to provide content when needed. Not sure how

good

said content is but that's beside the point.

Helio has continued along the same lolol sort of path with very little posting.

I'm pretty much going through every alive player and gonna see who I like and dislike I think.

[Kdub]

Vote Count

CrueKnight (1)

- kunkstar7

Furry (0)

-

cruelty (0)

-

Sir Chris (2)

- don_johnson, Kirbyoshi

kunkstar7 (1)

- mikeburnfire

Faraday (0)

-

don_johnson (0)

-

Kirbyoshi (2)

- Sir Chris, Furry

mikeburnfire (0)

-

Heilograph (2)

- cruelty, Faraday

No Lynch (0)

-

Not Voting (2)

- CrueKnight, Heilograph

10 players alive, 6 votes needed to lynch.

Deadline is January 22, ~10:00 pm MST

Deadline is ~72 hours away.

[Sir Chris]

My case on Kirbyoshi:

1. His first contributing post of the game is not him contributing. He points out that my statement is WIFOM, which I had already conceded, and then says everything against me makes "perfect sense." I believe the term active lurking was brought up, and I believe this post is an example of it. It appears to contribute to the discussion, but in fact it has no value at all. He did three things in that post: Agree with everything against me without putting it into his own words, thoughts, or giving reasoning as to why it looked good; he then proceeds to call a statement WIFOM when I had already stated that I was aware it was WIFOM and was merely posting it to give my thoughts not a defense of myself (which he seems to try to imply I was doing in that very same post) and lastly he voted me, and given the thin support for his vote of me I thought it was a badly placed vote with no actual reasoning of his own behind it.

2. I spoke about him having too much confidence in his words. Allow me to explain what I mean clearly. Take for example a man who is trying to pick a blue marble out of a bag of ten marbles. Five minutes prior he was allowed to get a feel for all of the marbles and thinks he knows the feel of the blue marble, but it was a very similar feel to the other, red marbles. He grasps the marble in his hand, and he is reasonably confident it is blue, but is nervous about being wrong. Now, we have a second man, who can see through the bag and knows which is blue and which is red. However, he is greedy, and wishes to bet a smaller amount on getting red ones first. So he walks up and appears very confident, saying "I will get a blue marble for sure! I know it!" and then he bets, and gets a red marble, and he goes "damn, well let's try again!" with the same fervor. It is natural, in my experience, for town to be nervous when they are lynching people. We have to be, otherwise we aren't being paranoid enough and we'll miss something. Kirbyoshi's posting mannerisms do not speak of a person who is at all worried about my alignment. Scum has no reason to care that I am town, they just want me lynched. As I said in a previous post, it is a classic scum mistake to try to appear too confident in their lynch targets and forget that at the end of the day, town will almost always have lingering doubts.

Those two huge factors are enough for me to believe that Kirbyoshi is scum.

Oh, and also the whole over-defensive argument and acting as if there needs to be a different play style for -1 or -2 vs lesser situations. I am not sure if that is a pure scum tell or if that is just how he believes it should be regardless of alignment, but it is bad.

[Furry]

@SC - You should replace 'being sure about a vote' with his voting history. It looks stronger since the assuredness can easily come from any alignment.

You can even start building on what I had yesterday on torque/dana

Torque entire suspicions for the game can be summed up as
-CK for using smilies (he actually voted him seriously pushing him to L-2 for this)
-CK for possibly softclaiming a masonish role

yeah thats it. He never touched on Haylen, he never touched on anyone. The times he did make moves, it was on someone who I not only have down as town, but also for reasons that are up there amungst the worst that I have ever seen someone seriously push a lynch over.

Dana comes in with new suspects but continues the trend of reasoning that really is in the pits. Votes here are
-wicked for being eager
-CK for being suspected by SB
**side note, when pressured by wicked he just says 'im not voting you, doesnt matter'. Add dodging of reasoning to the list of reasons to be lynching him
-cruel and me appear on his list next for no reason I can find whatsoever
-cades for lurking (when he didnt appear in his top three two days earlier)
**when being pressured again for the cades vote he suddenly seems really unsure of himself being there

[Faraday]

A lot of things sir chris seems to find scummy are things I consider null. I mean being sure of your vote is no way an alignment tell. Look at Xyl/Rofl they seem to be always sure, and even in general being overconfident in a vote is certainly not a scum tell.

I like Furry's piece on Torque a bit better, though I do tend to think excessive smiley usage can be a scum tell in certain situations (:P). I think his lack of comment on Haylen is a big thing though.

[Sir Chris]

There is a difference between being confident and not caring enough to look deeper imo.

[CrueKnight]

lol. Sir Chris is on firee! :p

And what the heck is up with posts 950 - 964?

As for the over-defensive Sir Chris, I would normally look at that as scummy. But as said before, the mafia really has nothing to lose. They're all living. They hold 3+ votes.
The mafia would normally act cool in this situation.

As for my thoughts... I'm still trying to decide between DJ and Sir Chris.
DJ because I didn't really feel comfortable with SolemnJ. (Have to re-read though)
Sir Chris because cruelty made a few pointers on him that may be valid. (post 948)

As for Heilograph, I don't think he's lynchable yet, but he's asking for it if the only thing he's going to give is a choice on a bandwagon. That goes for Yoshi-whats-hisname too.

Yes the mafia would act cool. Just like your post.

You think DJ might be scum because you feel uncomfortable with him? And what about Sir Chris's thoughts on cruelty? Or are you just siding with cruelty without regard to the other side? You don't care who gets lynched seems like to me.

Vote: crueknight

Yes, those two are the ones I'm stuck at deciding. I have cruelty in mind as well. Figuring out Sir Chris, I think would be my first step though.

Sir Chris' argument about cruelty isn't as strong an argument, I think, to take that first step.

Why those two?

Why not me? Given that someone [dj?] brought up the fact that both chris and I were on both mislynch wagons, why do you not find me suspicious?

Why do you find chris to be suspicious because of something I said? Is that the only reason? Has he said anything that set off alarm bells for you, or are you entirely basing your suspicion on things I've said?

I find most of us were on the mislynch wagons. Reading back, I find Sir Chris to be pretty townie actually.

I must admit that most of my suspicious of Sir Chris was based off your post. But while reading back, there were so many posts in the DJ-Chris debate that I just had to pick a side. That's why I want to choose between them.

After scanning back to old stuff and studying voting patterns I find solemnJ/DJ and you, cruelty, to be quite off-town. You tend to vote off the worst choice of players with little reasoning.

As for DJ, he is beginning to act like his predecessor. Lurking a bit now?

As for the Yoshi guy, besides being inactive at times, I don't see how him or his predecessors were any bit scummy.

[Sir Chris]

Why were none of his actions thus far not ANY scummy at all? Explain yourself better.

[Kirbyoshi]

Ok, so I know this isn't what Furry asked for, but I feel it needs to be done nonetheless.

Scumlist:
Sir Chris--Contrary to popular belief, I am NOT 100% sure on him. More like 65-70%, but he's the best lead I have to go on atm.

Furry--More a hunch than anything else, but if Chris is scum, Furry probably is too.

Kunk--Don't know if you could really call it active lurking, but it seems to me he just throws things out there and then sits back. Not much scumhunting really.

Mike--Almost the same as Kunk, but not quite as severe.

Heilo--I have to admit, when I read the game, I only considered toDay, because of all the replacements, not only from toDay, but from pretty much every Day. My mild suspicion of Heilo comes from what other people have said about him not providing enough content.

Crue--New(er) player. If it comes to the surface that he was a scumhunting god (with a little g), he will move up.

Dj--I hope he finishes his reconsideration soon, I wanna hear what he has to say.

Cruelty--Seems to get the dirt on everyone. Keep up the good work.

Faraday--The towniest of them all. Articulate, and hits the nail on the head almost every time.

[mikeburnfire]

^Active lurking? Supongo. I'll admit that I'm not really scumhunting. I'm waiting for that chord to strike that really gets me into the game, but nothing has happened yet. And there aren't any bandwagons to investigate, no players that stand out distinctly, and no role-related information that can move this game forward. 10 players alive with 3-4 scum makes this seem like a lost cause.

So I'm sticking with my kunk vote. If he turns up scum then I'll probably get tuned in with this game. If not then, whatever. The main reason that I like Sir Chris isn't because I think he's town. Not entirely, anyway. I feel like he's really into this game, and if he dies then this game will fissile out quickly.

Even though I don't care for this game at the moment, I don't want to replace out because that would just stall this game even more than its already lethargic pace, and I know that I could get into it if just

something interesting

would happen.

[Furry]

I like Furry's piece on Torque a bit better,...I think his lack of comment on Haylen is a big thing though.

Cool.

Want to wagon him?

[Kirbyoshi]

@Furry: ???

[Furry]

@Furry: ???

I am trying to see if he is into wagoning you. In retrospect it wasnt worded too clearly

[Faraday]

I like Furry's piece on Torque a bit better,...I think his lack of comment on Haylen is a big thing though.

Cool.

Want to wagon him?

Nah, I like my heliograph vote better at the moment by a little bit.

We've 2 days till deadline. ANYONE NOT VOTING NEEDS TO PUT A VOTE DOWN. Mike and Kunkstar's vote seem to be doing very little too, so I'd suggest they switch to one of the 2-man wagons at least, unless they strongly oppose them.

[Sir Chris]

I suggest the wagon that actually has a good case for it, see: Kirbyoshi.

[CrueKnight]

I suggest the wagon that actually has a good case for it, see: Kirbyoshi.

If i get it right, your lynching him because of inactivity?

Can you wrap it up in a nutshell for me please?

[don_johnson]

Lurking a bit now?

no. any other questions?

[Sir Chris]

I suggest the wagon that actually has a good case for it, see: Kirbyoshi.

If i get it right, your lynching him because of inactivity?

Can you wrap it up in a nutshell for me please?

Amazingly you completely missed my case. In fact when he was just an inactive I didn't want to lynch him. Also, read post 1004 for a nutshell.

[kunkstar7]

I suggest the wagon that actually has a good case for it, see: Kirbyoshi.

Suppart.

unvote; Vote: Kirbyoshi.

If we are picking between wagons at this point...I'm going for Kirbyoshi. I don't like the wagon on Sir Chris, he's been a solid player as I have stated.

With both of the players on Kirbyoshi's wagon being town reads for me and a logical case being presented against him, by a protown player, he's the best choice.

As far as I can see the only case on Heilo is his slot's general horrible posting, also said of my slot.

[Furry]

Around 30 hours to deadline.

Lets do something

[Kirbyoshi]

This is interesting...

@Chris: Why is my vote for you scummier than Kunk's vote for me (assuming you think it is)?

[Furry]

CK, HG and mike need to vote/move their vote in their next post.

Just saying

[mikeburnfire]

Damnit. I don't want to put my vote where kunkstar's is.

unvote, vote kirbyoshi