Mafia 108 - Mafia With The Quickness - over!

[Zachrulez]

I'm seeing SK as more likely scum than Bogre.

Bogre touched on it in post 1004, but it's the firmness in stances that is what separates the two players for me. Bogre's stancces have looked more firm to me, where as SK's movement from one vote to the next has looked a lot more to me like a scum who wants to keep his options open.

When you put SK's rolefishing on top of that. I really don't like the idea of SK getting away from the noose.

[SaintKerrigan]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Haylen.

You distanced from Bogre, making a weak attack against him and then voting for Zach.

Well, I can't really defend against this, except to say I wasn't distancing.

That dosn't actually answer my question, which is, why do you think it's likely Zach is scum with Bogre considering that they were the main two bandwagons for most of day 1?

I think you mean why do I think it's likely that Zach is scum with Neto, right? Anyway, I'm suspicious because he didn't really try hard to come up with reasons for voting Neto until he was pressured into doing so. Just because he was voting Neto doesn't mean he's not scum. Like I said earlier, I've seen scum bus hard before.

(Also, nice little implied barb at the end there. I was certanly not "reluctant" to lynch Neto yesterday, and I think I made clear yesterday that I was intending to eventually vote for him; only reason I ended up not doing so was because the day ended so quickly.)

Actually, your desire to have Neto lynched is

not

clear Day 2. You entered a lot of hypothetical "what-ifs" concerning the possibility that Neto is scum, true, but I didn't see anything that implied you were going to vote for him. Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

What do you think about Bogre, SK?

Well, up until now I was thinking he was scum. However, your post (especially regarding what I feel is misrepresentation of your behavior towards Neto on Day 2) has just made me feel

very

uneasy about your alignment. And if you're scum, then your most plausible scumbuddy is Zach, which would mean Bogre is innocent (assuming a 3-man scumteam)...

To Everyone Here: What do you guys think about Zach and Yos?

[SaintKerrigan]

Bogre's stancces have looked more firm to me

How so?

[Yosarian2]

I think you mean why do I think it's likely that Zach is scum with Neto, right? Anyway, I'm suspicious because he didn't really try hard to come up with reasons for voting Neto until he was pressured into doing so. Just because he was voting Neto doesn't mean he's not scum. Like I said earlier, I've seen scum bus hard before.

It's not just that he was voting Neto. It's more that, in my experence, there are very rarely two major bandwagons competing against each other that are BOTH on scum; if one scum starts to get bandwagoned, scum usually push a wagon on a pro-town person to compete with it.

(Also, nice little implied barb at the end there. I was certanly not "reluctant" to lynch Neto yesterday, and I think I made clear yesterday that I was intending to eventually vote for him; only reason I ended up not doing so was because the day ended so quickly.)

Actually, your desire to have Neto lynched is

not

clear Day 2. You entered a lot of hypothetical "what-ifs" concerning the possibility that Neto is scum, true, but I didn't see anything that implied you were going to vote for him. Feel free to prove me wrong, though.

After I ran my voting analysis on day 2, this was my conclusion:

At the moment, I'm leaning towards lynching either Neto or Elibereth, because I can't think of any plausible scumgroups that dosn't include at least one or the other of them.

I don't understand how you could have read that and come away with the conclusion that I was "reluctant" to lynch for Neto.

What do you think about Bogre, SK?

Well, up until now I was thinking he was scum. However, your post (especially regarding what I feel is misrepresentation of your behavior towards Neto on Day 2) has just made me feel

very

uneasy about your alignment. And if you're scum, then your most plausible scumbuddy is Zach, which would mean Bogre is innocent (assuming a 3-man scumteam)...

Lol.

That's complete bull, SK. You've never given any sign that you "thought Bogre was scum". You made a weak attack against him, made an excuse for why you voted someone else instead, and now that I'm questioning you about it, you're trying to come up with some alternate theory to try to get someone other then Bogre lynched. You claim you "Thought he was scum", but you never once really supported a bandwagon on him, at all.

I think we've got this one in the bag. Scum team is SK and Bogre.

[SaintKerrigan]

It's not just that he was voting Neto. It's more that, in my experence, there are very rarely two major bandwagons competing against each other that are BOTH on scum; if one scum starts to get bandwagoned, scum usually push a wagon on a pro-town person to compete with it.

And in my experience, I've seen scum bus when a partner is viewed as scummy by a good number of the players. I don't think this argument is going to lead to anything constructive, so can we drop it?

I don't understand how you could have read that and come away with the conclusion that I was "reluctant" to lynch for Neto.

That's not very compelling. Your given reason for wanting to lynch Neto (as well as Elli) is for voting patterns only. From what you've said, you could just as easily have wanted to vote for Elli. Plus, you

were

reluctant to lynch Neto and Zach on Day 1, and by Day 2 it could easily have been decided (after a nice nightchat) that it was better off to bus Neto rather than try to defend him.

That's complete bull, SK. You've never given any sign that you "thought Bogre was scum". You made a weak attack against him, made an excuse for why you voted someone else instead, and now that I'm questioning you about it, you're trying to come up with some alternate theory to try to get someone other then Bogre lynched. You claim you "Thought he was scum", but you never once really supported a bandwagon on him, at all.

Hey, check this out:

I would vote for Bogre, but my vote would be the hammer, and I'm not ready to end the day just yet. I'm interested in seeing what other people have to say first.

You also seem to be forgetting that I was voting for him on Day 2.

[Incognito]

Vote Count #7 of Day 3

Haylen (1) <-~ Maemuki
*Bogre (4) <-~ Yosarian2, Haylen, Glork, Ellibereth
SaintKerrigan (2) <-~ Zachrulez, Bogre
Zachrulez (1) <-~ SaintKerrigan

With 8 alive, 5 votes will do it.

Note:

an asterisk by a player's name indicates said player would be lynched if Day were to end right this moment without a lynch majority.

Monday, January 18th at 5 P.M. EST

[Yosarian2]

It's not just that he was voting Neto. It's more that, in my experence, there are very rarely two major bandwagons competing against each other that are BOTH on scum; if one scum starts to get bandwagoned, scum usually push a wagon on a pro-town person to compete with it.

And in my experience, I've seen scum bus when a partner is viewed as scummy by a good number of the players.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was just making, which was about the low probability of there being two competing scum wagons; if scum decide to bus, then that also generally means there won't be two competing scum wagons.

I don't understand how you could have read that and come away with the conclusion that I was "reluctant" to lynch for Neto.

That's not very compelling. Your given reason for wanting to lynch Neto (as well as Elli) is for voting patterns only.

Yup. Based on voting patterns, I was sure that either Neto or Elli had to be scum. And I was correct; not sure why you're trying to talk down 'voting patterns', considering how well that method of scumhunting worked. It really wasn't based on Neto's actions; I didn't think his actions were that scummy, actually, other then his claim, but based on how day 1 turned out, and based on how people were voting at different times, there just weren't that many possible scenarios where he wasn't scum.

From what you've said, you could just as easily have wanted to vote for Elli.

If you read that whole post, how many possible scenarios I had with him as scum vs. with him as town, I think it would have been clear that I was really leaning towards lynching Neto, both because of the high chance of him being scum and in order to gather information; there really weren't many possible scumgroups that didn't include Neto.

Plus, you

were

reluctant to lynch Neto and Zach on Day 1, and by Day 2 it could easily have been decided (after a nice nightchat) that it was better off to bus Neto rather than try to defend him.

[/quote]

So, first you're attacking me for not attacking Neto, now you're accusing me of bussing him?

It really looks like you're just trying to come up whatever scenerio you can that makes me look like scum. I was somewhat unhappy with lynching Neto on day 1 (although I would have been in favor of a neto lynch over a Zach lynch), but I think you were more reluctant then I was.

That's complete bull, SK. You've never given any sign that you "thought Bogre was scum". You made a weak attack against him, made an excuse for why you voted someone else instead, and now that I'm questioning you about it, you're trying to come up with some alternate theory to try to get someone other then Bogre lynched. You claim you "Thought he was scum", but you never once really supported a bandwagon on him, at all.

Hey, check this out:

I would vote for Bogre, but my vote would be the hammer, and I'm not ready to end the day just yet. I'm interested in seeing what other people have to say first.

That was the excuse you gave for not voting for Bogre, in response to me questioning you about it and accusing you of distancing; basically, I accused you of being scum with Bogre and asked you what you thought about him, and you gave an excuse for not voting for him. Then, within a page, you suddenly started arguing that me and Zach were scum, and that Bogre was innocent.

Also, I think you were defending Bogre from GLork here:

Also, how is trying to put Bogre at L-1 (which he isn't at, by the way) and forcing him to claim any different from my "rolefishing" earlier? Come to think of it, you've already got a claim out of me. Now you're trying to get a claim out of someone else? This is making me feel uneasy about you. I guess I'll have to ISO you, in addition to Bogre.

You also seem to be forgetting that I was voting for him on Day 2.

Hmmm...you're right, actually, I did forget about it.

Looking back, this was where you voted for Bogre:

Unvote: Gayle. Vote: Bogre.

Misrepresentation noted.

Hmm. I do agree with you Bogre was misrepresenting Gayle there (I assume that's what you were talking about?) It's interesting; you kept your vote on Bogre for most of day 2, but I don't see much else you said to reinforce your attack on him.

Anyway, if you thought Bogre was scum on day 2, then why did you not seem to want to follow up on that today?

[SaintKerrigan]

I'm not voting Bogre at the moment because:

A: My vote hammers him, and I want some discussion first.
B: You are currently making me feel uneasy, and if you're scum, I doubt Bogre is your partner.

If I had to vote right this minute, my vote would go on Bogre. Since I don't have to vote right this minute, I'm interested in exploring other possibilities. Right now, I'm exploring the Yos/Zach/Neto scumhood possibility.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was just making, which was about the low probability of there being two competing scum wagons; if scum decide to bus, then that also generally means there won't be two competing scum wagons.

(sigh)

My

point was that we're arguing different points of view on what scum will and won't do. I feel that arguing as such is fruitless.

Yup. Based on voting patterns, I was sure that either Neto or Elli had to be scum. And I was correct; not sure why you're trying to talk down 'voting patterns', considering how well that method of scumhunting worked. It really wasn't based on Neto's actions; I didn't think his actions were that scummy, actually, other then his claim, but based on how day 1 turned out, and based on how people were voting at different times, there just weren't that many possible scenarios where he wasn't scum.

If you read that whole post, how many possible scenarios I had with him as scum vs. with him as town, I think it would have been clear that I was really leaning towards lynching Neto, both because of the high chance of him being scum and in order to gather information; there really weren't many possible scumgroups that didn't include Neto.

So why didn't you vote for him, then? Actually, I have an idea. (See below.)

So, first you're attacking me for not attacking Neto, now you're accusing me of bussing him?

I should've said "distance" instead of bus. If you come out and bus him, it would make you look more suspicious. So you have to follow a logical progression first, find a reason to make him look suspicious from your point of view, so then when you

do

bus him, it all looks natural.

That was the excuse you gave for not voting for Bogre, in response to me questioning you about it and accusing you of distancing; basically, I accused you of being scum with Bogre and asked you what you thought about him, and you gave an excuse for not voting for him. Then, within a page, you suddenly started arguing that me and Zach were scum, and that Bogre was innocent.

Because if you and Zach are scum (and assuming there's only a 3-man scum team), Bogre must be innocent. I find it hard to pair Bogre up with either you or Zach. On the other hand, I could see you and Zach as scumpartners. Like I said earlier in this post, I'm interested in seeing what else is out there, and not just lynch the person I see is scummiest right now. Who knows what evidence probing like this can turn up?

Also, I think you were defending Bogre from GLork here:

Also, how is trying to put Bogre at L-1 (which he isn't at, by the way) and forcing him to claim any different from my "rolefishing" earlier? Come to think of it, you've already got a claim out of me. Now you're trying to get a claim out of someone else? This is making me feel uneasy about you. I guess I'll have to ISO you, in addition to Bogre.

This isn't me defending Bogre. This is me asking Glork how what he is doing isn't considered "rolefishing," which I've been accused (by him and other people) of doing. I think you're stretching a bit here.

Hmm. I do agree with you Bogre was misrepresenting Gayle there (I assume that's what you were talking about?) It's interesting; you kept your vote on Bogre for most of day 2, but I don't see much else you said to reinforce your attack on him.

I wasn't feeling well for the latter part of Day 2, if you'll recall. Neto got lynched before I could return and continue my line of inquiry.

Anyway, if you thought Bogre was scum on day 2, then why did you not seem to want to follow up on that today?

Because at the start of the day I was more preoccupied with ISO'ing Haylen and Maemuki, two of my suspects at the time. By the time Bogre came back into the spotlight, I decided I wanted to re-ISO him to make sure I had my suspicions right. When I was done with that, he was at L-1, so I couldn't vote for him. I was also dealing with conflicting suspicions of Bogre and Zachrulez. As I said earlier, I don't think those two can be scum together.

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh, and I don't think Glork ever answered my question regarding the "rolefishing." Glork, mind answering that for me?

[Maemuki]

I'm not voting Bogre at the moment because:

A: My vote hammers him, and I want some discussion first.

*looks at deadline*

If I had to vote right this minute, my vote would go on Bogre. Since I don't have to vote right this minute, I'm interested in exploring other possibilities. Right now, I'm exploring the Yos/Zach/Neto scumhood possibility.

*looks at deadline*

---

Dear SK,

You rolefished 'cause you asked Hayl "so why don't you want to claim?", which is a nice way to say "so please claim".

Btw,

unvote

. I wonder if Bogre can get over here before deadline...

Love,
Mae

[SaintKerrigan]

*pokes Mae because he's so tired of hearing about the rolefishing claim that he really can't defend against except to say that he wasn't trying to do it*

I'm fully aware of the deadline. I'm also aware that it hasn't happened yet. I doubt Bogre is going to escape the noose (unless I get run up as an alternate wagon), so why not wait a while and talk about things, see what we can discover, eh?

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh, and I thought you didn't love me anymore...

[Maemuki]

*pokes Mae because he's so tired of hearing about the rolefishing claim that he really can't defend against except to say that he wasn't trying to do it*

I'm fully aware of the deadline. I'm also aware that it hasn't happened yet. I doubt Bogre is going to escape the noose (unless I get run up as an alternate wagon), so why not wait a while and talk about things, see what we can discover, eh?

*gets sword because she's so tired of hearing about that excuse*

Yeah, if you want me to be super bored...sure why not.

[Maemuki]

Oh, and I thought you didn't love me anymore... ;)

That's my usual format.... :(

[SaintKerrigan]

*screams...silence...

drip drip drip

*

So what do you think about Zach and Yos?

[Haylen]

*smacks you both round the head with a newspaper*

Quit it. 2.5 hrs til deadline.

*knocks myself out with newspaper.*

[SaintKerrigan]

Oh hai, Haylen. What do you think about Zach and Yos?

[Haylen]

I think I still want to straighten Yos' hair, and I think Zach is a pretty nice guy.

[SaintKerrigan]

I think I still want to straighten Yos' hair, and I think Zach is a pretty nice guy.

Not what I meant, and I think you know that. I'm interested in whether you think either Yos or Zach is scummy.

[Maemuki]

I think I still want to straighten Yos' hair, and I think Zach is a pretty nice guy.

Dear Haylen,

....

Love,
Mae

*screams...silence...

drip drip drip

*

So what do you think about Zach and Yos?

Zach isn't scum. Yos isn't scum. For now of course.

[Haylen]

I dont think either of them is scummy. But i'm trying to work out why Yos has been kept alive for so long, if he's town.

[Haylen]

Dear Mae,

You're still one of my favourite girls on MS

<3

Love, Hayl

[SaintKerrigan]

Either of you care to elaborate on your reasons why?

[Haylen]

Because there arent many girls on MS?

[SaintKerrigan]

Sorry, not what I meant. I was referring to your opinions on Zach and Yos.