Mini 902: Pick your Poison 4 (Game over!)

[Patrick]

Votecount

Yosarian2 (1) -- farside22
Riceballtail (3) -- Sajin, Yosarian2, ortolan
chamber (1) -- Riceballtail
CooLDoG (3) -- Porochaz, chamber, Leech

Not voting: scotmany12, malpascp, Anon, CooLDoG
12 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Patrick]

Looking into replacing malpascp unless he posts today.

[Sajin]

EBWOP: Of course no two people should protect the same person.

What is the reasoning for this?



@Yossiran- a vengeful would kill a protown person 66 percent of the time? Uh....

1- You brought up doctors protections as a reason to not have one, and then you do not factor them in when your talking about it again.

You do not consider Vig kills nor the fact that 2 kills happening on the same night (when town knows its about to happen too!) increases chances for a successful protection as well.

Your clearly using the facts that benefit the one small point your trying to make at that particular moment. I am debating whether or not I should find this a scum tell for you or if it is just shrewd arguing. Care to enlighten me?

[Riceballtail]

Ort: and you know full well that when I'm town, I can be just as erratic and irrational. I'll remind you that I was actually scum in Sushi Mafia as well.

[Porochaz]

Ort if you know your meta then its not that useful. Also terrible play shouldnt be used as an excuse.

[scotmany12]

EBWOP: Of course no two people should protect the same person.

What is the reasoning for this?

No clue really. I think I might have been getting the weak doc mixed up with something else. Actually now that I think of it, and after rereading pyp2 a little bit, we should definitely repeat choices, so that if the weak doc ends up protecting a kill the scum do not automatically no his/her identity. We should have like groups of 2 or 3 people that protect the same person.

[CooLDoG]

RBT is rather scummy

Firstly that whole table thing just looks like an attempt to pretend to contribute- "hey guys, we probably have a masoniser on our hands!"

Also the whole "we should lynch chamber because of ~incoherent reason vaguely related to someone saying chamber never gives reasoning~"

CooLDoG usually plays like this (see: meta, his signature). Thus he gets a free pass relative to RBT who I recall being less anti-town and illogical in Sushi Mafia.

Vote: RBT

hehehehe.... Yes he is right, try doing a very small meta on me and you will mostlikly say that I am play normal...

@RBT, yes chamber does not explain stuff to the town and he does act alot like empking (I hate that guy!).

Also to note chamber didn't really talk much in the pre-game. At first I had an idea that poro was slightly scummy but after a reread + his answers I am now leaning more toward rice, or a chamber vote.

[ortolan]

EBWOP: Of course no two people should protect the same person.

What is the reasoning for this?

No clue really. I think I might have been getting the weak doc mixed up with something else. Actually now that I think of it, and after rereading pyp2 a little bit, we should definitely repeat choices, so that if the weak doc ends up protecting a kill the scum do not automatically no his/her identity. We should have like groups of 2 or 3 people that protect the same person.

Yer I agree, I meant to bring that up before also

Poro: CooLDoG needs to give me something scummier than his base play for me to vote him. I prefer RBT atm.

RBT: acknowledge my mistake wrt Sushi Mafia. Still, I won't consider unvoting you until you move (or provide better rationale for) the chamber vote.

[Patrick]

CallMeLiam replaces malpascp.

[CallMeLiam]

Checking in, pretty busy, post tomorrow

[Anon]

Im here. Rereading now.

[Anon]

Here are my opinions so far:

The Yos-farside interchange was originated by a weak point by farside. Since these guys like analogies, here is how I see the situation:

Farside: Yos, you are scummy because you suggested "insert D0 proposal here",
Yosarian: Ok, but you suggested "insert another D0 proposal here" so I dont see how you are attacking me for something you did worse.
Farside: Ok, but you also missed what others had to say about "insert the farside proposal here"
Yosarian: lol wtf?

I had the same reaction. The fact that others thought like farside is not even related to the fact about the potential scumminess of yosarian2 or farside's proposals. Farside, do you agree with my view of the situation?

.....

Anyways, this feels town-town so far. First for the fact that I think farside scum would be more careful with attacking someone of the reputation of yosarian2. So I think this is more probable farside town thinking he saw something damning and pushed the case, as an inquisitive townie would do. Yosarian's answers also feel good to me.

......

Sajin is good and chamber is also close. I have neutral reads from ortolan, leech and porochaz, so you better start posting more.

......

That said, my three suspects are cooldog, riceballtail and scotmany.

Cooldog doesnt post much and when he does is basically to push the rbt case, like a scum trying to push a wagon with weak reasoning (see ex.). I also dont like the "lol, this is my normal play" so yeah.

I am not a fan of crying omgus and don't like to use it as a def or as a voting issue (because i have seen tons of town players omgus...), however this def of yours is very week and it does not stand very well.

Cooldog, how is this OMGUS weak and how does it differentiate from others you have seen?

Scotmany is also a player that feels like someone staying in the sideways. I definitely was expecting him to vote riceballtail after his attacks on 14 and 15 but he is not, like he is being too careful in fully attacking him (yeah that means a possible connection here). Scotmany, who do you think is scum and why?

Finally I agree with what some have said about RBT (the power role table feels like "look-townie" maneuver, response to chamber's is scummy as hell, posting very little in day 0 and what really bothers me:

@ rbt any other reason other then the omgus for voting chamber?

His complete inability to explain anything to the town. There is no reason to allow this. He's contributing nothing of use; he's reached the point of a policy lynch in my mind, as he's about as useless as Empking. The only reason to not lynch him to me right now is because someone claimed scum.

These are not scumtells and you want to lynch someone even before (Im pretty sure) on having reads on the majority of other players. How can you be so sure chamber is scum for something that isnt even a obv scumtell?

Vote: Riceballtail.

Fos: Colldog and Scotmany.

[farside22]

Anon: My view was to everything people said at the begining the thing that struck me was the proposals and I felt Yos keen on an idea like RC/RB is scummy. He is saying that GF/Ven is worse which I don't see this combo as worse. Vengeful = bad. GF/Ven together is not a worse combo in my mind even reading Yos pov. I feel he is saying my idea bad as a way to escape the scrinity I took in pointing this out.

I will take some time to reread everyone again tomorrow.

[scotmany12]

If I thought RBT was scum I would be voting for him. Me questioning him and criticizing his decisions and explaining why people are voting for him does not mean i think he is scum.

I haven't had a lot of time lately. When I look back a little bit, I'm wary of both wagons, and particularly do not like leech's vote on cooldog.

Vote: CoolDog

I really don't like his plays in this game, so far. He's being far too overly defensive. A few choices of words have really stuck out to me as well.

"If you think I'm scum, vote for me" is a good example. More often than not, when I see something like that being said, it's usually said by scum.

First off, I hate the "he's being overly defensive" attack. It's horrible. And the bolded part bugs me due to this only being Leech's third game on the site. How often have you seen people saying that? His whole reasoning feels very contrived and is horrible, and this post reeks of opportunism.

Vote: Leech

Ortolan is bugging me a little bit too but that's mostly just gut.

[Leech]

I've played well over 20 games on other sites than this. You shouldn't really assume that just because someone's only played three games on one site, that they are new to the game and haven't discovered patterns in how people play.

So far, that is all I really have to go on. Everyone else is seemingly arguing over nothing in my eyes. I don't think disagreeing about what role is more powerful, is substantial by any means. People have different perspectives. CoolDog is the only one that I've even see hint at being scummy.

[CooLDoG]

@anon,
1) I unlike some people, have a very busy real-life. So I can't post much.
2) omgus as a scum-tell is weak because I have seen many town players OMGUS. A scum-tell is somthing that leads you to think that someone is scum, if town players omgus then it is no longer a scum tell.

[Porochaz]

Breaking golden rule number 37 - Useless posturing should be forbidden.

Cooldog is obv scum, he needs to be lynched.

[farside22]

So far, that is all I really have to go on. Everyone else is seemingly arguing over nothing in my eyes. I don't think disagreeing about what role is more powerful, is substantial by any means. People have different perspectives. CoolDog is the only one that I've even see hint at being scummy.

Did you read the other pyp games out of curiosity?
See the point you seem to maybe not thinking is scum is voting on the power they get too. They may push certain idea's over others to give themselves a better opportunity to win and since they know what we have then they could use this to their advantage.

[Anon]

@anon,
1) I unlike some people, have a very busy real-life. So I can't post much.
2) omgus as a scum-tell is weak because I have seen many town players OMGUS. A scum-tell is somthing that leads you to think that someone is scum, if town players omgus then it is no longer a scum tell.

So why the hell are you voting riceballtail?

[Anon]

If I thought RBT was scum I would be voting for him. Me questioning him and criticizing his decisions and explaining why people are voting for him does not mean i think he is scum.

What do you think of the cases people are posting against him? Do you agree with them, disagree, not sure?

[Yosarian2]

EBWOP: Of course no two people should protect the same person.

What is the reasoning for this?



@Yossiran- a vengeful would kill a protown person 66 percent of the time? Uh....

1- You brought up doctors protections as a reason to not have one, and then you do not factor them in when your talking about it again.

You do not consider Vig kills nor the fact that 2 kills happening on the same night (when town knows its about to happen too!) increases chances for a successful protection as well.

Your clearly using the facts that benefit the one small point your trying to make at that particular moment. I am debating whether or not I should find this a scum tell for you or if it is just shrewd arguing. Care to enlighten me?

66% of the time just meant that there was a 1/3 chance that the vengeful scum would be the last scum person left, and therefore wouldn't get a kill.

It's not really that likely that he gets either vigged or doc protected; the odds of a doc or weak doc stopping any given kill is quite small (There has to be a doc who's still alive at that point, the scum has to not target the doc, and then if there's, say, 9 people left it's still just a 1/8 chance) and the idea of counting on a vig that might not even exist to kill one specific scum before we lynch that scum sounds like a really bad idea to me. But you're right, there is a chance he tries to kill and fails, or gets vigged, and that actually lowers the odds a bit. (not much, IMHO, but a bit)

Of course, there's also a chance he intentionally gets himself lynched at a key moment, doing a "jester strike" to get himself lynched instead of a scumbuddy or in lynch or lose, which then raises the odds again.

I'm really not sure why we're still arguing about this, considering that everyone already agreed that giving the scum vengeful was a bad idea and we already made our decision. Also, I'm not sure why you're grilling me on this when I've already explained all of this in exhausting detail back when we actually WERE making this decision. If you thought vengeful was a good idea, you should have made that argument BEFORE we picked the power roles, not now.

[Yosarian2]

EBWOP: Of course no two people should protect the same person.

What is the reasoning for this?

No clue really. I think I might have been getting the weak doc mixed up with something else. Actually now that I think of it, and after rereading pyp2 a little bit, we should definitely repeat choices, so that if the weak doc ends up protecting a kill the scum do not automatically no his/her identity. We should have like groups of 2 or 3 people that protect the same person.

Doing "weak doc hypoclaim" is much more dangerous then doing a cop hypoclaim; every person who hypoclaims they would have protected a scum and then lives, the scum can then figure out "that person's not the weak doc". Also, if you hypoclaim you were doc protecting someone and they die, that also tells the scum you're not the weak doc. Doing that will likely let the scum figure out who the weak doc is fairly quicky, and once they do, they can use the hypoclaim to confuse us (either kill the weak doc who's going to target someone they want mislynched, or else not kill when the hypodoc is going to target them, so there's just one kill that night and it dosn't prove anything). I'm not really sure hypoclaim is the best way to use a weak doc.

[farside22]

I'm thinking if there is a weak doctor and the scum know that there is then hypoclaiming could be bad. The scum know their claims are fake and the only thing they have to worry about is if someone targets one of them.
I think if I was a weak doc I would try and be subtle about who I was going to protect in some way. Idk I'm trying to think of the best way to utilize a possible role.
Scotty I think I recall you said they used a weak doc before with hypoclaiming. Did this help the town or the scum more in sigling out the weak doc? I didn't have a chance to look through the game so a brief how it worked and the pro's and con's on it would be helpful.

[Yosarian2]

The scum know their claims are fake and the only thing they have to worry about is if someone targets one of them.
I think if I was a weak doc I would try and be subtle about who I was going to protect in some way. Idk I'm trying to think of the best way to utilize a possible role.

My advice to the weak doc would be something like this:

A weak doc, if there is one, should protect someone he or she thinks is obvtown. This both confirms the person as town, and has a good shot of preventing a scum kill, as well as making the scum second-guess their kill choice if the most obvtown person might get protected, and is less likely to cost us the weak doc. Probably the best thing a weak doc can do is to carefully confirm a few people as town and then claim, and/or breadcrumb after confirming someone as town. Breadcrumbing before the weak doc targets someone is possible too, although it's tricker.

[scotmany12]

We caught scum using the weak doc hypoclaim in pyp 2. Weak doc is not a protective role, it's an investigative role. We're hypoclaiming. And no one is confirmed due to being protected due to the godfather. What we need to figure out is how we are going to be hypoclaiming, if we are all going to choose a different target or have some of us repeat targets.

If I thought RBT was scum I would be voting for him. Me questioning him and criticizing his decisions and explaining why people are voting for him does not mean i think he is scum.

What do you think of the cases people are posting against him? Do you agree with them, disagree, not sure?

I understand their cases against him. I don't agree with them because I don't think he is scum at the moment.