Kingdom Hearts Mafia - Game Over!

[Iecerint]

That's true. DN was pretty much null rather than obvtown or obvscum at that time. I think lying to lynch a null player is sketchy stuff.

[DTMaster]

@Hayker
My Role PM does not tell me why I am fighting with the town, just that I win when all threats are eliminated to the town. I get some normal flavour information that I already know, but that is it.

If you must know: Both Chip and Dale are the builders of the gummi ships. Hence why I bread crumbed my flavour and mason role by throwing gummi blocks.

@Wolf
Wait, in that claim, did Raider just claimed lyncher? Is that the angle you are aiming at?

@SW
It can be possible to have a night/day system. I refrence Battle Mafia and Night Day Mafia where one faction had exclusive day kills and the other had exclusive night kills.

Actually if you run with that theory, that can explain the 3 scum scenario. If Kise flips scum (especially SK) or we get an SK flip

we need to lynch Ice

.

@Kise
I answered your flavour questions with a thought. No answer?

@Ice
DN/Flare is auto townie now? That reads as a slip of alignment knowledge right there. How do you know this?

[DTMaster]

@Ice Again
DN has a record for being a policy lynch for a reason like Zwet did. DGB's town cred argument fits well here because most townies would like to get rid of those people who appear scummy.

Lurking town's anti-town argument runs thin after a while.

Your defense of DN is scummy. The lack of reference to Flare is troubling me. The right argument is: Flareon appears more townie after replacing for DN, not that DN appears to be scum tunnel magnet.

[Kise]

@Kise
I answered your flavour questions with a thought. No answer?

Wrong person. I don't recall asking you any question at all.

[Iecerint]

If I am my poor scumteam's only kill method, why would I claim to be only 2-shot? Town daily vigs, even town daily compulsive vigs, are not unheard of. [/WIFOM]

Flare could be scum, but there is no evidence of it, except for perhaps the Castle Oblivion business. I'm inclined to believe that he shares an alignment with the other lurkers Cobalt targeted D1 (zwet and DoS, if I'm not mistaken). He could be Heartless, I suppose, but we scarcely know anything about them, anyway, because SSK was the one that flipped.

Policy lynches are scummy -- especially secret ones. You shouldn't lynch players unless you believe them to be scum. You're just giving scum free nights.

[Kise]

No, I'm dealing with "question marks." If DN posted more and actually answered questions directed at him, I would leave him alone.

[Kise]

How long would you have left DN go by, playing like he was?

[Iecerint]

You could use that "question mark" logic to lynch almost anyone in the game.

The proper way to deal with low-activity players is to replace them, or, failing that, to investigate them. Scum are unlikely to kill them, and you're unlikely to get a good idea of their alignment without it.

I'm aware that some players have a difference of opinion with regard to how to deal with anti-town players and to address policy lynches; however, I doubt that many would argue that it is appropriate to insinuate a PR to pull one off. Let's not lose sight of the whole circumstance here.

Refer to Twilight mafia for a game where scum actively planned to work the policy-lynch angle pre-game.

[Iecerint]

I would have let him go on indefinitely until we either had no clear suspects (i.e. no players more likely than chance to be scum) or someone claimed a guilty on him. Should note that the former case can sometimes lead to a legitimate early-game lynch.

[Kise]

Scum are unlikely to kill them, and you're unlikely to get a good idea of their alignment without it.

No telling whether DN was down with the scum or not, is what I'm getting at.

[Iecerint]

Repost the sentence with its paragraph as context and you'll see what I'm getting at.

Since you haven't brought up any examples, I'm guessing you don't have a history of telling lies, white ones or otherwise, as town?

[Kise]

Shittin' me! I white lie as town and try my hand at gambits and scare tactics occasionally. I lied as odd-night cop by claiming even-night cop to lower chance of being roleblocked; I claimed PGO when I was really Ascetic; as Ghost, I claimed to be able to make my nightkiller voteless the next day when really I could just make a vote from beyond the grave; a few games, I've faked breadcrumbs or jokingly softclaimed a powerrole knowing damn well I was VT; and I think it was on-site when I faked submitting a daykill in a thread just to scare a newb and see how he responded when thinking he was going to be out of the game soon.

[Kise]

I've faked breadcrumbs or jokingly softclaimed a powerrole knowing damn well I was VT

Admittedly, there was one time where I just wanted to draw scum's kill and end my obligation to the game.

>_>

<_<

But hey, better I get nightkilled than the real powerroles.

[Snow White]

@Wolf and Ray. Kise has:
1.Breadcrumbed cop with a guilty on DN.
2.Backtracked and said that if he was wrong it was the bus drivers fault.
3.Claimed he implied nothing.
4.Admitted he wanted a policy lynch on DN.
5.Re-claims that if DN was lynched he would take responsibility.
6.But when Raider looked like the one for the noose, he jumps ships because he admits, only after Iec called him out that his plan was "dickheaded"

As has already been stated. DN is an easy lynch one scum can go for under a pretence of policy lynching. Having played together with Kise and DN in the same game, i cannot recall an attempt on Kise's part to policy lynch DN. Thereby: Does not compute.

Next i dont like the haste for hammers Kise has displayed and hope to get a chance to examine the VC's to see how many of the lynches has Kise been on. Im not infallible so i like to tick as many bases as i can. But in all other cases i consider the above anti town to anyone.

*Sigh* in regard to the Scar thing its just speculation on my behalf. I think theres an SK in our midst. I know some of you think ive gone off the deep end but if what i think is true then i suspect Kise is a SK.
1. Cobalt in his death fit claimed with his death we would know the last flavour kill of the nobodies. His last words being "YOU WILL ALL DISOLVE IN THE VOID" Sound good to you? He did not call out "YOU WILL ALL BE CUT INTO PIECES"
2. We've had a

heartless cop

, we've had a

nobody cop

stablity wise i believe

Ace's claim

that he has a shot ability to a players alignment and can see the alignment of an

unspecified third party

Ive been right on things like this before. My only potential question mark is over who maybe the SK but my gut is screaming Kise.
3. Kise claimed that "i would expect scum to call my bluff since they would know they're the

only threat to town left

" This translates to me as:
a) The "

only

threat to town

left

" implies that one threat has died off. Admittedly having 3nobody scum dead seems like a total wipeout? An SK wouldnt know.
b) If Kise was talking about both scum, it doesnt explain why he used the words "only. threat. left". As only is singular. Left insinuates something has been taken away from the mafia equation. And with 2NK's why would he think there is only one scumgroup left?

But thats as far as the KiseSK goes. However the below tied into my thoughts to an extent.

In regards to Raiders innocence (imo) as to Scar:
a) If we go with Colbalts word that the last nobody's flavourkill is "disolved in the void" the cut in pieces makes no sense.
b) The re-occuring deathflavour is "cut into pieces" something that could pass for a lion. Scar? So if Colbalt was telling the truth then killflavour "cut into pieces" is SK. And if Scar is in the game then Raider was telling the truth.
c) I tried clarifying whether or not Scar was actually indefinately in the game. Because until Raider's self doubt i felt positive the SK was Scar. Scar was in the game and airgo Raider was innocent. But this seems to have back fired on me.
d) I dont see raider as heartless scum claiming Scar is in game, unless he knew Scar was actually in the game. And at that if theres someone who likes KH on their scumteam then they are going to cross out any mention of Scar and just go ahead with the fake claim.
e) Because raiders been to L-1 numerous times, mafia, would be inclined to point out how the NK's could match up and i dont believe this was done until i pointed it out and furthermore, i think its the work of an SK. Not scum.
f) No heartless mafia kill appears to match the work of Scar. If i were scum mate to Raider and he claimed Scar was in the game, i'd want to give some weight to his claim, verifying his towniness and send in a ScarKill. Has this happened? No. Do i think raider is heartless scum? No.
g) I dont see him as being nobody scum because one can assume the nobodies know nothing about the heartless and Scar would be an ill fated excuse to include imho. on top of this, Colbalts death throes.
h) I can only conclude Raider as being innocent.

Do i think, you think, im insane? Yes.
Will i retract what i think? No. Because these are my thoughts, if you expect me to say otherwise you may go and gorge teabags. I hope this clarified things but if i havent well there's no other way i believe i can phrase things to make it any simpler.

@Kise: if someone inactive replacements are not unheard of. Id rather replacement over potential townie.

@DTM: LOL. i was in the DayNight mafia with you! You have me totally blinded i might add rat scallion! I felt so betrayed! But the problem there is that there have been no end day kills.
Furthermore, Iecerint is one of the only people who has not wrote me off as clinicly insane although he does seem slightly skeptical. Correct me fi im wrong on that but thats probably listed as a good thing that one doesnt immediately trust, why would i want to lynch him? He's been nothing but helpful. And i found his day vigs exceedingly pro town. At present he is one of the furthest away from my mind as scum. Others being you, ace, raider and DGB.

[DrippingGoofball]

We're lynching Kise.

More votes, please.

[wolframnhart]

@DTmaster

I am not sure what a lyncher? is so I don't know if that is where I am going with my argument.

@SW
Ok thank you for a much clearer clarification on the Kise case, however here are my thoughts.

To me we are dealing with two liars today, Raider and Kise, question is which one do we choose?

I understand that Kise lied and almost got who people are now believing to be a townie lynched, yet if DN wasn't acting so scummy I don't think people would have gone along with it as quickly as they did. Flare has been slighty more active, but just barely, and maybe should be looked at again. Had DN flipped town Kise would have had a lot of explaining to do, but I am not sure that a scum memeber would admit to lying to get a possible townie lynched.

Raider, on the other hand, to me has lied about his role PM, saying that Scar is in the game, then saying Scar is not or might not be in the game. To me, lying about your role PM means you are trying to save yourself from being lynched, which is very scummy to me. Because of this I am still comfortable with my Raider vote because I do not believe his Simba claim since he lied about the Scar part of it, so i therefore think he is lying about the whole thing.

[raider8169]

To me we are dealing with two liars today, Raider and Kise, question is which one do we choose?

I understand that Kise lied and almost got who people are now believing to be a townie lynched, yet if DN wasn't acting so scummy I don't think people would have gone along with it as quickly as they did. Flare has been slighty more active, but just barely, and maybe should be looked at again. Had DN flipped town Kise would have had a lot of explaining to do, but I am not sure that a scum memeber would admit to lying to get a possible townie lynched.

Raider, on the other hand, to me has lied about his role PM, saying that Scar is in the game, then saying Scar is not or might not be in the game. To me, lying about your role PM means you are trying to save yourself from being lynched, which is very scummy to me. Because of this I am still comfortable with my Raider vote because I do not believe his Simba claim since he lied about the Scar part of it, so i therefore think he is lying about the whole thing.

You can really put what I did in the same category as what kise did? Scar can still be in the game but seriously you are making a big deal about a possible scum play role name? Does it really matter if scar is in the game or not? Is that really going to change how you play the game? Could you have not guessed that without me saying anything at all just by making a list of all the bad guys in the game? Would you have rather me not said anything at all when I had a different understanding of how the flavor in the roles tie into the game based on new information that have been revealed in the game?

[wolframnhart]

Yes I am making a big deal out of it Raider. You

claimed

you knew Scar was in the game. You basically said you were privy to information. Then you went back and said you didn't know, when you said you knew the first time around. DN (nor Flare) was not lynched. Kise lied. []bYou[/b] lied and I believe you lied about your role entirely. I don't care which villains are in the game, scum is scum.

Both lies are bad either way, i am just saying that you lied to try and protect yourself, which means you lied about your role, in other words you are scum.

[raider8169]

Yes I am making a big deal out of it Raider. You

claimed

you knew Scar was in the game. You basically said you were privy to information. Then you went back and said you didn't know, when you said you knew the first time around. DN (nor Flare) was not lynched. Kise lied. []bYou[/b] lied and I believe you lied about your role entirely. I don't care which villains are in the game, scum is scum.

Both lies are bad either way, i am just saying that you lied to try and protect yourself, which means you lied about your role, in other words you are scum.

So you just want anyone you can easily kill dead...noted.

I never said I was privy to information I just said I had flavor information. Look back in the other flavor information that has been released in this game and tell me if all of those were true or if those players lied as well. Also, why are you only focusing on Kise and me? You ignore the rest or at least dont make a big deal or even note of them before. Why now?

Also why not answer the rest of the questions? Or is it like you said you dont care about the roles that are in this game? If that was really the case you wouldnt care about the flavor I claimed and if that was the case you wouldnt be trying to call me out like you are. Your trying to use everything against me but say you dont care. Which is it?

[Flareonage]

I'm really liking the case against Kise mostly because he said if DN was innocent we could go ahead and lynch. That was a ballsy move and it's time to own up

Unvote

VOTE: Kise

[wolframnhart]

I don't care if Scar is or is not in this game, what I care about is that you said (once again) you

knew

Scar was in this game, then you said you didn't know if he was or wsn't, you lied about the fact that he was or wasn't in this game, which to me means you lied about your role pm, I won't say this again raider.

[Iecerint]

A lyncher is a 3rd party role who wins if the town lynches a specific rolename while he is still alive. If the lynchee dies in some other fashion, the lyncher (usually) adopts the town win condition. Check the wiki.

WFH's point that raiderScum's lie came out in a way designed to make him look townier whereas Kise's came out in a way that damned him -- when he didn't necessarily have to tell the truth at all -- is a good one. I'm not switching right now for two reasons.

First, it's possible that raider's apparent lie was innocent. I frankly doubt it, but it's possible. Second, Kise has reminded me of Grimm's PMM lately. Granted, that's the only game I've played with him, so he may just be reminding me of himself, but I let the pressure down that game, too, and his team ended up winning.

[Hayker]

Mod:Could you give us a vote count please?

[raider8169]

I don't care if Scar is or is not in this game, what I care about is that you said (once again) you

knew

Scar was in this game, then you said you didn't know if he was or wsn't, you lied about the fact that he was or wasn't in this game, which to me means you lied about your role pm, I won't say this again raider.

So in short you are mad that you think I lied about flavor? Not that I lied about a night action or something that actually effects the game any?

BTW, its wasnt a lie more a misunderstanding on my part. It happens and I am sure will happen agian in this game and also happened before in this game as well. You just dont care about those ones.

[Shotty to the Body]

Mod:Could you give us a vote count please?

This.

I support the Kise lynch, lying about secret info was all I needed to hit that wagon. Ace tomorrow unless he comes up with some confirmable results imo.