Newbie 888 - Game Over!

[Gayle]

I am very strongly opposed to this notion that someone who isn't helpful should be replaced. No matter how bad a player is, he has the right to play the game. Furthermore, replacements severely hurt the game. They shouldn't happen when they are not strictly necessary. The only acceptable reason to replace someone is if they simply aren't there.

I'm not really saying that unhelpful players should be replaced, especially in a newbie game. You, RM, and PD (this is from memory) pushed to policy lynch Medix. If you want to policy lynch him, might as well have him replaced, instead of risking a townie lynch.

A question: Is this a discussion about mafia theory or is it relevant to the game?

Then why did you post it?

Because I'm not as serious about the game as you seem to be.

And why did you then say-

Because my suspicions in that post were built around that, as I've already explained.

Because the way you're phrasing it both times makes it seem like it's an evaluation of another player, not yourself. And the latter is a softclaim if ever there was one.

It was not a softclaim. When I claim I'll make sure you know it is a claim. And it

was

another player. My case is built around the theory that scum tried to bandwagon Medix, and that they could do this because of Medix's behavior. There is no reason at all to refer to myself instead of Medix there.

Word 'Theory' used because you don't like when I use 'Fact'.


Also in that latest post by RM, PD is quoting a particularly scummy statement by himself.

[Lastsurvivor]

I've got alot on my plate right now. I'm modding some mafia games on other sites.

@gayle: When I replace I usually don't read the pages I missed. When there aren't too many pages I skim through them

If you're so busy, then why the hell did you replace into this game AND Mini 898?

[Gayle]

I want to remind everyone that the deadline is in five days. A No Lynch is a horribly bad idea.

Also, rereading Michel, I think he was trying to push a policy lynch rather strongly. It makes me question whether he or kunk is the scum, so I'll change my vote to a more definite scum.

Unvote, VOTE: PatriotsDynasty09

[almightybob]

Because I'm not as serious about the game as you seem to be.

I dislike any defence based on "it was a joke/not serious", it's a very weak cop-out.

It was not a softclaim. When I claim I'll make sure you know it is a claim.

Stating that your replacee is Town/a townie is a softclaim in my book. The fact that you didn't make it explicit - "I am a Vanilla Townie" style - is why it's a

soft

claim.

And it

was

another player.

You and Medix have the same role. By asserting that he is Town/a Townie, you are asserting that you are. For the purposes of asserting roles, Medix = Gayle, Flareonage = MT, almightybob = walrus helmet. Hence the softclaim problem.

A No Lynch is a horribly bad idea.

Agreed. Rereading PD just now, but off the top of my head I can't say he's struck me as hugely Town so I'll probably be OK with his lynch today.

[almightybob]

OK is there a summary of the case against PD somewhere? Because I'm not seeing anything hugely scummy from that iso. It could be because there isn't a lot there, but he doesn't seem particularly scummy from that.

[Gayle]

You and Medix have the same role. By asserting that he is Town/a Townie, you are asserting that you are. For the purposes of asserting roles, Medix = Gayle, Flareonage = MT, almightybob = walrus helmet. Hence the softclaim problem.

Okay, I understand why you might not

like

such statements. What I don't get is why you keeping pushing this. Now,

I

beleive that it is not a claim if you don't have the intention of claiming. I've explained multiple times my reason for that second 'claim'. You insist that it

is

a claim and that it is bad. Let's assume that it was a claim (and although I don't consider it a claim, I'm definitely the type of player that would do such a thing as town). Why is it scummy? Why is scum more likely to do it than town? I think it is a null tell. You have more mafia experience than me (if I recall correctly), and you have never had a townie say 'I'm town.'?

OK is there a summary of the case against PD somewhere? Because I'm not seeing anything hugely scummy from that iso. It could be because there isn't a lot there, but he doesn't seem particularly scummy from that.

You can see what I find scummy about PD on the last page (I think). I don't like iso. You should read his posts in context.

[kunkstar7]

@PD, I'm just going to use your own words to explain what I think of you putting me on your scum list.

Sorry, but its hard for me to defend myself when you don't even post a reason why you want to lynch me.

You mention absolutely no suspicion of me until this point.

And you asked me who I thought was Medix's partner if he was scum. I would have to say you and Kunk in that order.

Now, I can understand LS's FOS and Gayle's vote. They provided

something

to explain their suspicion. You are just going with the flow without providing any backing or input of your own. That I don't like.

About my comment when you entered the game Gayle, it partly has to do with another game you are in. I know my intention behind that comment, that's why I moved on to different material.

[pablito]

Vote Count

PatriotsDynasty09 (2): MichelSableheart, Gayle
Gayle (1): kunkstar7
Flareonage (1): almightybob
Kyiv (1): PatriotsDynasty09

Not Voting: Lastsurvivor, Flareonage, Kyiv, RandomMaster

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline on the 21st, which is just over 5 days away. At deadline, no majority means no lynch.

This means, get working! I will prod every 48 hrs from now until deadline. Feel free to request prods as well.

[almightybob]

Good points have been raised against PD which I have yet to see an adequate defence of, and a no lynch is bad times for Town, so

Unvote, Vote: PatriotsDynasty09

.

I'm still going back looking for more scum, but I would much rather lynch PD than nobody.

[PatriotsDynasty09]

Also, you still have your random vote on Kyiv, but yet you say that you are suspicious of Gayle, Michel and Kunk? Why are you keeping that random vote, if you are more suspicious of others?

At this point my vote is not necessary on Kyiv anymore so I will

Unvote

I will show you my vote at the end of this post.

Now, I can understand LS's FOS and Gayle's vote. They provided something to explain their suspicion. You are just going with the flow without providing any backing or input of your own. That I don't like.

@Random- I didn't answer your other question because I am going to answer it here.

Kunk, I did not say my reason that I have suspicion on you because its only suspicion. Right now I only have a gut feeling that you could be scum. When you use my words against me I don't think that that's valid because Gayle voted me and didn't give me any reasons why but I only had suspicion against you.

Alrite this will really hurt the chance of victory for we the town, but I have to roleclaim because I want to give time for everyone to rethink their votes so we are not forced into a "no lynch"

My roleclaim is that

I AM THE COP

.

Now for my vote: I am going to

Vote almightybob

These quotes really bug me:

Rereading PD just now, but off the top of my head I can't say he's struck me as hugely Town so I'll probably be OK with his lynch today.

I'm still going back looking for more scum, but I would much rather lynch PD than nobody.

He is saying that he doesn't find me scummy but he okay with my lynch. This is blatantly going with the flow, which scum can easily do without bringing too much attention to themselves.

Now knowing that we have a cop, a no lynch in this situation would not be a bad thing because I can get an investigation and the chances of lynching someone who's town is very high.

[Gayle]

You are lying. You are hoping to at least get a counterclaim if town doesn't by your story. Your reason for voting bob is weak. You are advocating a no lynch. You are scum.

[kunkstar7]

Kunk, I did not say my reason that I have suspicion on you because its only suspicion. Right now I only have a gut feeling that you could be scum. When you use my words against me I don't think that that's valid because Gayle voted me and didn't give me any reasons why but I only had suspicion against you.

Actually Gayle did give reasons so it is valid. He did mention suspicion of you without reason but in a following post justified it with more than a "gut feeling".

I'm okay lynching you because you have contributed little, you defended walrus out of nowhere, you spew the 'townies should not care about being lynched' garbage, you set a deadline for Medix to respond to you, you push for a policy lynch and then backpedal, and the fact that you've not questioned anyone or anything except for Medix.

PD

-PD needed justification for putting Medix at L-1, so he gave Medix a deadline.
-When LS called him out on rushing the the lynch, he essentially advocates a policy lynch.
-When LS explains that even if that is the case, there is no reason to rush the lynch, PD backs off.
-When LS questions about lynching a possible replacement, PD sets the groundwork for justifying the vote later.
-When LS asks him if town should only lynch those they believe to be scum, PD advocates a policy lynch again.

Now knowing that we have a cop, a no lynch in this situation would not be a bad thing because I can get an investigation and the chances of lynching someone who's town is very high.

A no-lynch is almost never favorable. How is the town supposed to get anywhere if they don't even use the one power we have? Even if you are the cop, your reasoning here is horrible. If you are cop you are dead, unless you are protected. Disregarding protection, we will not have a result in the morning anyway, so your asking for a no-lynch because you can get an investigation is pointless.

I really don't like PD's post here with the claim, so I'm really hesitant of believing it.

[PatriotsDynasty09]

To all Town,

When I am revealed to be the cop watch for Gayle and Kunk. Look how they disregard my claim.

And btw a no lynch is not always bad on Day 1, how does that make me scum? The chances of lynching scum on day 1 is 2/9, which is horrible percentage wise. This will also give me a chance to investigate someone so that we do not mislynch them or if I get lucky I can reveal someone as scum.

[Gayle]

town doesn't b

u

y your story

Had to fix that.

Also, you still have your random vote on Kyiv, but yet you say that you are suspicious of Gayle, Michel and Kunk? Why are you keeping that random vote, if you are more suspicious of others?

@Random- I didn't answer your other question because I am going to answer it here.

But you still didn't answer it.

Alrite this will really hurt the chance of victory for we the town, but I have to roleclaim because I want to give time for everyone to rethink their votes so we are not forced into a "no lynch"
[...]
Now knowing that we have a cop, a no lynch in this situation would not be a bad thing because I can get an investigation and the chances of lynching someone who's town is very high.

Contradicting yourself.

He is saying that he doesn't find me scummy but he is okay with my lynch. This is blatantly going with the flow, which scum can easily do without bringing too much attention to themselves.

You essentially did the same think by pushing for a policy lynch. In this, though, bob explained that other players have brought up good points against you and that he wants to avoid a no lynch. Those were his reasons for a vote.

Now knowing that we have a cop, a no lynch in this situation would not be a bad thing

A no lynch in this situation can

only

be a bad thing. Scum still gets a kill, and we would be letting possible scum live.

because I can get an investigation

Kunk already explained this

and the chances of lynching someone who's town is very high.

Not if we lynch

you

.

[PatriotsDynasty09]

Alrite this will really hurt the chance of victory for we the town, but I have to roleclaim because I want to give time for everyone to rethink their votes so we are not forced into a "no lynch"
[...]
Now knowing that we have a cop, a no lynch in this situation would not be a bad thing because I can get an investigation and the chances of lynching someone who's town is very high.

Contradicting yourself.

The first one I said "forced into a NL." The second one I was inferring that we would have a choice in the matter.

He is saying that he doesn't find me scummy but he is okay with my lynch. This is blatantly going with the flow, which scum can easily do without bringing too much attention to themselves.

You essentially did the same think by pushing for a policy lynch. In this, though, bob explained that other players have brought up good points against you and that he wants to avoid a no lynch. Those were his reasons for a vote.

But its still going with the flow, is it not? And with the policy lynch you would do the same thing if you were in any of our situations.

because I can get an investigation

Kunk already explained this

There is a 1/2 percent chance that we have a doctor. I am willing to take that chance.

and the chances of lynching someone who's town is very high.

Not if we lynch

you

.

No because I am town like I said before

[Gayle]

When I am revealed to be the cop watch for Gayle and Kunk. Look how they disregard my claim.

I disregard your claim, because it is a ridiculously obvious lie.

And btw a no lynch is not always bad on Day 1, how does that make me scum? The chances of lynching scum on day 1 is 2/9, which is horrible percentage wise.

Except our lynch is not totally random. We vote for the player with the greatest chance to be scum. In this case,

you

. And reading your posts, that chance is 100%. Where is the good in letting possible scum live and therefore guaranteeing the survival of both scum, which in turn guarantees a least one scum on day 3? You say you can find scum with an investigation. What if you are night killed? What if you investigate a townie?

This will also give me a chance to investigate someone so that we do not mislynch them or if I get lucky I can reveal someone as scum.

In F11, scum can't investigate.

Reiterating that if there is a real cop, they should not claim.

[PatriotsDynasty09]

When I am revealed to be the cop watch for Gayle and Kunk. Look how they disregard my claim.

I disregard your claim, because it is a ridiculously obvious lie.

That only way you could know that is if you were the cop and you're not because

I AM

.

And btw a no lynch is not always bad on Day 1, how does that make me scum? The chances of lynching scum on day 1 is 2/9, which is horrible percentage wise.

Except our lynch is not totally random. We vote for the player with the greatest chance to be scum. In this case,

you

. And reading your posts, that chance is 100%. Where is the good in letting possible scum live and therefore guaranteeing the survival of both scum, which in turn guarantees a least one scum on day 3? You say you can find scum with an investigation. What if you are night killed? What if you investigate a townie?

We are letting two scum live if you lynch me. And you ARE guaranteeing that one scum lives to day 3 if you lynch me. If I get NK'd then so be it, at least we didn't lynch the cop on day 1. If I investigate a townie then I'll reveal that and then we won't ever mislynch them.

This will also give me a chance to investigate someone so that we do not mislynch them or if I get lucky I can reveal someone as scum.

In F11, scum can't investigate.

I know that but I am a pro-town sane cop, so I can investigate.

[Gayle]

The first one I said "forced into a NL." The second one I was inferring that we would have a choice in the matter.

In this situation, a no lynch is bad whether we do it by choice or not.

But its still going with the flow, is it not? And with the policy lynch you would do the same thing if you were in any of our situations.

Explain how bob's play is worse than your play. Explain why bob is the best lynch for town.

There is a 1/2 percent chance that we have a doctor. I am willing to take that chance.

If you are scum that means the doctor wasted their night action on mafia.

[Gayle]

That only way you could know that is if you were the cop and you're not because

I AM

.

I

know

it is a lie because your earlier play shows this to me.

We are letting two scum live if you lynch me. And you ARE guaranteeing that one scum lives to day 3 if you lynch me. If I get NK'd then so be it, at least we didn't lynch the cop on day 1. If I investigate a townie then I'll reveal that and then we won't ever mislynch them.

Scum already know who all the townies are. You could just claim to have investigated a townie.

[PatriotsDynasty09]

The first one I said "forced into a NL." The second one I was inferring that we would have a choice in the matter.

In this situation, a no lynch is bad whether we do it by choice or not.

I've said why its not but you said I was contradicting myself and I was proving why I wasn't

But its still going with the flow, is it not? And with the policy lynch you would do the same thing if you were in any of our situations.

Explain how bob's play is worse than your play. Explain why bob is the best lynch for town.

He is the best choice for the lynch because he tried not to bring much attention to himself by voting me and just saying "He is not acting scummy, but I don't want a no lynch". He is just going with the flow.

When I was pushing for the lynch on Medix, I had my own reasons and I didn't just say Player X had good points so I'm voting for Medix.

There is a 1/2 percent chance that we have a doctor. I am willing to take that chance.

If you are scum that means the doctor wasted their night action on mafia.

But I'm not scum so it is not a waste

[Gayle]

@PD:
Imagine this situation: An intensely scummy player claims cop. He advocates a no lynch, which could help scum. He advocates the doctor protect him, which could help scum. He could claim to have investigated a townie on day 2, and it would be hard to prove that he is not the cop without a counterclaim. But a counterclaim only helps scum. Is that player not the best lynch?

Also, earlier you said 'Townies should not care about being lynched'. If you are town, surely you are willing to be lynched to help town learn of the truth of your claims?

[PatriotsDynasty09]

@PD:
Imagine this situation: An intensely scummy player claims cop. He advocates a no lynch, which could help scum. He advocates the doctor protect him, which could help scum. He could claim to have investigated a townie on day 2, and it would be hard to prove that he is not the cop without a counterclaim. But a counterclaim only helps scum. Is that player not the best lynch?

1. Your biggest argument against me is that I was pushing a policy in which others were doing so too. What made you single me out?

2. Like I've said 1000 times a no lynch is not always a bad thing, it depends on what happens during the night.

3. Well since I know that I am the cop, a cc would help because then I would know who is scum.

So no I am

NOT

the best lynch

Also, earlier you said 'Townies should not care about being lynched'. If you are town, surely you are willing to be lynched to help town learn of the truth of your claims?

Townies as in Vanilla Townies. Why would power roles not care about being lynched?

[Kyiv]

Now knowing that we have a cop, a no lynch in this situation would not be a bad thing because I can get an investigation and the chances of lynching someone who's town is very high.

Now that's a scummy statement if I ever saw one.

PD, assuming that you are the cop, what was your reason for claiming at L-2, with 4 days until deadline? Also assuming that you are the cop, what is your case on AlmightyBob, other than OMGUS?

[PatriotsDynasty09]

PD, assuming that you are the cop, what was your reason for claiming at L-2, with 4 days until deadline? Also assuming that you are the cop, what is your case on AlmightyBob, other than OMGUS?

I said my reason for claiming when I did. If I claimed at L-1 and 1-2 days left until deadline, it would either 'force' us into a no lynch or we would lynch someone randomly and pray that they were scum.

I really don't see any OMGUS in my case against AB. AB just is going with the flow with no reasons to input, just that he is agreeing with "all" of the reasons against me. He is doing this so that he does not get much attention towards him and he can lay back while I get lynched.

[almightybob]

Mkay, here's how I see it:

If PD is telling the truth

- he has just rendered himself useless. If there is no Doc, he will be NKed tonight. If there is a Doc, that would mean the Mafia have a Roleblocker, and so he will be roleblocked and get no investigation results.

If PD is lying

- we might have a cop, who will be considering whether to counterclaim right now. Even though you know he is scum, I would say to that cop do not counterclaim.


Frankly, the claim seems implausible. To me the unprompted cop claim complete with OMGUS does seem like a scum reaction. Especially the no-lynch recommendation does not sit well with me.
A no-lynch is

emphatically

not the correct Town play, even if we 'choose' it. This is a matter of maths, not opinion.

Assuming all mislynches, D1 lynch

-
D1 mislynch (6 Townies, 2 scum left)
N1 kill (5 Townies, 2 scum left)
D2 mislynch (4 Townies, 2 scum left)
N2 kill (3 Townies, 2 scum left)
D3 we are in LyLo.

Assuming all mislynches, D1 no lynch

-
D1 no lynch (7 Townies, 2 scum left)
N1 kill (6 Townies, 2 scum left)
D2 mislynch (5 Townies, 2 scum left)
N2 kill (4 Townies, 2 scum left)
D3 we are in LyLo, but with one extra Townie which means a 33% chance of lynching correctly instead of a 40% chance in the above situation.

So you see, we gain nothing from no-lynching. In a Newbie game it can

only

hurt Town.

I'm not buying it. Vote stays.