Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[SerialClergyman]

I have ot admit I tend to just throw up my hands when I read some of DLA's posts, but we're getting to the pointy end of the game so I can't afford to keep being complacent.

I am stunned that DLA is voting between myself and Kise. It seems to me to show an inconsistent view of the game. But then this recent vote wasn't opportunistic - a case wasn't really rising against me or anything like that. So the only benefit it could have had is if he's partners with Kise, but then if he's partners with Kise why isn't he pushing Hewitt, and why was he voting Kise for a while there?

I don't think it's necessarily scummy but I have no idea what th thought processes are. Expand on your vote please.

Also Ellibereth, you promised some content a while ago and are posting in other games, your input is valued.

And Budja, we neeeed your full reread and explanations for your thoughts ASAP. We're approaching deadline and what you've given us is noteworthy only in it's lack of noteworthyness.

farside, while we wait for this stuff, could you expand on your DLA/Kise theory? What makes you link them together, even after DLA was voting Kise for a fair portion of the day?

[SerialClergyman]

I have ot admit I tend to just throw up my hands when I read some of DLA's posts, but we're getting to the pointy end of the game so I can't afford to keep being complacent.

I am stunned that DLA is voting between myself and Kise. It seems to me to show an inconsistent view of the game. But then this recent vote wasn't opportunistic - a case wasn't really rising against me or anything like that. So the only benefit it could have had is if he's partners with Kise, but then if he's partners with Kise why isn't he pushing Hewitt, and why was he voting Kise for a while there?

I don't think it's necessarily scummy but I have no idea what th thought processes are. Expand on your vote please.

Also Ellibereth, you promised some content a while ago and are posting in other games, your input is valued.

And Budja, we neeeed your full reread and explanations for your thoughts ASAP. We're approaching deadline and what you've given us is noteworthy only in it's lack of noteworthyness.

farside, while we wait for this stuff, could you expand on your DLA/Kise theory? What makes you link them together, even after DLA was voting Kise for a fair portion of the day?

[DarkLightA]

DLA why did you vote for kise when you said you believe him to be bored town?

I was hooolding my vote at that time, but later decided to join the BW for added pressure.

Currently I'm convinced of everyone but SC and Scigatt as town, but I think there has to be one of the "townies" that is scum, as I don't think a SC Scigatt pair works.

[Ellibereth]

Meh, Sorry. >.< I've been looking through Hewitt's games without drawing any real conclusions yet...all I can say is that emotional outbursts are not indicative of town for him at all...
Do none of you guys find the beginning stats Saber put up worrying at all? It keeps coming to me that it seems so ridiculously anti-saber to do something like that.

[farside22]

Meh, Sorry. >.< I've been looking through Hewitt's games without drawing any real conclusions yet...all I can say is that emotional outbursts are not indicative of town for him at all...
Do none of you guys find the beginning stats Saber put up worrying at all? It keeps coming to me that it seems so ridiculously anti-saber to do something like that.

All I can think of is his last game I was in with him. No one really looked his way and he voted for his mason partner thinking he was scum. I would have read again to see if an argument spurred from that.


@SC: DLA had been talking about voting for hewitt at the start. It wasn't till more votes were placed on Kise that he switched his vote for no reason. I could see this as scum bussing.

[Ellibereth]

he voted for his mason partner thinking he was scum

What? Saber or hewitt? I don't get it...

[farside22]

he voted for his mason partner thinking he was scum

What? Saber or hewitt? I don't get it...

Hewitt. This was in M/M game that just ended. Hewitt was town in that game and there was a chance that a m/m could have been scum.

[farside22]

I'm a bit busy on the weekends but this is the game I'm referring to: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12539

[Kise]

Everyone but Scigatt has placed a vote on me today

I was concerned about that post of yours Ellibereth because kiku caught a load of crap for hammering Neto without additional content in her post.

[Ojanen]

I'll respond here either in a bit if I'm awake or tomorrow morning (it's late in Europe), but Kise, could you tell more exactly in which way SC feels different to you compared to the large theme you mentioned?

[Ojanen]

But those bad feelings [about DLA] still linger?

Yeeeeees. Why do you ask?

Because this turn of phrase+lingering bad feel doesn't feel genuine:

His opinions come across as genuine (from the heart) and not from the mindset of scum wanting to meet their objective hastily.

You're uncomfortable with public trust, so... I should stick to it no matter what and not give a possibility for reevaluation?
This makes zero sense, it's in fact a contradiction.

There are 2 goons, 1 mason, and 5 vanilla townies left. The VT's don't know who's town. The mason has no one to talk to. The goons will be the only two working together in some way to get this day how they want it. So with 2 goons confirmed to each other and 6 town who don't know each other, do you now see why I have questioned the way you're riding beside SC often?

Oh, that's clear (although not what I was replying to), but I'll tell you what is reads as.
I have had a townread on Serial since catchup, he expressed one on me after my Neto case. We have both also separately expressed townreads to other people. Serial is convinced Scigatt is town, for example. I have a bucketload of inflation suffering townreads.
Now, there seems to be something quite obviously friendly between me and him, and there's very obviously some meta right since my first post where I apologize for getting in a game with him again. This type of obvious friendliness in thread has absolutely no added benefit to scumbuddies. Obvious and unnecessary relation of some kind. You jumping on it continually and repeatedly reducing the answer makes me question your motives, since it's an easy thing to see yet actual motives for scum-scum would seem null, in most cases almost something to intuitively shy away from.

Also I don't see your reason to call it only towards me and serial, you don't seem to have a problem with my other loony townreads.

Your townreads shouldn't be loony if you really believe in them.

That was self-ironical language, they aren't loony to me.

It's weird that you don't suspect/vote me until SC does. Of course this is going to stick out to me because you're picking sides essentially.

I'm pretty sure that is factually false but I'm too tired to check.

You said it was suspicious we were both pestering you for content. I say it's undisputably pro-town to pester content from a near blank slot.

Or scum going for easy pickings because they know the blank spot won't bark back. Probably would have turned into a lurker-lynch down the road (not that I disagree with lynching lurkers before lylo).

Well, if you're gonna make the convenience argument then I say first that it's much easier to make good-looking arguments on people who were present and had a positive relation to Neto (if I was scum with Serial there would be targets like DLA and Budja to pick on D2 and today).
And second it did take you the whole game day, and certifiably also dead town among others asked you for content, so it's hard to see how the 2 of us also pestering you makes us look like scumbuddies to you.

none of your reads ringing true at all springs you to the scummiest person alive.

So because you have town reads on hewitt and SC, etc., mine is wrong?

No. The argumentation hasn't rang townish to me. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean they're scummy.

Noone feels like scum .

OJ, during day 1, what was it that made you think your vote on Neto put him at L-1?

I don't understand this question.
I remember putting the third vote on Neto and have never thought I put him to L-1.

Meh, Sorry. >.< I've been looking through Hewitt's games without drawing any real conclusions yet...all I can say is that emotional outbursts are not indicative of town for him at all...
Do none of you guys find the beginning stats Saber put up worrying at all? It keeps coming to me that it seems so ridiculously anti-saber to do something like that.

On hewitt, I haven't reread to see the tone but I remember him as having these big fights with White Castle in Open 131 as town (should be in my wiki). I have, as you know, some doubts about Saber but I'm not sure what we can do with a hopelessly empty slot currently.

That's some simple answering. I'll get back in this more tomorrow. Uncertainty clouds are painful.

BUUUUDJAAAAAA... we need you.

[Kise]

I'll pull it up in a second. There was this fiasco D1 when Serial wouldn't vote for Neto because he thought he was at L-1. You were flying across the world and I-I-I-I, I can't find my baby. DLA heckled SC about not voting and he was waiting for you to post before "hammering." Dramo does a votecount later on and it's revealed Neto was only at L-2.

Gimme a sec.

[Kise]

Hmm, nevermind. DLA was the one who said he put Neto at L-2, then saber was supposedly L-1, and SC waited for you to post again before he went ahead and voted. dramonic came in 2 pages later to say it wasn't a hammer.

[Kise]

Because this turn of phrase+lingering bad feel doesn't feel genuine:

His opinions come across as genuine (from the heart) and not from the mindset of scum wanting to meet their objective hastily.

Did you miss the part where I said I don't favor his playstyle?

Oh, that's clear (although not what I was replying to), but I'll tell you what is reads as.
I have had a townread on Serial since catchup

That hasn't change in the slightest, or are you choosing not to change it?

he expressed one on me after my Neto case. We have both also separately expressed townreads to other people. Serial is convinced Scigatt is town, for example. I have a bucketload of inflation suffering townreads.

Don't let Serial tell you who's town. You be the judge.

Now, there seems to be something quite obviously friendly between me and him, and there's very obviously some meta right since my first post where I apologize for getting in a game with him again. This type of obvious friendliness in thread has absolutely no added benefit to scumbuddies.

You both attacked kiku, you both rallied for Shotty's death, you've defended SC at times, and I don't think I've seen you two disagree on matters up until today's phase [QT talking].

That was self-ironical language, they aren't loony to me.

So who are they looney to, then? I never commented on your townreads -- to each his own.

It's weird that you don't suspect/vote me until SC does. Of course this is going to stick out to me because you're picking sides essentially.

I'm pretty sure that is factually false but I'm too tired to check.

Nah, SC voted for me and you waited about a week IRL before voting me. I've pretty much been your only scumread today IIRC.

And second it did take you the whole game day, and certifiably also dead town among others asked you for content, so it's hard to see how the 2 of us also pestering you makes us look like scumbuddies to you.

You and SC pioneered it though. Everyone else stayed busy with scumhunting whereas SC kept reminding everyone I wasn't present.

none of your reads ringing true at all springs you to the scummiest person alive.

So because you have town reads on hewitt and SC, etc., mine is wrong?

No. The argumentation hasn't rang townish to me. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean they're scummy.

Wait what!? You didn't say my reads weren't townish initially. You said they weren't true. Now I have to question how you know about truth when, in fact, you're saying 7 out of 8 players here are likely town.(?) If you're saying I'm not true/townish (to you, meaning this is a relative fallacy), then elaborate on an example of what it is I'm doing that's not true/townish so I can understand your view.

[SerialClergyman]

Not to step in for Ojanen, but she has if not a scum read at least a more-negative-than-neutral read on Scigatt, which is our main point of disagreement.

If you think we're scum together, why does it matter which one of us voted you first?

[Kise]

Because she's following you. I don't see you following her, on the contrary. (I'm still stuck on when Albert called you the mastermind of any team)

[Kise]

'Follow' may or may not be the right word to use, but that's how I feel.

[dramonic]

The Twentyfourth Votecount: pif paf kerplonk

Budja (3): Elli, Kise, Farside
Kise (2): Ojanen, Serial
SC (1): DLA

Not Voting (2): Budja, Scigatt

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is the 23th at 23:59!

I am currently seeking replacement for Scigatt...

[Budja]

Feh, I'm back. (..and ready for some "fun" reading I guess).

[Ojanen]

Oh, that's clear (although not what I was replying to), but I'll tell you what is reads as.
I have had a townread on Serial since catchup

That hasn't change in the slightest, or are you choosing not to change it?

Yes, it has been downgraded as I have said due to too many people looking town.
Sigh. I still do think he's probably town based on his play. I don't have a great scummeta from him - in all our ended games he's been town - but I've read scumplay from him to get a feel for what he's like. I wish I had more intensive scummeta. But his play and ideas still do feel like his town self here.

Kise, I'd really appreciate your answer on this one:

Kise, could you tell more exactly in which way SC feels different to you compared to the large theme you mentioned?

he expressed one on me after my Neto case. We have both also separately expressed townreads to other people. Serial is convinced Scigatt is town, for example. I have a bucketload of inflation suffering townreads.

Don't let Serial tell you who's town. You be the judge.

I'm not letting him tell me who's town. Your picture of me abandoning independent thought does not mirror the reality of what has been said in the thread.

Now, there seems to be something quite obviously friendly between me and him, and there's very obviously some meta right since my first post where I apologize for getting in a game with him again. This type of obvious friendliness in thread has absolutely no added benefit to scumbuddies.

You both attacked kiku, you both rallied for Shotty's death, you've defended SC at times, and I don't think I've seen you two disagree on matters up until today's phase [QT talking].

I've defended a lot of people at times (DLA, Budja, reads that I'm now also questioning more).
farside, kiku, Elli, Scigatt, DLA also rallied for Shotty's death (I'd say I was a minor player in that, also, which is not a townish thing but the access was stopping me.)
DLA and Shotty also attacked kiku. I had kiku as a scummy read since my very first content, that's not following.
The significance of QT talking baffles me since we would have both been in the game already on N1, and we didn't agree on everything D1.
Do you see why you cherrypicking us gives me the impression on it being based on us knowing each other?

It's weird that you don't suspect/vote me until SC does. Of course this is going to stick out to me because you're picking sides essentially.

I'm pretty sure that is factually false but I'm too tired to check.

Nah, SC voted for me and you waited about a week IRL before voting me. I've pretty much been your only scumread today IIRC.

Nah, if you talk about suspicion of you, check my posts. I had you as no.2 already before anyone else had posted on D3. It's a little hard to do much about Scigatt slot which used to be no.1 when it's empty and it's a really mixed read. Vote is true, I did infact only lay down my first vote long into the day.

Wait what!? You didn't say my reads weren't townish initially. You said they weren't true. Now I have to question how you know about truth when, in fact, you're saying 7 out of 8 players here are likely town.(?) If you're saying I'm not true/townish (to you, meaning this is a relative fallacy), then elaborate on an example of what it is I'm doing that's not true/townish so I can understand your view.

I said they didn't

ring true

.
ESL and all, I googled the meaning of this idiom now to see if I had miscommunicated and one of them was

to seem to be accurate or sincere

. I meant that, townish thought processes and so on.
I'll elaborate later.
Yeah, 6 out of 8 seem significantly townish to me and that tells me I'm very probably significantly wrong on someone, unless is Kise-Scigatt but naw... I just can't find clearly who.

I need to think about this game a little, feeling meh again.
I remember being crap at looking for pairs (the time when I correctly pinpointed that the 2 mafiosos are inside these 3 people and switched to the wrong one based on pairings put me off it, lol) but I think I should try it, maybe I've gotten better.

Because she's following you. I don't see you following her, on the contrary. (I'm still stuck on when Albert called you the mastermind of any team)

Serial followed me on the Neto momentum, for example, and we don't agree on everything. I've got to say that would have been a pretty stupid thing to do upon replacing in was I scum with both of them, btw. Save the one with the massive, massive CSL baggage turning around the lynch to the majorly more presentable and townish seen Neto? But to each their own, I suppose.

[Budja]

I have to say, I'm not seeing Kise-scum.
Is there anything against him apart from his slot's major absence?
--
Do we know who the mason is?
(I obv. don't want a claim if we don't know)

[farside22]

I have to say, I'm not seeing Kise-scum.
Is there anything against him apart from his slot's major absence?
--
Do we know who the mason is?
(I obv. don't want a claim if we don't know)

We do not know who the mason is and I discussed in day 2 not to have a claim today of the last mason.

[SerialClergyman]

It's better not to discuss the mason - just have them claim if they are about to be lynched. Their claim in lylo will either give us a 50/50 (if there's a counter) or reduce the suspects by 1.

Budja, what posts are you using to get a town read on Kise? At the moment, you seem to not be up with current affairs because you didn't know the mason hadn't claimed, and the discussion about the mason claiming took part mostly BEFORE Kise started to post content at the end of D2.

Where are you in your re-read?

[Ojanen]

Serial, why were you salivating over the aspect of hammering on D1?

[Ojanen]

Err, prospect I mean.