Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[Kitten4u]

Sorry, been busy. I'll have a real post up tomorrow.

[Wickedestjr]

can you please explain your reasons?

Okay.

Firstly:

right now, no one strikes me as particularly scummy. It is only page 4, about 24 hours out of the RVS. But, if I had to lynch one person right now, it would be ConfidAnon. Something strikes me a little bit odd about how he attacked leaf for asking a question, and then saying we needed a bandwagon.

This seems rather convenient considering you had enough information to determine the case on Leaf was "complete crap" (Post 82) and that he was an innocent townie(Post 84). Its much easier to call somebody town then it is to call somebody scum.


Secondly:

It's not like any of us would let a lynch happen on Page 4, and he's nowhere close to a lynch.

Let's hope not. Why the bandwagon then?

This seems to contradict this:

Vote: My Milked Eek

*joins largest wagon in attempt to get us out of the RVS*

In the earlier quote you vote MME because you feel like wagoning to get out of the RVS, yet in the later quote, you seem to have a problem with a bandwagon that does form.


Thirdly:

I did not say asking the question made him pro-town. I said it did not make him scummy.

People were using that as a reason for their vote. I also did not say that asking the question means he is scum hunting.

I said I thought he was just taking it seriously and trying to hunt scum instead of joking around and doing nothing for the town

The bolded bit seems to contradictory with his previous posts. Earlier he said this:

How do you know Leaf is an innocent townie?

That's just my inference from his posts so far. He is just scumhunting.

So pman is of the belief that Leaf is scumhunting. However, pman's post where he says this, Leaf had only asked questions. If you don't believe me, look at Leaf in iso. His first 9 posts came before pman explained his town read. So, this indicates that pman either thinks asking questions is scumhunting which contradicts the bolded in the post above, or he is just making stuff up which means he's scum.


Fourthly:

Vote: Ellibereth

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If you aren't joking around... then my vote should really stay on you.

This just looks to me like a useless vote. He even tells Ellibereth what to do to make him unvote, so it doesn't look to me like a good example of a pressure vote. Also, the interesting thing is that if Ellibereth had stopped joking around, then pman would have unvoted. So, this implies that he wasn't actually suspicious, because if he thought Ellibereth's joking was scummy, then Ellibereth's joking coming to an end wouldn't be a good reason for townpman to unvote. So, if it is not a pressure vote and not a vote to represent a suspicion, it just looks like a vote designed to appear useful. It was a good move for pmanscum, because it allows him to:

*appear useful by trying to make Ellibereth contribute
*puts him in a position to either be suspicious of Ellibereth or not suspicious of Ellibereth, whenever he gets a good idea about what the town thinks


I'm not finished with this case.

[Wickedestjr]

Continuing on...

Point 5:

EBWOP: sorry here's what I was trying to submit

Gut should never be the only reason to think someone is mafia. If you cannot find any actual evidence that they are mafia, you should not target them

Bullshit

Vote: Ellibereth

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If you aren't joking around... then my vote should really stay on you.

I'm not joking.

then tell me your reasoning of the leafsnail vote. Please include something other than "gut".

pman says if Ellibereth wasn't joking then his vote should really stay on him. However, when Ellibereth says he wasn't joking, pman seems to give Ellibereth an opening to escape from the vote by making the above post.


Point 6:

Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?

No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.

No, you did say you were voting Ellibereth for joking in these quotes:

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If I could vote for you twice I would.

WE ARE OUT OF THE JOKING PERIOD

Stop contradicting yourself scum.


Point 7:

Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?

No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.

What happened to voting only when you thought people were scum?

your unexplained targeting of leaf gives me extremely scummy vibes.

pman pulls this point out of nowhere to show that he was voting for Elli because he thought he was scum. However, like I pointed out in my previous post, pman was willing to unvote Elli if she stopped JOKING, so obviously it wasn't a vote because he thought Elli was scum.


Point 8:

Ok, so stupid = scummy according to you right now, correct?

it depends on how they are acting stupidly

if they are acting stupidly by voting for someone with no reasoning, yes.

Voting with no reasoning suddenly indicates stupidity now, so conveniently enough, he can no pretend as if it was a part of his case.


Point 9:

If nobody could tell, I was being extremely sarcastic with that vote and the comments afterward, and they were meant to show Elli how annoying what he is doing is. unvote: Wickedestjr

Oh! So now Elli's voting without reason is annoying! I thought it was stupid or scummy! I must've forgotten that annoying=stupid. Silly me. Also, despite Elli's joking continuing on, you don't return your vote to him. Interesting.


I am 95% sure that pman is scum and we should lynch him.

[Wickedestjr]

Continuing on...

Point 5:

EBWOP: sorry here's what I was trying to submit

Gut should never be the only reason to think someone is mafia. If you cannot find any actual evidence that they are mafia, you should not target them

Bullshit

Vote: Ellibereth

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If you aren't joking around... then my vote should really stay on you.

I'm not joking.

then tell me your reasoning of the leafsnail vote. Please include something other than "gut".

pman says if Ellibereth wasn't joking then his vote should really stay on him. However, when Ellibereth says he wasn't joking, pman seems to give Ellibereth an opening to escape from the vote by making the above post.


Point 6:

Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?

No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.

No, you did say you were voting Ellibereth for joking in these quotes:

You obviously are still joking around. once you stop my vote comes off of you.

If I could vote for you twice I would.

WE ARE OUT OF THE JOKING PERIOD

Stop contradicting yourself scum.


Point 7:

Pman, I'M NOT JOKING.
And the original reason for your vote in 102 was because you thought I was joking, correct?

No, it was because you were (and are) acting stupidly. If the acting stupid was a joke, I would unvote when you stop. But you say the acting stupid is not a joke. That is an even better reason to vote for you. Give me good reasons that you are voting for leafsnail, or unvote if you cannot find any.

What happened to voting only when you thought people were scum?

your unexplained targeting of leaf gives me extremely scummy vibes.

pman pulls this point out of nowhere to show that he was voting for Elli because he thought he was scum. However, like I pointed out in my previous post, pman was willing to unvote Elli if she stopped JOKING, so obviously it wasn't a vote because he thought Elli was scum.


Point 8:

Ok, so stupid = scummy according to you right now, correct?

it depends on how they are acting stupidly

if they are acting stupidly by voting for someone with no reasoning, yes.

Voting with no reasoning suddenly indicates stupidity now, so conveniently enough, he can no pretend as if it was a part of his case.


Point 9:

If nobody could tell, I was being extremely sarcastic with that vote and the comments afterward, and they were meant to show Elli how annoying what he is doing is. unvote: Wickedestjr

Oh! So now Elli's voting without reason is annoying! I thought it was stupid or scummy! I must've forgotten that annoying=stupid. Silly me. Also, despite Elli's joking continuing on, you don't return your vote to him. Interesting.


I am 95% sure that pman is scum and we should lynch him.

[Oman]

Your lack of insight is uncharacteristic. Is that what an Oman scum-slip looks like?

Nope you and I fundamentally disagree on some theory points. It's neither here nor there really.

Are you saying that with the Elli/Kitten link we should lynch Kitten first because of the townie claim?

either will work, but we've already got a kitten claim. and worst case we lynch a townie.

Anyway, I really hope nobody makes me sift for quotes for this because it's L-1, but like I said: If kitten doesn't hang, then Elli should.

Unvote Vote: Elli

CoD!

[Leafsnail]

...Huh. I feel that Kitten has been let of the hook for not doing anything in particular. The only thing that saved her is Elli's vote flip, and I feel that some people have changed bandwagons opportunistically.

Don't like this justification. Wouldn't scum just as likely ignore questions they don't want to answer? Wouldn't town want to answer all the questions put to them to make sure people see their towness?

But when combined with the newbtells I've been getting off Ellibereth, it seems to point me towards town. Newb town has a tendancy to be useless like this while newbscum tends to aim to please more.

It's just that... well... I'm getting a sense of deja vu. Virtually every mafia game I've ever played has had a day one in which a newb has slipped up, acted stupid and got lynched for it, while the actual scum are ignored. A lot of Elli's behaviour reminds me of this. I suppose you could say he'd be a liability at lylo anyway, but this is null - lynching a town player, regardless of ability, puts us one mislynch closer to lylo.

Two important questions to those on the Ellibereth wagon -
1. Is Ellibereth your number one choice for a lynch (if you could pick anyone)? If not, who is?
2. If you switched over from another wagon, what did that person do to make themselves look more town in your eyes? If they didn't, are you going to continue pursuing them over it tomorrow?

[Ellibereth]

I actually agree that lynching me today wouldn't be the worst move in the world.
The only two realistic look lynches that look like they'll actually happen right now or Kitten and myself. I am pretty sure Kitten is town, and from a completely concrete point of view our lives are worth the same. Yes, I am claiming that I'm from Vermont.
Leafy, I do ask of you not to call me a newb and apply newbtown tells on me. I will assure you that I am not one and that I'm just a lazy person who goes completely on his gut D1 and does not like to type out cases.

Off the top of my head reads:
TOWN: Oman, Ythill, Kitten, Ctd, Wick
NULL: Sotty, Leaf, Pman, Eek
SCUM: Budja, Thesp

If either Budja or Thesp flip scum, I find the other very likely scum. My gut found the Confid - Thesp relationship this game different than the other game and I could feel more distancing coming this time.
If I'm wrong and Kitten flips scum later, Sotty is very likely scum with her.
Pman, Sotty leans more town than scum, but they're still in Nullland.
Leaf, Eek, leans more scum that town, but they're still in Nullland.
I'm not going to go type up a case on anyone now. But just to humor me:

Vote: Budja

even though it probably won't happen today. I hope you guys string him up after I go though.

I will be absent Fri-Sun AEST.
---
(Yes, I will post today before I leave tomorrow)

Lynch all Liars

[Leafsnail]

Eh, fair enough. I suppose "Obstructive town" could replace newbtown.

I still feel Elli to be town.

[Ellibereth]

Eh, fair enough. I suppose "Obstructive town" could replace newbtown.

I still feel Elli to be town.

Meh? The lack of comment of the more important parts of the post feels uncharacteristic of you.

[Leafsnail]

It's difficult to comment on suspicions which have no real cases behind them, to be honest. Seems sorta genuine, though.

[Ellibereth]

It's difficult to comment on suspicions which have no real cases behind them, to be honest. Seems sorta genuine, though.

Use your gut. Budja <-> Thesp relation, agree/disagree.

[Ythill]

Wick needs to take a seat in the hotseat if Elli flips scum. Otherwise, I'm open to look into pman more closely tomorrow. Two wagons is enough for today.

I feel that Kitten has been let of the hook for not doing anything in particular.

I was never interested in a kitten lynch although I did let you off the hook to pursue Elli. Are you going to complain about that?

Appeal to emotion noted... and Elli is obviously not a n00b. I can't even fathom why you'd say such a thing as town. Which people do you feel were being opportunist?

Please nobody hammer before kitten posts.

[Oman]

Also, can we get a claim, or did I miss something?

[Ellibereth]

I am pretty sure Kitten is town, and from a completely concrete point of view our lives are worth the same. Yes, I am claiming that I'm from Vermont.

Bad joke...I know. Vermont tis be Vt.

[Oman]

Oh right, I'm not American so I don't get that. Cheers.

[Wickedestjr]

So... what do you guys think about the case? I skimmed through and only one person had commented.

[Darkstrike_11]

Vote Count as of post 315

Ellibereth (6): [My Milked Eek, pman5595, Sotty7, Thesp, Ythill, Oman]
Kitten4u (2): [Leafsnail, CrashTextDummie]
Leafsnail (2): [Budja, Kitten4u]
pman5595 (1): [Wickedestjr]
Budja (1): [Ellibereth]

Not Voting:

With 12 Players, a majority of 7 is needed for a lynch.
Deadline is 10pm, 24th Jan 2010 (GMT)

[Ythill]

Sorry Wick, I did comment but it was very brief. I think the case makes sense to a certain degree and the first point is very valid, but you slipped in a lot of null points, semantics, and rhetoric. If you're really 95% sure he's scum, then you're seriously overreacting.

The reason I questioned your link to Elli in #311 was more for timing than content, FYI.

[Oman]

So... what do you guys think about the case? I skimmed through and only one person had commented.

I think it's far from the best lead we've got. It's based entirely on hypocricy for the most.

[Oman]

HEY EVERYONE! Even though I caleld you all smell yhippies. I still love you punks to death. Please don't think that I don't love you. I really do, we just dsee differently on things.

That and I'm a cunt.

Oh man, Thesp is gonna be angry about that one.

[Sotty7]

Don't like this justification. Wouldn't scum just as likely ignore questions they don't want to answer? Wouldn't town want to answer all the questions put to them to make sure people see their towness?

But when combined with the newbtells I've been getting off Ellibereth, it seems to point me towards town. Newb town has a tendancy to be useless like this while newbscum tends to aim to please more.

I have the opposite impression of Elli than you do. I doubt very much he is a newb, can you show me what these newbtells actually are?

I see you have changed your characterization of Elli to obstructive town now. If you concede that he is no longer a newb, where are you still cutting him slack?

I'm breezing though right now but I will read Wick's case on pnman this afternoon.

[pman5595]

Wicked, I'll respond to your case on me asap, have to go know, just know that I've read it.

[My Milked Eek]

My announced V/LA will be over this Wednesday. Thank you so much for your understanding and patience.

[Thesp]

...Huh. I feel that Kitten has been let of the hook for not doing anything in particular.

I feel that Kitten has been let off the hook because Ellibereth is more likely to be scum.

Vote: Budja even though it probably won't happen today. I hope you guys string him up after I go though.

I'm down with that.

Wick needs to take a seat in the hotseat if Elli flips scum. Otherwise, I'm open to look into pman more closely tomorrow. Two wagons is enough for today.

Agreed.

So... what do you guys think about the case? I skimmed through and only one person had commented.

I'm having a hard time not skimming it each time I go to read it. I'm happy to re-read him during the night. I don't remember him standing out very much (which could be a sign you're right, but I will look later).

I'm totally supportive of an Ellibereth hammer, though I am respectful of Ythill's request for this to wait until Kitten4u has posted. I wouldn't mind waiting for My Milked Eek, Budja and pman5595 to weigh in a bit more, but I'm not interested in tarrying until deadline.

[Kitten4u]

Still busy. Quick post incoming.

---

This is my problem. You only did it in order to try and get some suspicion off you

I was just answering your question.

But it applies no pressure and tells you nothing to vaguely say something is "disingenuous". You made no specific allegations and it didn't contribute to your weak attack at all.

So you admit it was an attack.

I never said that he didn't. but you're doing it again. I'm saying you're scummy for this, and you're trying to pass it off to someone else.

What makes me worse than Leaf then?

Firstly there is the General CTD issue, not any specific quotes, but Kitten was very light on him, until he started fighting back he went from just "weird" to "scummy".

They're synonymous in Kitten Language.

I have a hard time not skimming walls when replying. I read them once, but replying point-by-point is a drain on town resources.

That's fine. I was more interested in hearing from the people that said I was using craplogic.

---

Wicked's case is okay imo. It addresses some of the things I was worried about when I said that I had a weak scum read on pman (most notably the Leaf being an "innocent townie" stuff), but I think that he's over reacting on some thing (the early Elli vote comes to mind, it was early in the day so no votes are really throw away at that point imo).

I still prefer a Leaf lynch at this point, but I'm not against an Elli one.

I have to go now, but I *might* be back on later.