Mini 897 - OpenSource Mafia - Game over!!

[SocioPath]

I see no reason not to claim. I'm a miller. Since my rolename is also scumtastic, here's the (paraphrased) flavour -
I'm a CrApple User. I'm too lazy to switch to Linux, even though I think it's awesome. And at least CrApple's better than WinBlows.

My role PM strongly led me to believe that the town is broadly Linux, and that WinBlows are scum. I could understand if there were two large alignments, Linux and WinBlows, but it would clash with my pm if Crapple was a large alignment (unless, perhaps, it was a scum alignment).

I think that was the other one I was thinking of, although not nearly as confirming as GM's posts.

[Faraday]

Eh, I don't see fishy's posts as saying he can be converted. Idk, it's possible but the fact it says he's too lazy in it seems to make it likely he won't switch unless he's converted? Not that he wants to be.

[SocioPath]

I'm not panicked. I just really hate being lynched. (As I assume does everyone).

There are some that glorify their own lynch.

The only ones that care about being lynched for the sake of being lynched, are those with self serving win conditions.
And at this point, at BEST, I see you as a Survivor.

[SocioPath]

Eh, I don't see fishy's posts as saying he can be converted. Idk, it's possible but the fact it says he's too lazy in it seems to make it likely he won't switch unless he's converted? Not that he wants to be.

These are far more informative:

It is NOT a scum claim. However, based on the flavor and rules text of my role PM, I believe S_B's ability, if it actually exists, will function on me.

Then, may I assume you are third party and want your alignment changed to town?

Because, as far as I can tell, s_b's ability will change your alignment completely, regardless of what you start at.

Not exactly. Perhaps I am interpreting the rhetoric "alignment change" differently then you based on the information I have. I win with the town, but I am currently stuck using the suck that is WinBlows. I would like to convert to the greatness that is Linux. That is what I suspect S_B may be able to do.

Or I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

You have to be converted before you can win, correct?

My role PM doesn't explicitly say that. It merely says WinBlows sucks and it would be much cooler if I were using Linux. I inferred from this that something good for me and/or the town would happen if I was converted. It could just be flavor, but given S_B's role, I don't think that's the case.

Hmm... I'm not sure. Your reasons may be right, but what if I turn you to scum?

I don't know the precise rules text and flavor of your role so I'm not sure exactly what will happen, but a town-->scum switch doesn't really seem to fit with the flavor of the game. It would make significantly more sense for each faction to be attempting to recruit players to its side, especially given what my role PM says. Do what you think is best, though.

In any case, though, I'm afraid this debacle is destracting us from scumhunting. Let's not let all the discussion focus on this one particular issue.

Fun fact: Vaya still hasn't posted. I like my current vote.

[Faraday]

I'm not panicked. I just really hate being lynched. (As I assume does everyone).

There are some that glorify their own lynch.

The only ones that care about being lynched for the sake of being lynched, are those with self serving win conditions.
And at this point, at BEST, I see you as a Survivor.

Um? Everyone should want to avoid being lynched unless their a jester. Anyone townie content with being lynched or who doesn't try their hardest not to be lynched are quite frankly stupid.

The fact is from my perspective my lynch leads to dead town, I don't see why not wanting that is a bad thing. The town are more likely to lose everytime they lynch one of their own, seriously going down not trying is useless.

[Faraday]

These are far more informative:

Agreed, but it doesn't seem as if that's what Snow or Phate do if I'm reading this rightly.

[SocioPath]

Um? Everyone should want to avoid being lynched unless their a jester. Anyone townie content with being lynched or who doesn't try their hardest not to be lynched are quite frankly stupid.

The fact is from my perspective my lynch leads to dead town, I don't see why not wanting that is a bad thing. The town are more likely to lose everytime they lynch one of their own, seriously going down not trying is useless.

You can prevent your own lynch without self serving flailing.
'OMG POM IS SCUM! THAT IS SOLID!' is not pro-town flailing.

[Faraday]

Um? Everyone should want to avoid being lynched unless their a jester. Anyone townie content with being lynched or who doesn't try their hardest not to be lynched are quite frankly stupid.

The fact is from my perspective my lynch leads to dead town, I don't see why not wanting that is a bad thing. The town are more likely to lose everytime they lynch one of their own, seriously going down not trying is useless.

You can prevent your own lynch without self serving flailing.
'OMG POM IS SCUM! THAT IS SOLID!' is not pro-town flailing.

I've been saying she was scum for ages now It's not like I just came up with it.

I was sarcastically pointing out your solid points weren't very solid, so yeah, I'll keep 'flailing' I guess.

[SocioPath]

I've been saying she was scum for ages now It's not like I just came up with it.

But unless you are scum with her, her 'being scum' IS NOT SOLID.
You claiming a previously unmentioned company name IS SOLID.
Its a FACT.

I was sarcastically pointing out your solid points weren't very solid, so yeah, I'll keep 'flailing' I guess.

You have 2 votes on you.
2 recent votes.
Many have posted.
2 have voted for you.
There are 2 wagons currently larger than yours.
Your amount of self centered attention whoring is very much so, 'flailing'.

[Fishythefish]

So, ITT we have three cop-type roles. Two of them are identical for different OS's, one of them is completley different.

unvote, vote: Faraday

[Faraday]

So why are the two identical roles more likely to be the same alignment?

[Faraday]

@ sociopath. You're not using FACTS to discern my alignment though, it's your assumptions based on those FACTS. Solid =/= fact btw, so I don't see why I have to be scum with pom to say the case is SOLID.

Thanks for capitalising those words btw, made it a much easier read for me @ 4am

Hey SOCIO thanks for stating how many votes I had on me, I thought Phate was voting me too, but people have indiciated a willingness to switch to me.

You've already said or implied town can flail I'd really like to know the difference, although it's probably GUT or some such, either way I call bullshit. Town have as much want to not be lynched as anyone else.

[Glork]

I just read his whole claimy thing, and I need to think. It seems to me that there are probably 3-4 players of each "alignment." I would guess that one from each group can convert other players their alignment (a la Snow_Bunny). Another can probably identify others' current alignments to some degree (although the Guilty/Innocent nature makes this... difficult). I'm willing to bet that at least one alignment has a role that can kill other players (else I'd be hard-pressed to call this Mafia of any kind). There are also likely some vanilla sympathizers.

I'm tempted to suggest no-lynching and seeing if we can "convert" everyone to the same group. My only concern with that is that, once one group had a majority of players, then everyone left out of the loop would be "endgamed."

Okay, I am increasingly confident that my first paragraph here is correct: We have a few Linux, a few CrApple, and a few WinBlows players, each of which thinks they are protown. My guess was (and still is) that each OS is of identical composition, mostly for balance's sake.

I also think that -- at the very least -- everyone without Linux is some kind of Miller, so we're going to see a lot of "guilties" in this game. My guess is that the cop-roles will get innocents on people of the same OS and guilties on everyone else.

I'm a WinBlows Loyalist, and my role PM also cites me as winning with the town. No special abilities to speak of. If we're going with the "convert everyone we can to Linux" route via Snow_Bunny, I suppose you can sign me up for that list.


I'm not really sure what to say about Faraday, since he seems to be sticking to his Google claim, which doesn't fit in with any of this. I have three theories on this.
1) We really

are

all protown, and the OS thing is all one giant red herring. This actually sounds pretty plausible. If that's the case, Google doesn't fit in with the innocents, Faraday is some kind of Mafia OS Cop, and we need to lynch him.
2) Each OS is a cult whose members were led to believe they were protown. Google et al are genuine OS-less townies, and they're going to be victimized or converted.
3) Each OS is a cult whose members were led to believe they were protown, there's a mafia (which includes FaradayGoogle), and there's not actually a real town.
(Off-Record and out-of-game, I am partial to option 1, because I think it would be by far the most creative form of bastardity. And yes, I just made that a word.)


That said, I think Faraday is probably the safest and most appropriate lynch today. The only problem with the partial reveal is that there's a very strong chance he'll flip "guilty" no matter what, and we'll be unable to confirm or deny anything he has or will say.

Vote: Faraday

[Snow_Bunny]

Unvote, vote: Faraday

Good points on the Google thing. Also, we can't forget previous acts done by JL.

Also, if you notice, there has been 4 OS claimed (Linux, WinBlows, crApple and DOS), not three, which weighs in more. Google just don't fit it.

[Iecerint]

I also think that -- at the very least -- everyone without Linux is some kind of Miller, so we're going to see a lot of "guilties" in this game. My guess is that the cop-roles will get innocents on people of the same OS and guilties on everyone else.

Why do you think Fishy was told he was a Miller, then?

[Glork]

I also think that -- at the very least -- everyone without Linux is some kind of Miller, so we're going to see a lot of "guilties" in this game. My guess is that the cop-roles will get innocents on people of the same OS and guilties on everyone else.

Why do you think Fishy was told he was a Miller, then?

That's why I said "at the very least." Having been reminded of that detail, I suppose everyone with an OS is a miller. I'd bet money that you are.

[Iecerint]

It's possible that I'm like a Miller for at least some Cops, as you indicate, but I doubt I'm one in the general case. No indication in my role PM, and I'm associated with GNU.

[Glork]

Wow, GNU? That's interesting.

Okay, if you're telling the truth, then maybe that Option 1 I posed is correct. It kind of throws my "3-4 each of 3-4 different OSes" out the window.

That said, Google still isn't an OS (though as I recall, they're trying to design one? I may be mistaken on that, though...)

[Fishythefish]

So why are the two identical roles more likely to be the same alignment?

Frankly, I don't know what to be trying to lynch atm. The lack of information, combined with the mod's warning about flavour, means that setup speculation is, for the moment, very difficult indeed. The fact that we have three claimed cops, and two of them are the same, suggests that maybe the third, more boring cop is lying. If you are lying I want you dead. If everyone is telling the truth, I've absolutely no idea who I would lynch to get me nearer to my version of winning with the town, whatever town that may be.

[Faraday]

Ugh, this is frustrating.

Anyone Phate says he wants to be converted by Snow_Bunny, why should she convert you if you're already town? That doesn't really make any sense to me, but then neither does anything else in this game.

I'm still bemused by the fact people don't want to lynch Pom. Idk what she's done to not be in the gallows by now but w/e it's apparently not happening anyway.

I've no reason *at all* from my PM to believe I'll flip guilty or anything like it as there's no hint at me being a miller/death miller/guilty of anything, so idk about that Glork. I do realise the reveals are partial but there's still no way to me mine can be construed as cult/mafia or anything of that sort.

[UncertainKitten]

Just read Phate's claim. I think it's a good idea to lynch him still, but let me read these last two pages.

So you're voting me on it not matching up in a bastard fucking game? Are you serious?

oh wow let me read back.

Seems that way.

Seriously this is absolutely garbage. You're out-guessing the mod based in a bastard game for no apparent reason. The fact everyone just happenes to notice this when phate is ran up to L-1 isn't weird at all. Chances of a Phate/Socio connection have just gone way up.

I think I pointed that out...

You could have claimed 'US Bank' and use the 'outguessing the mod' argument.
'WELL JUST CAUSE ITS A BANK DOENST MEAN THIS ISNT A BASTARD GAME'

FoS: SP

That was an enjoyable strawman.

Unless you can name something that is more solid than that, it is the most solid thing we have:
Everyone's company lines up but yours.
Everyone is one of the 3 companies that lines up, but you.

Everyone? I think I only see four claims, and my own role. I don't think that qualifies as EVERYONE.

Its been stated that there are people in the town actively looking to switch their OSes.

What does this do to SBs claim?

It's interesting to watch how Faraday panics as he approaches a lynch. It doesn't feel like someone who believes they win with the town.

Oddly enough, I see him as rightfully pissed at the case on him. I'd likely be raging if I had the same accusations leveled against me.

^^^ This back's up Phate's claim. Vala was the one to originally hypothesise that Snow might be a cop too. Seems likely that maybe it's b/c it matches her own role so closesly.

Good catch. But it doesn't necessarily make Phate town.

Contrast with my behavior at L-1. I give a list of my suspicions, a wagon analysis, some game speculation, claim my full role, suggested a MC tomorrow, and more-or-less resign to being lynched; in other words, I helped the town as much as I could rather than freaking out and starting to OMGUS those on my wagon.

The difference here is you had a halfway decent case against you. It wasn't a Wall banger such as "OMG! OUT OF THE FOUR CLAIMS, YOU AREN'T AN OS!", which, is, effectively, a flavor argument. Still, I'd have gone with it had SB's role had mentioned OS'.

There's a lot of relevant information in the last three pages or so. It doesn't take long to read it all (if you want to ignore my massive wagon analysis post for now, you can), and it will help everyone if you grok it all before you start making your mind up.

I did catch the claim finally, and I think this might be a strange cultish set up, in which case I think you should be lynched.

There are some that glorify their own lynch.

Hehe, making a reference to something?

So, ITT we have three cop-type roles. Two of them are identical for different OS's, one of them is completley different.

unvote, vote: Faraday

What about SSK?

I tried. I'm not sure I agree with Glork's conclusions, but I think there might be a point about this being OS wars...

We really need either Faraday's or Phate's flip, I guess...and honestly, I lean Phate.

I'm aware how tightly this will tie me to Faraday's flip. but I think SP is equally tied to Phate's flip at this point. I really hope this actually gets us somewhere...

[Iecerint]

Background question -- on the evilness scale according to free software types, where do people usually put Google? My intuition is something like "better than MS and Apple," but I dun really know.

[Iecerint]

I tried googling it (ha!), but I got hits insinuating both that Google tries to cash in on free software sensibility and that they are legitimately supportive of aspects of the movement.

[Phate]

Google has a reputation as being kind of a white knight (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_evil) compared to their competitors. Of course, there are people who claim that Google is evil (http://www.google-watch.org/) because they retain data indefinitely, etc.

[Iecerint]

Right; I understand that they promote that image. I'm trying to get an idea of the typical perception by, say, the sort of person who would make OpenSource Mafia, though.