Mini 897 - OpenSource Mafia - Game over!!

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: 3. Or does that extra sentence indicate the more full explanation. (I'd missed it.)

[Pomegranate]

Pome, you said this yesterday:

I don't have time to explain fully right now (due to my weekly V/LA).

Mass-claim is generally a bad idea in early game because once PRs are outed, then often they're killed soon after. Yes, we can coordinate our night actions better, but it's a trade off, because usually the mafia NK the PRs ASAP. That's the basic reason not to mass-claim early in the game.

1. Is your V/LA finished?
2. Do you intend to explain more fully?

Yes.

Not this second- I'm going to be busy for a few hours.

[SlySly]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 7

SocioPath

- 0 -

UncertainKitten

- 0 -

Pomegranate

- 3 - MafiaSSK, Faraday, AlmasterGM

Vaya

- 0 -

Faraday

- 1 - Fishythefish

MafiaSSK

- 0 -

Snow_Bunny

- 0 -

Glork

- 0 -

Phate

- 5 - Glork, UncertainKitten, Pomegranate, Iecerint, Snow_Bunny

AlmasterGM

- 0 -

Fishythefish

- 0 -

Iecerint

- 1 - SocioPath

Players not voting: Vaya, Phate

Deadline: Friday, Jan 15th, 7pm (central)

[Iecerint]

I am currently in 2 mod-abandoned games and 2 waiting-for-a-poster games.

[Fishythefish]

Firstly, sorry for my recent lack of attentiveness. Should be better from now on.

Given Glork’s information re partial flips, I agree that Faraday’s claim is looking good.

I dislike Pome’s vote for Phate far more than the others on the wagon. Reads like she is wagoning more for the wagon than the reasons.

However, Phate’s claim that he wants massclaim for role-related reasons

stinks

. If this is the case, why on earth didn’t you claim instead of suggest massclaim? Then we would have the same information as you, and would go for a massclaim, if that’s the right course. If your information is such that claiming first would make massclaim useless, why would you think that the town would go along with it? This claim makes no sense to me, and feels like scum trying to cite vague role related reasons because lots of other players have done so and been believed.

unvote, vote: Phate (L-1)

I'm happier with this lynch than a Pom lynch.

[Iecerint]

In addition to a claim, be sure Pom doesn't get out of her promised-days-ago elaboration.

[MafiaSSK]

One request for Phate. can you please give a list of suspicions before you get lynched?

[Pomegranate]

Mass-claim is generally a bad idea in early game because once PRs are outed, then often they're killed soon after. Yes, we can coordinate our night actions better, but it's a trade off, because usually the mafia NK the PRs ASAP. That's the basic reason not to mass-claim early in the game.

Claiming PRs D1 makes them more likely to get killed off one by one. Also, scum can claim certain PRs- cop, doc, roleblocker. These aren't foolproof for scum, but happen.

Also, Phate, if we're disagreeing about this because you have a role-based reason to think so and I don't, well, I think we can see where the disagreement comes from. Fishy said that the best plan for you would have been for you to claim, I think that would have made enough sense.

From the info I had, current mass-claim was a bad idea. If you have more info that you feel ready to share, then do.

[Glork]

I'd also like to point out that any remotely playable setup will have safeguards against D1 massclaim winning for the town. D1 is NEVER the time to massclaim, as it will pretty much always benefit scums MUCH, MUCH more than towns.

[Faraday]

I prefer a Pom lynch than a Phate lynch still. Waiting on Phate's response to the mass claim thing but it honestly doesn't look like Pom cares who's lynched, as long as it's not her, she doesn't seem interested in finding scum to me; at all.


Also Phate's sig seems apt giving his wanting to mass claim, I think.

[Iecerint]

It honestly doesn't look like Pom cares who's lynched, as long as it's not her, she doesn't seem interested in finding scum to me; at all.

I agree with this. However, compare her to Phate, who a) isn't voting at all and b) without pressure, would be voting to lynch you-the-Cop.

Both players are pretty vacuous. Pom, particularly, is useless at best. But Vala/Phate, due to that and the massclaim request, has the added bonus of being scummy.

I'm interested to see what in Phate's role would lead him to advocate massclaim. Someone not currently on the wagon should ask him for the claim, though.

[SocioPath]

Also Phate's sig seems apt giving his wanting to mass claim, I think.

Heh, I wonder how his current opinion correlates with his sig.

[Glork]

========[]

[Phate]

I'd like to take a look at today's major wagons.

Note to Iecrint: halfway through writing this, I realized your name is Iecrint. However, I like Icerint better, so if doesn't overly bother you, I'm going to continue to refer to you as 'Ice' or 'Icerint'.

The first was on JL, and reached its peak on Dec 17. Icerint started the wagon, and Fishythefish hopped on next. Glork laid the middle vote, then UncertainKitten wagoned to L-3 and SocioPath took it to L-2.

The next, on Pom, reached its peak on Dec 21. Glork started this one, AlmasterGM voted next, then MafiaSSK, then JL, then Icerint.
There was a competing wagon on Icerint consisting of, respectively, SocioPath, UncertainKitten, Snow_Bunny, and Fishythefish.

At this point, both wagons seem to disintegrate into a fairly even layout across Pom (Glork, MSSK), JL (UK, AGM), AGM (Pom, Ice, SB), and Ice (SP, fishy)

It's at this point that I entered the game, and the events from then on seem fairly straightforward.

I've listed you from most 'wagony' to least.
Fishythefish
Icerint, Snow_Bunny
AlmasterGM, SocioPath, UncertainKitten
Glork, Josh Lyman/Faraday, MafiaSSK
[large gap]
Pomegranate
[gap]
Vaya

Let's ignore the middle ~half for now and look at the top 3 and the bottom 2.

Exhibit A: Fishythefish

First vote was on Pom ("for giving a related voting reason to iec. Smacks of being too scared to come up with an original random voting reason, for fear of being called scummy"). When Pom asks "What happened to RVS?" he says "My vote was never random."

Verdict: for the RVS, well-reasoned.

Next vote was on Josh (2nd vote on Josh). He gives no reason for leaving Pom. Reasoning: "Josh gives a potentially serious reason for his vote, and then distances from it. He's keeping his options open as to whether this is a random vote. His next two posts irk me, as well. They feel very like a totally unwarranted defense of Vaya."

Verdict: good reasoning.

Next vote is for Icerint, and he gives no reasoning, beyond that he's "happy to leave the Vaya-SSK-UK situation alone today" because both claims strike him as genuine. This is the fourth vote.

Verdict: mildly suspicious, but understandable.

His next vote on the 30th, is for JL. He gives a slew of reasoning here, and his summary is "Poor attack on Pome, combined with active lurking."

Verdict: a good vote, and well-reasoned.

In conclusion, despite being in my opinion the most wagon-prone player in the game, Fishy mostly backs this up with solid reasoning and does not appear scummy to me.

Exhibit B: Icerint

His first vote is on Pom "for being late to confirm", a clear random vote

Verdict: unsuspicious.

His next vote is for JL, on the grounds that the "insinuation that Glork is unhelpful is rolefishing." He's referring to JL's random vote on Glork "for being unhelpful." I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning, but it is present. This would be suspicious if he hopped on an existing wagon, but this was the beginning of JL's first wagon.

Verdict: unsuspicious.

He keeps his vote on JL for perhaps 40 posts. After the wagon gets to a certain size, he jumps off and onto MafiaSSK. His reason is complete OMGUS.

Verdict: suspicious.

His next vote is for SocioPath. He says "I can get behind an SPwagon. It's certainly better than my current vote [MafiaSSK], and while I don't want to fully abandon JL, his limited activity would make a JL revote pretty inert. And I trust UK's official information on how to handle the SSK/Vaya situation.

Verdict: I find this vote very suspicious. It seems to me like he started the JL wagon early on a faulty reason, not anticipating that other players would jump on, then panicked and jumped onto MafiaSSK when it appeared possible that JL would be lynched. The SocioPath vote is a reasonable place to be, and better than lynching a scumbuddy. I think JL and Ice are scum together, and this makes UK and MSSK look very townie by association. Icescum would not jump from one accidental scumbuddy wagon onto a scumbuddy, and I can hardly seeing him using the words "And I trust UK's official information" in this context about a scumbuddy.

His next vote is for Pom. It puts her at L-2. He gives some reasoning after the vote, but before he just notes that she still has a random vote and says "I don't like Pome's level involvement, but she wasn't really a star scumhunter in Twilight, either." In his vote post, he says "I indicated I would wait for her next post before voting for her, and that was her next post. So. I'm voting for her."

Verdict: Extremely suspicious. This feels completely opportunistic; in fact his "Doublecheck the count before you join in, please" seems like an attempt to make this look less opportunistic, when, in fact, it is.

His next vote is for Alma. In his vote post, he says that he is "dubiously excluding the UK/SSK/Vaya triumvirate". This is a big contrast from his earlier assertion: "And I trust UK's official information on how to handle the SSK/Vaya situation." It seems tailor-made to give him his choice of targets tomorrow and link those three players in the mind of town. He says Alma is "the most obvious choice" and "almost certainly scum". This is due to Alma's 'convert me please' to SB. This vote really makes me wonder about the possibility of Ice/Pomscum, but I don't currently think that's the case.

Verdict: unsuspicious, though the rest of the post is suspicious.

His next vote is for Vaya as a "useless player".

Verdict: suspicious. At this stage in the game, there are plenty of players to go after, many of whom he's already indicted. Why not go back after JL? His only reason for completely dropping his suspicion of JL is that "Faraday has explained the alignment business a little better".

His next vote is for me because he mistakes one of Faraday's posts for one of mine.

Verdict: unsuspicious.

His next vote is for me because "I think Phate's just dodging a question he can't answer."

Verdict: I feel I am unable to have a verdict here without bias, but suffice to say I think this is a fluff reason to jump onto my wagon, similar to his vote for Pom.

Exhibit C: Pomegranate

Pom's first vote is on AGM, "Cuz he confirm strange".

Verdict: unsuspicious. Random vote.

Pom's next 'vote' is to revote AGM. She points out his hypocrisy over attacking her for her lack of postage, and quotes a bunch of his posts that are short, marginal, or devoid of scumhunting.

Verdict: Good vote, good reasoning.

Pom's next vote is for me. She quotes Glork as saying that I "stand out quite a bit", and adds "plus the repeated call for massclaim, and the vote on Faraday after his cop claim."

Verdict: This feels to me like a lazy vote mostly due to not being able to get her primary target lynched.. I don't get the sense that Pom has really been following the game, so when Glork votes me, she picks the most obvious things in thread that people are discussing and follows. Mildly suspicious.

In conclusion, Pom feels middle-of-the-road to me, leaning town.

Exhibit D: Snow_Bunny

Snow_Bunny doesn't really participate in the RVS, and her first vote on Icerint is presumably serious. However, she gives no reason whatsoever anywhere.

Verdict: mildly suspicious.

SB's next vote is on Glork, and again, we receive no reason at all.

Verdict: starting to become suspicious.

SB's next vote on AGM occurs after he implies that she might be scum. She echoes some reasoning she'd already voiced (namely that he'd responded to her offer of conversion), accuses him of rolefishing, and votes him.

Verdict: suspicious.

SB's next vote is on JL. Her reasoning: "Phate's 446 sums it up pretty nicely."

Verdict: suspicious.

In conclusion, Snow_Bunny is playing like either scum or a complete newbie (which she is), and I need to examine her other games to see if she looks this dramatically under-reasoned as town. I'm leaning towards newbie, because I'm not seeing connections between her and other players. I suppose she could be neutral, but I definitely don't want to lynch her today.

Exhibit E: Vaya

Vaya's first vote is for SocioPath. "I'm agreeing with Glork here, about SP's reaction to my and Iec's comments seeming overblown and insincere."

Verdict: I'm undecided.

Vaya's next vote is on MSSK because "With his hesitance to actually claim the details of his role, I'm going to say he's making it up here. Really, he's basically claiming to be a daycop of some sort, that plenty enough to already paint a big NK target on him. There's no point in keeping the exact nature of his role secret in fear of being killed over it."

Verdict: Reasoning exists. Unsuspicious.

Vaya's next vote hops back to SocioPath.

Verdict: Still undecided.

Vaya's next vote points out a terribly opportunistic vote by Josh and adds "This is an awful, scummy reason to jump on the Pom wagon, why isn't this post getting more attention?"

Verdict: Excellent vote.

Vaya's next vote is for Pom, because "she's only made one vote so far all game, and that was a random vote. She hasn't made a real stance or backed it up with a vote all game."

Verdict: Good vote.

Vaya's next vote is for Vala, because "Looking at her posts in iso, I have no idea who she suspects. She's just as guilty, if no more so at this point, of not scumhunting than others who have been accused of it lately."

Verdict: Good vote.

Conclusion: While Vaya tends to change votes quickly, I don't think she's scum right now.

[Phate]

In conclusion, I suspect Faraday and MafiaSSK to be scum (if there indeed are scum; see my suspicions below), my opinions about SlySly's competence should be apparent from my signature, and my reason for massclaiming (and for the wavering over Faraday) is that my role seems to be identical.

Though my win condition is town, my role is affiliated with WinBlows and is called a cop. I also can investigate and I receive Innocent or Guilty. In addition, assuming I receive results (which obviously implies that there are roles that return no results), I can use a script to attempt to change the alignment of the player I investigated.

Look at Vala in iso; there's a post where she asks someone else a question that makes it apparent that she's thinking of our role, above.

My call for massclaim and my opinion on SlySly is because, due to my role, the similarities with Faraday's claim, and the earlier 'let's not lynch this guy, because role-related', I find it likely that there are no scum per se; rather that each OS is their own alignment with a similar or identical roleset. If true, the town win condition I received is blatantly false unless I equate 'the town' with 'WinBlows', which is indeed bastardmoddery. I'm unsure of whether to play as town or scum here, hence my wavering.

I don't understand how quickly Faraday went from 'almost lynched' to 'under no suspicion', but I'm suspicious of it. I don't think the votes will drop off me like stones in a similar manner, and so I advise you to massclaim tomorrow so that this insanity can possibly be salvaged into something at least solvable, if not balanced or enjoyable.

[Phate]

Sorry, the above post should say "I suspect Faraday and Icerint to be scum"

[Phate]

Note that Pom adamantly refused to give any explanation why asking for a D1 massclaim is scummy. To the best of my knowledge, neither has anyone else; just reasons why it's generally a bad idea.

[Iecerint]

My name is actually Iecerint. There are two e's. "Ice" is fine. It's pronounced /jekerInt/, where the e's are epsilons and the I is typically reduced to a schwa.

Hmm. Is a nice post. Particularly, you don't blithely target the alternawagon. Let me respond to your concerns:

His first vote is on Pom "for being late to confirm", a clear random vote

I don't consider it totally random. I think confirming late is a (weak) scumtell, especially if there's a large lag before the final confirm. Granted, it wasn't really that large a lag this time.

I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning [about JL rolefishing], but it is present.

Doublecheck the context. JL calls out Glork for being unhelpful after Glork said he had set-up for information, but wouldn't share it. JL wanted Glork to provide the information.

After the wagon gets to a certain size, he jumps off and onto MafiaSSK. His reason is complete OMGUS.

I 100% dispute this. SSK claimed he had "seen me doing something" as scum in other games (but only after UK prodded him) whereas I have literally never been scum. It looked to me like he was answering in the way least likely to invite controversy. (I think he just assumed I've been scum somewhere.) A lot of those posts are simulposts, which may muddy the context as you read through it, so check that. His explanation is possible, but I'm still not sure. I'd still be going after him if not for his claimed role and the 1/1 it presents; that doesn't seem like a scum thing to do.

Verdict: I find [the vote on SP] very suspicious. It seems to me like he started the JL wagon early on a faulty reason, not anticipating that other players would jump on, then panicked and jumped onto MafiaSSK when it appeared possible that JL would be lynched.

I literally loved the JL wagon. I would still love it if he hadn't been replaced by Faraday and Faraday hadn't claimed Cop. The insanity insinuations are a little annoying, though, I guess.

The next two parts are a little weird, though:

This VOTE: feels completely opportunistic.

This [subsequent vote for Alma] really makes me wonder about the possibility of Ice/Pomscum, but I don't currently think that's the case.

I don't understand. I know you say you don't think it was the case, but are you arguing that I was opportunistically voting my scumbuddy?

In his [for-Alma] vote post, he says that he is "dubiously excluding the UK/SSK/Vaya triumvirate". This is a big contrast from his earlier assertion: "And I trust UK's official information on how to handle the SSK/Vaya situation."

I was feeling a little sketchier toward UK in the aftermath of UK's wagon on me.

It seems tailor-made to give him his choice of targets tomorrow and link those three players in the mind of town.

lolwat? It's not as if I invented the links between those players. They are plainly obvious. They're not scum-scum links, but they're links. Anyway, UK has information she can't share with us; we'll learn more about that tomorrow.

His next vote is for Vaya as a "useless player".

As I recall, I voted Vaya to address SSK's implicit 1/1. This was kinda a continuation of my eroded confidence in UK. If I really just typed that as a reason (did I really?), it was an error on my part.

I think the 100% best lynches today are either Alma or Vaya. Alma is all but claimed scum. We have a guilty on Vaya. But Glork is protecting Alma, and UK is protecting Vaya, and everyone seems pretty content with that. So I'm going with my third-tier scumpick.

[Iecerint]

Whoa. OK. Well. That one was before the three more recent posts.

Well, the good news is that it's clear why you wanted to massclaim, even if it wasn't really for a pro-town reason. It's also clear why you didn't announce your role first, as others have suggested ("I'm associated with WinBlows, but I'm town! And I'm not a Miller!") (Actually, I'm just assuming you're not a Miller.)

Fishy, I'm assuming that your role specifically indicates that you're a Miller? Phate, do you have any flavor that might help us to understand/evaluate your role?

I think any other town players who are affiliated with something that is not pro-free software should claim as much to help us evaluate Phate's claim. Seeing none, I feel OK about lynching a claimed WinBlows-using player.

[Iecerint]

Keeping information secret is part of Mafia. Well-made games are set-up to encourage players to adhere to the spirit of the game. As such, claiming information tends to help scum more than town on average. So it's scummy to try to pull it off.

It's true that mass claiming can sometimes help town, but only when the set-up is breakable. (For that matter, it's arguably better to avoid breaking the set-up in those cases, if only to make a broken game into a playable game.)

Pom taking forever to answer was annoying, I give you that, but I didn't get the sense that she "refused" to answer anything.

[Phate]

I don't have any relevant flavor that I haven't mentioned already. Nothing about 'wanting to convert to Linux', like someone (I believe Alma) mentioned; just that I am the administrator of a slow, inefficient network. It also looks nothing like a scum PM - for example, I don't know of any other WinBlows-using players (if I did, I would be assuming I'm scum and playing of such).

[Iecerint]

I see. It sounds like that resembles Alma's claim to an extent, not explicitly wanting to convert notwithstanding. I doubt you're both traitors, which is the other thing I could imagine.

I want to wait for any other non-free software people to claim before I do anything else.

[Iecerint]

Phate, is there flavor context for you being a Cop? Like, are you searching out the nefarious free software people (free software => guilty) or are you lazily seeing who else is forced to deal with inefficient networks (WinBlows => guilty), or is there any indication?

[Phate]

I don't have any relevant flavor that I haven't mentioned already.

Nothing about why I investigate or what I'm investigating for. Just that if there are results, it will be innocent or guilty.

[Iecerint]

K. Thought it couldn't hurt to ask.