Mini 905- Mafia in Sienna OVER

[Sotty7]

Fast replacements for the win.

I'm disliking Elli more and more.

How come? You don't even mention him in the rest of your post.

[Wickedestjr]

@Kitten4u in post 170 - Do you believe that CTD's RVS stance connected him to MME at all? Also, if you actually noticed that Thesp had also not taken any stances, then why didn't you say why you found Leaf more suspicious when you voted him?

I disagree - they help me get a feel on players in the game.

Did the RVS not give you this information? Why?

Oman, what do you think of pman and Leaf?

To be at my most truthful: I think pman would give us a lot of info if he had a wagon put on him, as per the last game. I think it would be a good way to glean some good info (although for most people we seem beyond that stage of the game).

As for leaf, I don't get the scum read. I'll re-read him and his accusers and let you know my adjudication at this time. But from what I've seen, nothing has actually stunned me as either worth chasing him over, or worth pointing fingers at his attackers. Not worth asking for a summary right now, but I do think it looks like an early game wagon, which I'm cool with. If people know when to abandon it or not, that will tell me more.

FoS: Oman

I thought it was the most likely, and best for a followup, although it wasn't the only reason, as Ellibereth later demonstrated .

I'm sorry, but I'm still not getting it:

1.) Why did you ask Ellibereth about her behavior if you already assumed he was doing it to get reactions?

2.) What do you think is the purpose of asking a follow-up question?

The wagon on you wasn't going to happen.

Are you saying that you are only voting Kitten because she has a bandwagon?

[Wickedestjr]

Inconsistencies. Overexplanation. Overdefensiveness. Vagueness. Refusal to answer. Panic. The prescence or abscence of these things can tell you a lot. Note that these aren't all necessarily scumtells. Other than this... you haven't really asked any questions or made any kind of enquiries in that post. Why? Who's scum?

What have the answers to your questions told you so far?

[Thesp]

You disliked it in the first place? How come?

I don't find Kitten4u nearly as interesting as those on the wagon seem to. Combine that with the particular people on the wagon are people I am most hesitant about, it looks awfully bad to me. (Looks like Leafsnail also asks this - same answer.) (And Kitten4u.)

Hello, Ythill! Hello Budja! Ythill, you can say hello to Budja with a vote. That's the most friendly and welcoming of approaches to meeting a new player in the game.

Did the RVS not give you this information? Why?

It's more random stuff and less topical information.

Needs moar Budjawagon. I will switch to Ellibereth if needed.

[Ythill]

Hello everyone. I'm replacing into two games at once, so please forgive if it takes me a day or two to get everyone's names straight. I'm posting in this one first because Thesp + Oman + CTD demands special treatment.

Thesp, I will try not to tard out in the late-game this time. I've played a few endgames since that one you hammered me in and am markedly less spastic now (I hope).

Anyway... I skimmed this thread last night and am wondering why the Leafy wagon isn't bigger. I'll post a case sometime this weekend but for now I see nothing wrong with marking my suspicions with a

vote: Leafy

.

Kitten isn't looking golden either, and their fight reeks of distancing. Budja I don't see so much as scum at this point, but it could be that he/she was under my radar during the skim. Anyway, I don't see enough to help you out there, Thesp. More commentary later...

[Ythill]

As promised...

It starts out with overactiveness in the pre-game and RVS, demonstrating that Leaf was chomping at the bit to play.

Leafsnail, can you PM your scumbuddies and let them know we've started?

Uh... actually, looking at the OP, rule 6 implies that even the mafia members cannot communicate with each other at all.

Mod: Can the mafia members talk to each other? If so, how?

Most people read the rules during the confirm phase, especially if they are bored and bit-chomping like Leaf was. If they have questions, they ask them then, either by PM or in-thread. Of course, a scum isn't going to read nighttalk rules very carefully at that point, because his role PM contains a more detailed version.

When a townie reads Thesp's question they're going to catch the context and realize that "can" means "could." They're either going to post a joke response or state something bland like "Sorry, I'm not scum." If one of the mafia reads this question, he is more likely to see "can" as "do you have the ability to" because he's being paranoid. If he's worthy of his pinstriped suit, he's going to check back and look at the rules again to remind himself what the public knows about such things, and answer accordingly.

In posting his answer, that scum is probably going to realize something along the lines of "if I show that I don't know this, it suggests I'm town" and a question to the mod is posted as a smokescreen. Later, he says that, if he were scum, he'd have PMed the mod but that begs several questions. Why not, instead, point out that the scum surely were told their powers in their role PMs, unless he thought that might bring unwanted questions about how he knows or why he asked an obvious question? Why PM the mod as scum but not as town? Why that second skim of the rules in reference to Thesp's question?

Earliest scumslip I've seen. Go Thesp.

Ellibereth, you've once again failed to answer my question, and have instead just thrown a vote my way. Perhaps you could at least explain why you find me suspicious, or who else you find suspicious?

First, nitpicking Elli was not needed. She was clearly joking and stirring the pot. Second, her vote was obviously OMGUS and I think Leaf is sharp enough to know that. So this is more pointless nitpicking. Granted, it's early.

Also, what makes you think there are two mafia members?

Really? Reaching suspicions based on the fact that he said "partner" instead of "partners"?

In #89, Leaf reverses his position on Elli with no explicit reason (he does come up with one later, when questioned, but flip flops on it). Elli has only made a one-word post between his last attack and this dismissal but two things of note have happened. One player has voted Leaf saying that Elli doesn't look like scum and pman (a potential buddy) has both defended leaf and condemned Elli (which might have inspired distancing). Furthermore, as is pointed out later, this post gives early reads on most players but leaves out Oman, Thesp, CTD, and Sotty. Who ignores veteran players? Scum.

#93 he pokes at Elli again, whom he is supposedly leaning town on.

#146 seriously looks like scum damage control: add the neglected players to the notes, pointlessly link to a bunch of games in response to someone else that did the same, post some slippery OMGUS defenses. This is also where he gives reasoning for his Elli-town read. It's very iffy and laden with qualifiers, which means it's easy to go back on if he needs to.

The next few posts contain a lot of deflection defense. Then he gets in the squabble with kitten, which, like I said, seems very disingenuous to me, like two buddies having at it. This is solidified in #186, where he questions Elli (who he's reading as town) for voting kitten (who he's currently voting) while, in the same breath, asking Thesp to speak out against the kitten wagon. I don't see why a townie would act this way at all.

Leaf, care to comment?

[Leafsnail]

What have the answers to your questions told you so far?

Slight town read on Elli, helped create discussion that formed my current suspicions.

Most people read the rules during the confirm phase, especially if they are bored and bit-chomping like Leaf was. If they have questions, they ask them then, either by PM or in-thread. Of course, a scum isn't going to read nighttalk rules very carefully at that point, because his role PM contains a more detailed version.

I read them, yes, but Thesp's question made me realise that Rule 6 seemed a bit odd.

In posting his answer, that scum is probably going to realize something along the lines of "if I show that I don't know this, it suggests I'm town" and a question to the mod is posted as a smokescreen. Later, he says that, if he were scum, he'd have PMed the mod but that begs several questions. Why not, instead, point out that the scum surely were told their powers in their role PMs, unless he thought that might bring unwanted questions about how he knows or why he asked an obvious question? Why PM the mod as scum but not as town? Why that second skim of the rules in reference to Thesp's question?

I don't know what the scum have in their role pms. As for asking the mod on the main thread... well, I thought someone else might have thought the same thing as I did, and a clarification might be better.

Really? Reaching suspicions based on the fact that he said "partner" instead of "partners"?

I was parodying his attempt to paint me as super-newb scum.

In #89, Leaf reverses his position on Elli with no explicit reason (he does come up with one later, when questioned, but flip flops on it). Elli has only made a one-word post between his last attack and this dismissal but two things of note have happened.

The reason I ask questions is to try and establish a read on someone. Having asked some questions, I came to the conclusion that Elli was probably obstructive town.

One player has voted Leaf saying that Elli doesn't look like scum and pman (a potential buddy) has both defended leaf and condemned Elli (which might have inspired distancing). Furthermore, as is pointed out later, this post gives early reads on most players but leaves out Oman, Thesp, CTD, and Sotty. Who ignores veteran players? Scum.

I'm not sure who are "veteran players" here and who is new. I wrote people's names in that posts according to things which struck me about them, not according to how long they have been on this forum.

#146 seriously looks like scum damage control: add the neglected players to the notes, pointlessly link to a bunch of games in response to someone else that did the same, post some slippery OMGUS defenses. This is also where he gives reasoning for his Elli-town read. It's very iffy and laden with qualifiers, which means it's easy to go back on if he needs to.

The links was a direct request from Elli, which didn't seem to hard to do. As for the Elli read, what exactly do you find "iffy" about it?

Then he gets in the squabble with kitten, which, like I said, seems very disingenuous to me, like two buddies having at it. This is solidified in #186, where he questions Elli (who he's reading as town) for voting kitten (who he's currently voting) while, in the same breath, asking Thesp to speak out against the kitten wagon. I don't see why a townie would act this way at all.

Agreeing with me =/= town. Yes, I was and am still voting Kitten, but switching votes without reason (in the manner that Ellibereth did) should generally receive scrutiny. Thesp, meanwhile, hadn't provided a particular reason for not voting Kitten, so I wanted to see what reason he gave.

[Budja]

Skimmed.

----
Elli is zwet-like and hard to read. Little gut-town.
P-man's page 6 jump looks town. A bit too overt for scum. Focusing on Elli is null.

Then he gets in the squabble with kitten, which, like I said, seems very disingenuous to me, like two buddies having at it.

^ I get the feeling Kitten doesn't believe in her attack.

I'm torn on Leaf. His scum-talk question was bad but nothing else makes me think scum.

---
I won't pop a vote yet (bit more reading) but I think I will be joining the popular wagon .

[Oman]

Can you quote or link to those specific posts. I'm looking for a new wagon and I'll take yours if you can convince me.

(I'm ditching this wagon right now because I'm not getting anything from it)

[Budja]

Note to self: read thread properly .
---
After a deeper read Kitten is actually obv-town.
I initially found her jump onto the early bandwagon a bit suss (4th vote in a short time) but she did had the best reason to be on it.
This post,

Basically, I'm voting for you for two reasons. The first is that you didn't take a stance on anyone until I called you out on it. I think scum is more likely to do this because they want to avoid connecting themselves to anyone; when someone flips town they don't want to have to take responsibility for being on the wagon (because it makes them look bad) and they don't want to connect themselves to their buddies for obvious reasons. Basically, I believe that not having a stance is a large part of what staying under the radar entails.

However, if scum just did that they would get caught pretty quickly. A nice, easy way to look productive without actually saying anything is to ask a bunch of questions without really doing anything with them. These questions may or may not be relevant, but most of the time they are pretty reactionary. That is the vibe I get from your questions.

tl;dr case: Staying under the radar and active lurking.

is very good posting. Rereading leak (especially in ISO) , I see him comment on things a lot but rarely give anything beyond a weak stance. He does ask a lot of questions but I can't see them leading anywhere.
Look at any post of Leak's and you will see this.

confirm vote Leaf

.

---
My reads on Elli/P-man are still good and have not changed BTW.

[Leafsnail]

I'm torn on Leaf. His scum-talk question was bad but

nothing else makes me think scum.

He does ask a lot of questions but I can't see them leading anywhere.

Look at any post of Leak's [Leaf's] and you will see this.

So which is it, Budja? These seem to pretty much directly contradict each other. Did you just realise I'd be the easiest to mislynch, especially if you suddenly changed your stance on Kitten due to a lacklustre post?

I won't pop a vote yet (bit more reading) but I think I will be joining the popular wagon

Or does this tell us all we need to know on your motive for voting me? You haven't done anything other than rehashing old arguments about "pointless questions" and so on.

[Budja]

Well, duh. Its a contradiction brought about by lax reading.

Skimmed.

Note to self: read thread properly.

..and your quote-reply walls tend to be skimmed the most.
---
The only addition I can think of is the "scum-talk slip" you did. It's a good case and pretty complete IMO. You could really sum up my last post as "I agree with this case".

[Sotty7]

pman

can you please respond to post 165

My gut is telling me that Leaf is town. The questioning thing is something I often find myself doing as town when I am still getting my sea legs under me. Ythill's case surrounding the Leaf scum talk question is pretty good, but I don't think it is enough to convince me to vote for Leaf.

I don't get how Budja finds Kitten obv town. Does this mean you agree with her rational that leaf is under the radar and/or active lurking?

[Leafsnail]

The only addition I can think of is the "scum-talk slip" you did. It's a good case and pretty complete IMO. You could really sum up my last post as "I agree with this case".

So why didn't you say that before? Before you were just quoting Kitten to show how "obv town" she is. Now you're doing it as a bandwagonning method. This is exactly what I meant by "inconsistency of motive". Also, if you can tell how obvscum I'm being by looking at ANY of my posts, how did you possibly miss them all the first time around?

[Wickedestjr]

Thesp, why are you suspicious of Ellibereth?

Most people read the rules during the confirm phase, especially if they are bored and bit-chomping like Leaf was. If they have questions, they ask them then, either by PM or in-thread. Of course, a scum isn't going to read nighttalk rules very carefully at that point, because his role PM contains a more detailed version.

What night talk rules?

The next few posts contain a lot of deflection defense.

Examples?


Overall, I like Ythill, but the case isn't convincing me.


@Leaf:

I'm sorry, but I'm still not getting it:

1.) Why did you ask Ellibereth about her behavior if you already assumed he was doing it to get reactions?

2.) What do you think is the purpose of asking a follow-up question?

3.) What specifically has given you your town read on Ellibereth?

^ I get the feeling Kitten doesn't believe in her attack.

Where?


Also, Kitten, in addition to responding to my previous post, please also respond to this:

She votes Leafsnail for not taking any stances when we were about 70 posts into the game and we were just getting out of the RVS imo.

[Leafsnail]

1.) Why did you ask Ellibereth about her behavior if you already assumed he was doing it to get reactions?

Again, it seemed like the most likely possibility. Not the only possibility, but the most likely one.

2.) What do you think is the purpose of asking a follow-up question?

Allows you to get more information. Usually, when I say "Why did you do that?" to someone, they say "Looking for reactions" and nothing else. I wanted an expanded answer, basically.

3.) What specifically has given you your town read on Ellibereth?

Again, it's from past experience - someone being useless and obstructive is probably town, as scum would at least try to answer and avoid suspicion and followups. That's not to say I prefer to play with useless and obstructive people, but I find that people like this are generally more helpful as scum.

[Darkstrike_11]

Vote Count as of post 215

Kitten4u (5): [Leafsnail, Wickedestjr, CrashTextDummie, Ellibereth, pman5595]
Leafsnail (3): [Budja, Kitten4u, Ythill]
Ellibereth (2): [Oman, My Milked Eek]
Budja (1): Thesp]
Pman5595 (1): [Sotty7]



With 12 Players, a majority of 7 is needed for a lynch.
Deadline is 10pm, 24th Jan 2010 (GMT)

[pman5595]

jumping all over the place? please enlighten me.

about the whole crap with Elli, is there a problem trying to get someone to explain why they voted someone? is that really a scumtell now?

And if you are voting because of gut, explain why you get that gut feeling, as it obviously couldn't have come out of nowhere.

Nowhere did I say my vote was on gut. Why did you even ask that question?

That wasn't referring to you. Of those three lines, only the first was referring to you. Sorry for any confusion.

When I say hopping I around that's just what I mean. You jumped on Elli and kept pushing him to answer his question. He wouldn't, while I agree that isn't helpful, neither is you asking that question over and over just to get the same result. You then proceeded to

unvote

him for a sarcastic vote that means what exactly? Are you even suspicious of Wicked at all?

The sarcastic vote was to show Elli and everyone else who said voting by gut was good strategy how annoying and terrible strategy it is. It might be jumping all over the place, but it wasn't bandwagoning and it wasn't scummy

You have since unvoted again but didn't bother to place your vote back on Elli, why not? Is he annoying or is he scummy? If it is the latter where is your vote? If it is the former why aren't you scum hunting?

the former, and I have more recently after your post was made.

How do you know Leaf is an innocent townie?

That's just my inference from his posts so far. He is just scumhunting.

Still that is quite a leap. What parts of his scum hunting do you agree with in particular?

Early on he seemed to be the first person to really start taking it seriously and start looking for scum. He questioned the motives behind RVS bandwagons, questioned the motivations behind individual votes early on. He seems like he is pro-town and takes it more seriously than others. *coughELLIcough*

[Kitten4u]

The prescence or abscence of these things can tell you a lot. Note that these aren't all necessarily scumtells. Other than this... you haven't really asked any questions or made any kind of enquiries in that post. Why?

I only ask questions I consider relevant and important. I find asking anymore than that scummy.

...Though I can't help but feel I've answered this question before.

Who's scum?

You see, it's questions like this that make me suspicous of you. If you can't tell who I think is scum you are obviously not reading the thread.

I still think you are scum.

Contradiction, and when called out, her defense seemed more about survival than helping the town.

Uh, what contradiction? And my defense has consisted of two things: 1.) Answering every question thrown at me and 2.) trying to get Leafy, who I think is scum, lynched. How is that self-preservation-esque at all?

How come? You don't even mention him in the rest of your post.

Eh, Elli's a pretty cool guy. Shamelessly bandwagons and doesn't afraid of anything.

Do you believe that CTD's RVS stance connected him to MME at all?

Yep. Saying ____ should be lynched always connects people to other people imo.

Also, if you actually noticed that Thesp had also not taken any stances, then why didn't you say why you found Leaf more suspicious when you voted him?

I didn't think adding the obvious "and his posts give me bad vibes" added anything.

Then he gets in the squabble with kitten, which, like I said, seems very disingenuous to me, like two buddies having at it.

Is there anything else that's making you feel this way? Because I've been pushing Leaf since my first non-random vote post, so this feels like a really weird stance to have to me.

Slight town read on Elli, helped create discussion that formed my current suspicions.

Is that what you got out of the first three quotes I post in this post?

She votes Leafsnail for not taking any stances when we were about 70 posts into the game and we were just getting out of the RVS imo.

Exactly how much time I give people to say

something

depends on the game, but I felt like I gave people plenty of time to say ____ is scummy (or at the very least ____ looks worse than ____, but I'm not sure if he's scum or not) this game. Considering everyone but two people (three if you count Jase who hadn't posted at all I guess) had one I don't I was being unreasonable.

[CrashTextDummie]

I <3 replacements!

Some stuff to deal with:

What don't you like about them? I will say that Wicked isn't as strong as pman and that kitten has climbed above him as my number two right now.

It's mostly the Wicked suspicion I didn't like, because I didn't see it at all. And while I could see where you were coming from with the Pman suspicion, it felt to me like you were avoiding the important discussions going on in the town by concentrating exclusively on those two. It's certainly not the strongest tell in the book, but it tingled my scum-dar.

Go on, spill the beans.

"Some other things" mostly extends to small instances in your play that tingled my gut (your reaction to Thesp's questionaire, for example), that are really not substantial enough for me to quote here. There's one thing that's bothering me quite a bit though, and that is the fact that you've been accusing Leaf of being scum with Ellibereth and really spending most of your time lately attacking leaf, while keeping your vote on Ellibereth despite the fact that Leaf has the bigger wagon and your vote would be much better placed on him. Your behavoir concerning those two doesn't make much sense to me from a pro-town perspective.

---------

Ythill's entry into the game looks rather solid to me. Budja's not so much. He may try to explain his U-turn on leaf with his skimming-excuse, but that's just an admition that he's lazy and not interested in finding scum himself.

I'm still happy with my vote.

[Ythill]

I'm going to try (and probably fail) to be brief. I'm glad to hear I'm not convincing people to hop on Leaf just yet. I'm still in the information-gathering phase of my game. I plan to poke Leaf with a stick for a bit and, in the not too distant future, do a deeper read of the game.

Can you quote or link to those specific posts. I'm looking for a new wagon and I'll take yours if you can convince me.

Are you talking to me?

What night talk rules?

Whatever night talk rules. In this case, the lack of them. Are you paying attention?

The next few posts contain a lot of deflection defense.

Examples?

No problem. From #149: "It's easy enough to criticize someone for leaving a couple of people off his list, and a lot harder to try and look at everyone yourself." and "Although, if you have a problem with his playstyle, why aren't you addressing your qualms to him?" (The last one was a response to MME having a problem with Leaf's read on Thesp). Also in #151: "And if you think CTD is so worthy of attention... well, why aren't you paying him any?" (please see post for context) and "and are asking me why I've overlooked things you haven't done anything about yourself."

Then he gets in the squabble with kitten, which, like I said, seems very disingenuous to me, like two buddies having at it.

Is there anything else that's making you feel this way? Because I've been pushing Leaf since my first non-random vote post, so this feels like a really weird stance to have to me.

I have not yet read you in iso but will certainly do so before making any direct accusations against you. The timing of your attacks has nothing to do with it, but the content of them seems forced and does not match the tone. Furthermore (and more importantly in the context of my case), Leaf seems more aggressive and less forgiving with you than with Elli. Often times I find that scum will hold back with townies in case they need to defend them later, but will be more aggressive with distancing/bussing. Of course I could be wrong here but time will tell.

@ Leaf:

I'm not buying that your read on Elli was based on the questions you asked, because he didn't answer any between the two reads, and because you already said it was for different reasons, which makes this another slip. I don't believe that you can't tell who the veterans are, when some of them have obvious special titles and post counts are easy to find. As for the scum-chat slip, of course a townie wouldn't know exactly what's in the scum role PM but, unless he's never been scum, anyone should know what's typical. The rest of your defense on that point doesn't add up either.

If #77 was a parody of Con (which is plausible), why didn't you tell him that when he seemed to take you seriously in #79?

Don't strawman me about the kitten wagon. Agreement =/= town but the agreement was coming from a player you had been calling town for awhile. And see for yourself what I found iffy about the read on Elli (bold added for emphasis):

Something about the way

he isn't rushing to defend his actions and cover himself up.

I dunno, it's just a slight lean

from past experience.

(additional text removed by Ythill, obv)

Ellibereth - Frustratingly unhelpful, but that doesn't make him scum, and I'm not into policy lynches.

Something

about him reminds me of useless town,

but I'm not entirely sure

yet.

Overall, I find the tone of your defense vs. me to be null/acceptable but that against budj to be a little too slimey. What are your current reads on the two of us (and why)?

[Ellibereth]

I have a theory which I'm not going to say right now.

Unvote, Vote Budja

[CrashTextDummie]

If not right now, when are you planning on sharing your theory?

[Ellibereth]

If not right now, when are you planning on sharing your theory?

Maybe Budja L-1, or even after his flip. Still thinking.

[CrashTextDummie]

If Budja L-1, before or after he claims?