Mafia 107 - Christmas Time Mafia (Game over)

[Parama]

I totally lied about content. I forgot about an assignment I had to do and wasted all my free time on my other game. SORRY GUYS YOU CAN LYNCH ME IF I DON'T GET THE CONTENT IN TOMORROW NIGHT BECAUSE I AM A DIRTY DIRTY LIAR ;_;

[curiouskarmadog]

IF YOU ARE TOWN...YOU WILL QUIT WITH THE FUCKING TOWN LISTS!

more to come later.

[Parama]

HOLY CRAP
quadruple post fail
was having problems with posting, sorry ;_;

[Bogre]

@CrymeaRiver

Sorasgoof hasn't been the only person to call out Pman. I've given thoughts on him (and am still currently voting him), as well as a couple others.

Diddin:
Crymeariver hadn't posted anything, yet you feel he's town based on his hatred of noobs? What about Cookie makes you think he's town?

[CryMeARiver]

@CrymeaRiver

Sorasgoof hasn't been the only person to call out Pman. I've given thoughts on him (and am still currently voting him), as well as a couple others.

Diddin:
Crymeariver hadn't posted anything, yet you feel he's town based on his hatred of noobs? What about Cookie makes you think he's town?

Diddin was referring to Cookie when he said I'm town based on hatred of noobs...The mod replaced him with me therefore i have his position...whatever you thought he was based on his arguments should go for me as well

[sorasgoof]

@CrymeaRiver

Sorasgoof hasn't been the only person to call out Pman. I've given thoughts on him (and am still currently voting him), as well as a couple others.

I'm pretty sure Fugitive said I was the only one to call out Pman, not CMAR. Just so you know.

[sorasgoof]

EBWOP:

Scum: I like that you're the only one to call pman out...

[ready2rock]

OK, here is the rest of the list:

sorasgoof: Definitely playing kind of out there, but nothing I think is actually “scum”. The quote that makes me think the most that he is not scum is this: “Basically, though I really don't want to be lynched, I'd be willing to die if it would help the town.” Now what possible reason would scum have to make that post (of course, that might be what he wants me to think, but I don’t want to get into WIFOM)? I think that he is a pro-town player that misunderstands things and gets misrepresented.

ready2rock: obv town.

diddin: Something seems off about him, but I just can’t place it. I especially don’t like this quote “even though the wagon on him fell apart, he's still semi-suspicious”. So other people getting off the wagon changes your opinion of them? That is blatant wagoning. Also, I find it strange that in your scum list (730), you did not list pman even though he is one of 2 people (Richard being the second) that you have consistently found suspicious throughout the entire game. In fact, I really don’t like that post in general.

Fugitive: see Bogre.

pman5595: things I don’t like about his play:
RVS actions (already been explained many times)
Voting Fugitive for the exact same reasons as Konowa (trying to get a wagon going?)
post 459 (puts suspicions on the 4 people that have gotten the most votes)
post 551 (really weak reasoning on voting for sorasgoof, some misrepresentation in his summary)
post 567 (REALLY? He is pretty much admitting that it is a wagon vote and that he was summarizing everyone else’s points to make it look like he was contributing something
I’m thinking that he is scum who gets on wagons and reposts everyone else’s reasons to appear as if he is contributing.

Nicodemus: see Bogre

NavyCherub: makes some good points, but doesn’t post too often (not necessarily a bad thing). Neutral read.

Parama: see above. I’m waiting for the weekend when I hope he will give a content post.

TheLonging: Neutral. He seems to be going back and forth between Richard and sorasgoof and thinks that both are scum.

Also, I apologize to Dizzy. I looked at the posts again and the only thing that seemed off was keeping the vote of CSL.

My top 3 scum (in no particular order):
CCARaven4
diddin
pman5595

Vote: pman5595

[Fugitive]

Sorasgoof hasn't been the only person to call out Pman. I've given thoughts on him (and am still currently voting him), as well as a couple others.

EBWOP:

Scum: I like that you're the only one to call pman out...

I meant out of the 4 people I asked for scum and town lists. Sorry for any confusion.

IF YOU ARE TOWN...YOU WILL QUIT WITH THE FUCKING TOWN LISTS!

I asked 4 people for scum and town lists. TL, sora, diddin, and Richard. That's where they're all coming from...

[pman5595]

post 567 (REALLY? He is pretty much admitting that it is a wagon vote and that he was summarizing everyone else’s points to make it look like he was contributing something
I’m thinking that he is scum who gets on wagons and reposts everyone else’s reasons to appear as if he is contributing.

I explained this in that post and I will re-explain it here. I voted for sorasgoof because I thought he was scum. I had been convinced by the arguments of others.

Answer please: Is there a problem with voting who one thinks is scum?

[ready2rock]

I have 2 things to add on concerning ckd:

1. I realize that Konowa asked you about that, but like I said in the question, that was 10 pages beforehand. You did give an answer that satisfied me though.

2. That vote is not OMGUS for 2 reasons:
a. I provided reasoning
b. I didn't do it right after he voted for me, that might be OMGUS. I did it after he said that I was the better wagon while providing no reasoning. He also was trying to control the town by trying to convince them to start a wagon on me which, as someone pointed out earlier, is not the most pro-town thing to do.

At this point, I find you neutral. You have made your defenses fairly well and there are people acting much scummier at this point.

[ready2rock]

post 567 (REALLY? He is pretty much admitting that it is a wagon vote and that he was summarizing everyone else’s points to make it look like he was contributing something
I’m thinking that he is scum who gets on wagons and reposts everyone else’s reasons to appear as if he is contributing.

I explained this in that post and I will re-explain it here. I voted for sorasgoof because I thought he was scum. I had been convinced by the arguments of others.

Answer please: Is there a problem with voting who one thinks is scum?

No, but there is a problem with trying to appear helpful for the sake of appearing helpful. That is scummy. You could have just quoted other people's posts you agreed with if they said it so well and maybe added a sentence or two of your thoughts and voted. Instead, you provided false information, misinterpreted his posts, and provided very faulty logic overall that sorasgoof easily defended in your vote.

[pman5595]

post 567 (REALLY? He is pretty much admitting that it is a wagon vote and that he was summarizing everyone else’s points to make it look like he was contributing something
I’m thinking that he is scum who gets on wagons and reposts everyone else’s reasons to appear as if he is contributing.

I explained this in that post and I will re-explain it here. I voted for sorasgoof because I thought he was scum. I had been convinced by the arguments of others.

Answer please: Is there a problem with voting who one thinks is scum?

No, but there is a problem with trying to appear helpful for the sake of appearing helpful. That is scummy. You could have just quoted other people's posts you agreed with if they said it so well and maybe added a sentence or two of your thoughts and voted. Instead, you provided false information, misinterpreted his posts, and provided very faulty logic overall that sorasgoof easily defended in your vote.

I believe I mentioned this also. Imagine the outbreak if I voted with no individual reasoning. I would be lynched in 2 minutes.

I disagree that it was false information. I possibly misinterpreted his posts. But I do not think my logic was overall faulty.

[CCARaven4]

EBWOP:

@Raven, I wasn't

that

concerned, I simply wanted to know how many votes. You didn't really even need to bring that up.

Richard was very concerned with who was voting for him and how many people were voting for him, but hasn’t done it anymore since I called him out on it. I think this is a major scum tell, he was being overly paranoid, Richard is on my scum list.

Also, Richard claims JoaT, and the only person who knows that he’s lying is the real JoaT (no, I don’t believe his claim).
Think about it, for scum, JoaT is a great claim, because of the Jacks very specific actions.

And when someone asks him to use his investigation tonight, he, as a mafia member, knows exactly who is and isn’t mafia, so he can claim that he investigated anybody else, and since he knows that person must flip town, he can just say that person flipped town after his investigation.

All right, let's think for a minute. What would be easier for you to fake? An investigation, or simply saying that you were blocked? It doesn't take any thought at all for you to lie and say you were blocked.

It would be even easier to say that he investigated someone he knew was town, because then everyone would believe him, including the person he ‘investigated’. Again, he knows who is town because he’s a member of the mafia.

A one shot protection, that’s even easier to fake, because you know who the mafia is targeting. Even better, the Mafia could just not kill someone one night, and Richard would be able to say that he ‘protected’ them, and everyone would fall for that, hook, line, and sinker, and everyone would be able to think that the doctor was protecting Richard from the mafia.

One shot roleblock is also very easy because he can say that he roleblocked a townie, because, again, he would know who the townies were and weren’t. This could be a little bit tougher because he doesn’t know exactly who the doctors are and such, but he would not have to use the roleblock fake for a pretty long time, because who was going to call for a roleblock?

To be totally honest, I have no idea what a one shot commute is. I just spent about ten minutes on the wiki looking for one shot commute, but I didn’t find anything, so I don’t know anything about this role.

As you guys can see, I think that Richard was very smart to claim JoaT, because it is so easy to fake. From the town’s view, if we were to lynch the real JoaT, then I don’t believe that we are losing as much as we would gain if he were lying.

Curiouskarmadog has really struck me as mafia. He voted ready2rock simply because he said that the JoaT was a powerful town role, and later he posts with

also, R2R is a much better wagon.....

which he never expands on as to why he believes this. Because there haven’t been any nights for him to have investigated R2R, how could ckd know that R2R was mafia?

Very soon after that, he voted sorasgoof because he commented that Richard could be roleblocked tonight. One thing that I liked that ckd did was call out DragonsofSummer on his vote of sorasgoof, because he gave no reason other than “scummy things”.

Later on, ckd voted Richard with little to no analysis.

vote Richard

I had trouble with the claim

I am not liking his posts or votes now.

but I'm definitely going to

FoS: diddin

I approve

Ckd seems extremely hell bent on a diddin lynch. Why? What do you (ckd) know that the rest of us don’t?

On to sorasgoof: I never quite saw what some people saw with him. There are quite a few votes on him, but I think that what happened was he made some comments that were not well liked by a few people, and a major bandwagon followed. I’m not saying that everyone on there is a bandwagoner, but I think that’s what ended up happening this time around. He had some weak defenses from when he was ‘giving mafia ideas’, but I don’t think he was ever giving mafia ideas, I think he was just pointing it out as a possibility for us to look at.

On pman5595: He did an analysis of sorasgoof’s scummy posts, makes a few good points about how sorasgoof gave the mafia ideas, but seriously, as long as the mafia has one semi-intelligent player, they’ll be able to think of that themselves.

Although ckd has asked us to stop about the town lists, I think that they’re very important, just as important as scum lists. If we can narrow down as many people as possible who we think are town and scum, we can hung scum just as easily.

My town list:
Bogre
Annachie
Bball/Nico
Parama

Well I hope that this is enough content for those who have wanted it from me for a while. I’m not gonna make excuses as to why I haven’t posted, but I’ll try to be more active from now on so that Tarballs doesn’t have to prod me to get me to participate.

Really, I think that the most important part of my post was my part on Richard, I put a lot of work into that one.

As if I was going to forget:

Vote: RichardGHP

[CCARaven4]

EBWOP: I forgot to

unvote: TheLonging

before I voted for Richard

[RichardGHP]

EBWOP:

@Raven, I wasn't

that

concerned, I simply wanted to know how many votes. You didn't really even need to bring that up.

Richard was very concerned with who was voting for him and how many people were voting for him, but hasn’t done it anymore since I called him out on it. I think this is a major scum tell, he was being overly paranoid, Richard is on my scum list.

*headdesk*

Since that time, most people unvoted me. Consequently, I'm not as concerned about how many votes are on me. So no, that's not a valid scum-tell.

Also, Richard claims JoaT, and the only person who knows that he’s lying is the real JoaT (no, I don’t believe his claim).
Think about it, for scum, JoaT is a great claim, because of the Jacks very specific actions.

And when someone asks him to use his investigation tonight, he, as a mafia member, knows exactly who is and isn’t mafia, so he can claim that he investigated anybody else, and since he knows that person must flip town, he can just say that person flipped town after his investigation.

So you don't think I deserve a day to prove myself? You seem to be VERY tunnel-visioned here, and from what I see you absolutely can't be convinced that I am town.

[CCARaven4]

EBWOP:

@Raven, I wasn't

that

concerned, I simply wanted to know how many votes. You didn't really even need to bring that up.

Richard was very concerned with who was voting for him and how many people were voting for him, but hasn’t done it anymore since I called him out on it. I think this is a major scum tell, he was being overly paranoid, Richard is on my scum list.

*headdesk*

Since that time, most people unvoted me. Consequently, I'm not as concerned about how many votes are on me. So no, that's not a valid scum-tell.

I was just pointing it out again, I thought it was a scum-tell, and just because people have unvoted you since then doesn't mean that it wasn't still scummy.

Also, Richard claims JoaT, and the only person who knows that he’s lying is the real JoaT (no, I don’t believe his claim).
Think about it, for scum, JoaT is a great claim, because of the Jacks very specific actions.

And when someone asks him to use his investigation tonight, he, as a mafia member, knows exactly who is and isn’t mafia, so he can claim that he investigated anybody else, and since he knows that person must flip town, he can just say that person flipped town after his investigation.

So you don't think I deserve a day to prove myself? You seem to be VERY tunnel-visioned here, and from what I see you absolutely can't be convinced that I am town.

I didn't say you didn't have a day to prove yourself, I'm sure you'll have quite a few days to prove yourself. It does seem like I am hellbent on voting for you and getting you lynched, but I'm completely open to letting you argue your side and listening to what you have to say.

[Nicodemus]

Also, Richard claims JoaT, and the only person who knows that he’s lying is the real JoaT (no, I don’t believe his claim).

This is a closed game. No one knows what roles exist/how many of each role exist. Stop rolefishing.

Stop speculating about Night Actions as well. Please.

Although ckd has asked us to stop about the town lists, I think that they’re very important, just as important as scum lists. If we can narrow down as many people as possible who we think are town and scum, we can hung scum just as easily.

Town lists help no one but scum at this point in the game (and probably at all points of the game tbh). Stop buddying.

Well I hope that this is enough content for those who have wanted it from me for a while. I’m not gonna make excuses as to why I haven’t posted, but I’ll try to be more active from now on so that Tarballs doesn’t have to prod me to get me to participate.

Your motivation for posting should not be avoiding prods. Your motivation for posting should be trying to catch scum.

Your case against Richard (who has claimed a provable role), built entirely on Night Action speculation, reads as extremely scummy to me. Your case against CKD is entirely unfounded. Your calling out twice as many people for being town as for being scum on D1 is unhelpful.

Oh, as if I could forget:

FoS: CCARaven

[RichardGHP]

EBWOP:

@Raven, I wasn't

that

concerned, I simply wanted to know how many votes. You didn't really even need to bring that up.

Richard was very concerned with who was voting for him and how many people were voting for him, but hasn’t done it anymore since I called him out on it. I think this is a major scum tell, he was being overly paranoid, Richard is on my scum list.

*headdesk*

Since that time, most people unvoted me. Consequently, I'm not as concerned about how many votes are on me. So no, that's not a valid scum-tell.

I was just pointing it out again, I thought it was a scum-tell, and just because people have unvoted you since then doesn't mean that it wasn't still scummy.

So let me get this straight: You think that because I have few votes and am not concerned with how many there are, I am scum? Or at least that that is a scum-tell? That does not make sense. If I was still paranoid about people voting for me, wouldn't THAT be a scum-tell? Seeing as how playing for yourself is supposedly scum play, which I'm not really doing, I don't understand where you're coming from here. It's not even that big a deal.

Also, Richard claims JoaT, and the only person who knows that he’s lying is the real JoaT (no, I don’t believe his claim).
Think about it, for scum, JoaT is a great claim, because of the Jacks very specific actions.

And when someone asks him to use his investigation tonight, he, as a mafia member, knows exactly who is and isn’t mafia, so he can claim that he investigated anybody else, and since he knows that person must flip town, he can just say that person flipped town after his investigation.

So you don't think I deserve a day to prove myself? You seem to be VERY tunnel-visioned here, and from what I see you absolutely can't be convinced that I am town.

I didn't say you didn't have a day to prove yourself, I'm sure you'll have quite a few days to prove yourself. It does seem like I am hellbent on voting for you and getting you lynched, but I'm completely open to letting you argue your side and listening to what you have to say.

To tell you the truth, I don't really have a lot to say, unless anyone wants me to answer any questions. I'd rather wait until tomorrow to offer my thoughts, when I will -hopefully- have a scan on someone. Otherwise, I don't really have an opinion to offer at this stage.

[InflatablePie]

Richard was very concerned with who was voting for him and how many people were voting for him, but hasn’t done it anymore since I called him out on it. I think this is a major scum tell, he was being overly paranoid, Richard is on my scum list.

I don't get how being concerned about who is voting you is a scumtell. In addition, Richard is paranoid, like you said. Null tell, IMO.

Also, Richard claims JoaT, and the only person who knows that he’s lying is the real JoaT (no, I don’t believe his claim).
Think about it, for scum, JoaT is a great claim, because of the Jacks very specific actions.

Okay, you don't believe his claim. Cool. However, Jack is a provable, so at most he lives one more day if he really is scum. Not the greatest claim, being that scum's powers is in numbers and the less on the scumteam, the less power they have.

action-by-action stuff

See, if we lynch Richard tomorrow, then we'll know if he's town or scum. If he's scum, we ignore the "scan" or whatever action (since it can be WIFOM), if he's town, there's a possible clear for a protective role to possibly target.

As you guys can see, I think that Richard was very smart to claim JoaT, because it is so easy to fake. From the town’s view, if we were to lynch the real JoaT, then I don’t believe that we are losing as much as we would gain if he were lying.

By that logic, a cop is even easier to fake. He can just fake scans on players until whenever.

Personally, if we are going to lynch a claimed, I would feel safer with lynching a vanilla claim than a possibly PROVABLE power role.

I don't know about ckd. He's a bit odd, but I'm not sure if he's scummy.

Ckd seems extremely hell bent on a diddin lynch. Why? What do you (ckd) know that the rest of us don’t?

ITT: an FoS is hellbent on a lynch.

Town lists, in my eyes, are good for gauging reactions.

Vote: RichardGHP

And another vote for a provable. Although I can't say I like TheLonging's switch to soras, I like this even less.

Vote: CCARaven

I'd also support a diddin or pman lynch at this time. I know, I change my mind a lot.

Sorry for not being here much the past few days, guys.

[InflatablePie]

In addition, a wise pointer.

If your reasoning goes along the lines of, "He's scum, so this is scummy" or even "He's town, so this is pro-town", there's something wrong.

[CCARaven4]

EBWOP:

@Raven, I wasn't

that

concerned, I simply wanted to know how many votes. You didn't really even need to bring that up.

Richard was very concerned with who was voting for him and how many people were voting for him, but hasn’t done it anymore since I called him out on it. I think this is a major scum tell, he was being overly paranoid, Richard is on my scum list.

*headdesk*

Since that time, most people unvoted me. Consequently, I'm not as concerned about how many votes are on me. So no, that's not a valid scum-tell.

I was just pointing it out again, I thought it was a scum-tell, and just because people have unvoted you since then doesn't mean that it wasn't still scummy.

So let me get this straight: You think that because I have few votes and am not concerned with how many there are, I am scum? Or at least that that is a scum-tell? That does not make sense. If I was still paranoid about people voting for me, wouldn't THAT be a scum-tell? Seeing as how playing for yourself is supposedly scum play, which I'm not really doing, I don't understand where you're coming from here. It's not even that big a deal.

Also, Richard claims JoaT, and the only person who knows that he’s lying is the real JoaT (no, I don’t believe his claim).
Think about it, for scum, JoaT is a great claim, because of the Jacks very specific actions.

And when someone asks him to use his investigation tonight, he, as a mafia member, knows exactly who is and isn’t mafia, so he can claim that he investigated anybody else, and since he knows that person must flip town, he can just say that person flipped town after his investigation.

So you don't think I deserve a day to prove myself? You seem to be VERY tunnel-visioned here, and from what I see you absolutely can't be convinced that I am town.

I didn't say you didn't have a day to prove yourself, I'm sure you'll have quite a few days to prove yourself. It does seem like I am hellbent on voting for you and getting you lynched, but I'm completely open to letting you argue your side and listening to what you have to say.

To tell you the truth, I don't really have a lot to say, unless anyone wants me to answer any questions. I'd rather wait until tomorrow to offer my thoughts, when I will -hopefully- have a scan on someone. Otherwise, I don't really have an opinion to offer at this stage.

I'm not reading too much into you wanting to know about your vote totals, it was just something I noticed, I didn't mean for it to be such a big thing.

@Nicodemus: Town lists don't help us at all? I know when I see someone thinking that someone like Parama or Pie or Fugitive is pro-town, then it helps me just as much as a scum list.

@Pie: I agree with you about letting him have a 'night' to prove himself, we can actually let him do work for us, whether or not he is town. I understand that point. My logic does say that a cop is really easy to fake, and I agree with that; if you are mafia, claiming cop is a really easy fake. I see your point about a vanilla claim, because vanilla is such an easy claim for a mafia member. I just saw JoaT as a pretty easy fake claim as well because of how it could deflect suspicion and one can fake it so easily. And because a lot of people were very suspicious of Longing for claiming VT, it would be smart for Richard to claim JoaT. It was a longshot, but I thought it was something worth mentioning.

[Annachie]

Richard. If lurking is the way you usually play D1, how do you explain this game?

[Bogre]

@CCARaven:

Your post looks like a big, faulty mess of an attempt to make RichardGHP look like a fakeclaimer. As Nicodemus said, we don't know what roles are in the game, and speculating at this point is anti-town.

Secondly, Scum can't fake a roleblock that easily, they don't know who the townies are and who the PR's are (which is why speculating is bad, it gives them info as to who they may be).

Third- Pie is completely correct. Richard should drop his investigation, and then can be lynched to see if we can get a confirmed townie. He shouldn't be lynched today.

[TheLonging]

So basically Pie, what you are saying is that, provided his claim is right, we let him use 1 of his 4 abilities and then lynch him without regarding his OTHER 3 abilities? I don't know, that doesn't really sit right. Of course if you lynch him, you can prove if he's a confirmed townie, but then what happens to the other 3 abilities he was given that you completely disregard?