Mini 909: Nice'n'Fun Mafia (Game Over)

[Mindgamer]

/confirm

[Mindgamer]

Vote: Hitogoroshi

Since early bandwagons are full of win.

[Mindgamer]

First impressions are very important. Surely The Tracker would be careful not to make such a stupid mistake in his first post. It's a joke, pay attention to behaviour that is worth discussing.

[Mindgamer]

Surely The Tracker would be careful not to make such a stupid mistake in his first post. It's a joke, pay attention to behaviour that is worth discussing.

Thanks for this post, it may prove useful down the line.

You're welcome.

Surely The Tracker would be careful not to make such a stupid mistake in his first post. It's a joke, pay attention to behaviour that is worth discussing.

This is unabashedly defensive and definitely dismissal. What behavior is more worth discussing than this? Back up your claim. [/quote]

Defensive? I'm simply stating that discussing a possible hidden message in a joke in RVS is a waste of effort. What else is more worth discussion? Well, about everything else I'd say. Please tell me why you think a joke, in particular one in RVS, can be a strong scumtell.

[Mindgamer]

Well, about everything else I'd say. Please tell me why you think a joke, in particular one in RVS, can be a strong scumtell.

Everything else? So nothing done during the RVS can be scummy? I don't understand; Can you provide me with specific behavior that was more worth discussing?

I see the RVS as a PreGame phase where everyone can make a funny remark without having to put their serious faces on. You could get out of the RVS by asking questions, talking about the meta of players et cetera. That's what you should do if you want to start a serious discussion, not attacking a RVS joke.

[Mindgamer]

Haven't seen cathart or mindgamer since the miller claim.

Yeah sorry. I have a few tests coming up and I don't really have the time for mafia games. To make things worse I'm going to have to

V/LA untill the 20th.

I promise I'll be at full activity from the 20th on.

[Mindgamer]

I'm back.

Since a lot of posts have been made since my departure, I will only comment on the main debates for now. If you want to ask me questions or want my opinion on something, please say so and I will reply to you.

First, I still think The Tracker was joking. If he was not joking, I am obvscum according to his logic.

Vote: Mindgamer.

Bandwagoning for early mislynch, making him obvscum.

Calling it a joke or whatever is wrong.

The fact that The Tracker denies that he was joking under pressure, makes me very suspicious of him. I would expect a townie to just shake the comments off, but The Tracker bows to the crowd by saying he was not joking. The sentence is a joke, there is no way around it. The Tracker, tell me, were you joking or not when you called me obvscum?

Second, the Quagmire debate.
I despise his tactic. If everyone were to use his tactic, the game would become unplayable. I would vote for him to show my disgust, but I won't since my vote would bring him to L-1, which is too close to a lynch. Lynching annoying players is not part of my win condition, so I don't want Quagmire to be lynched. I suggest the other players on the wagon think about this too. If you are really troubled by Quagmire's attitude, just deal with it this game and remember to not enter a game with Quagmire again.

No one can know what Quagmire's alignment is, except for scumbuddies in case Quagmire is scum. That is why defending Quagmire is suspicious (why would anyone be defending such a gamebreaking strategy?). Note that I myself am not defending what Quagmire is doing, I'm saying that lynching for the purpose of losing an annoying person is not in the town's favour.

if it's his playstyle, it's his play style. There are far far worse play styles out there and he is now contributing.

I'm happy that someone tries to stop the lynch on Quagmire, but why would you go as far as actually defending his playstyle directly? A bit over enthusiastic scumbuddy perhaps? It's not much, but I feel comfortable having my vote on you for the moment.

Unvote. Vote: Angelmouse

[Mindgamer]

The Tracker's role claim is interesting. It's not a very safe role to claim, so I believe it to be true for the moment. If there are two nightkills tonight, The Tracker's role is pretty much confirmed. If there is only one nightkill, The Tracker would be more suspicious, because I don't think the mafia/SK would waste their nightkill only to raise suspicion on The Tracker. Though the chance that we have an FBI Agent without a Serial Killer also exists, of course.

A lynch is better than no lynch. Thus a Quagmire lynch is better than no lynch. I'm not happy with it, so I won't hammer Quagmire until 60 minutes before deadline (the site is way too glitchy to do it any later).

[Mindgamer]

Well I mean, if Quag is sick of mafia, it's the right move to get him now rather than dragging him along.

This is a waste of a lynch. Quagmire's participation in this game is his responsibility, not ours. If he feels he no longer has the motivation to go on, he should ask for a replacement.

We've got...14 hours until deadline? I'd vote quag now but it'd be the hammer so I'll stay the lynch a bit. I'll be here all day so there's no rush - though with the site issues I might do it a few hours before deadline to be safe.

On the occasion of such a vague lynch, we should use all the time we have. I agree that we should not wait until the last moment, which is why I will hammer 60 minutes before deadline, but a few hours is too much. Who knows, maybe something interesting will be said in those few hours? I'm sure the moderator will be lenient on us if the site happens to be unaccessable for multiple hours at the time of deadline.

[Mindgamer]

Only one night kill?

Vote: The Tracker

[Mindgamer]

Good shit, I should not have signed up for two games at the same time. Simply don't have the time to keep track of them both. I have some time tomorrow morning though, so I will reread the game and post my opinion on the current situation.

I fail to imagine a set-up where an SK can currently exist. Trying to balance a mini-normal with three killing roles is ridiculous, even for someone zany like Cruciare. Without an NK now, it isn't even worth considering.

This makes sense.

Unvote

[Mindgamer]

I think we should stop the discussion about the game setup, at least for now. It hasn't brought us anywhere. Roles are important, but talking about behaviour is much more useful in my opinion.

However, I'm really liking the Mindgamer wagon now. He wasn't really that involved yesterday, and didn't take a stand on anything.

That's not entirely true. I did express my opinion on the Quagmire wagon and I made a vote for Angelmouse. Why would you use such a weak argument for a vote on me when there are so much better reasons?

Here's a pop quiz for RedCoyote (and anyone else who wants to be awesome);


1. If Tracker's claim is found to be fake, is Hoopla's claim more likely to be real or fake?
2. If Hoopla's claim is found to be fake, is Tracker's claim more likely to be fake or real?
3. If Tracker's claim is found to be real, is Hoopla's claim more likely to be fake or real?
4. If Hoopla's claim is found to be real, is Tracker's claim more likely to be fake or real?
5. Which is a more likely combination; Tracker/Cop or CPR Doctor/SK?
6. Which is a more likely combination; no cop/SK, SK but no cop, Cop but no SK, Cop and SK?
7. If neither a cop or SK exist in this set-up, which is more likely; an FBI agent, a miller, both miller and FBI, or neither roles?

Remember to show your work.

Too much talk about the roles wil distract us from any real scumhunting. This quiz takes that to the extreme. 'Show your work'. So we should put some serious effort into studying the game setup and stop looking for scumtells? Not really protown imo.

First, Mindgamer's 180 on me. Yes, I know angel also voted me, but she's consistent in her decision. Mindgamer seems to be saying 'Well, looks like we can try for an early lynch with this guy.' I would like to see his reasoning for that.

No, it was just a weak vote. I was certainly suspicious of you at the moment but I was mainly voting because I wanted to do something and see how you and others would respond. The three killing roles argument changed my mind however, it makes good sense for you to be a real FBI Agent. And I got the responses I wanted. For sure one of the three voters is scum, and I'm mainly looking at Nachomamma8 for his weak reasoning.

I have made a table of the voting patterns of Day 1. Enjoy.



Dag = Day
Persoon = Person
Bericht = Post
Naar = To
Van = From
Aantal = Number of posts

[Mindgamer]

Mindgamer - that post you just put up is classic smokescreening - it seems like it would be useful, but in all reality, it is useless information and just keeps you further distanced from the game.

I'm seeing the points about Mindgamer reading back through. His posts look incredibly busy on the surface, but when I sat back and actually had a chance to read them, I found they had less content than an unhappy marraige (homograph metaphor...huh.)

Should I just ask for a replacement then? I try my best with the time I have, but it's not appreciated. Apparently I'm not making the game enjoyable for you and you certainly aren't making the game enjoyable for me.
Replacement? Your choice.

[Mindgamer]

Don't take it personal, Mindgamer. If you feel overburdened, then by all means replace out, but no one here is trying to attack you as a person. There's a definite line between thinking what you did is or isn't scummy and thinking you are making the game non-enjoyable, and so far as I can tell no one thinks you are making the game non-enjoyable.

Ok, then I will stay.

I don't really know what to say at this moment, so I will do what everyone is doing: Tell town and scum reads.
I don't really trust Nachomamma8 and Cruelty. I think Hitogoroshi is town, because he hammered Quagmire while I said I would hammer him. If he were mafia, he would much rather let me hammer Quagmire than hammering himself. A hammer on a townie before deadline is always suspicious.

[Mindgamer]

He seems to be cracking under pressure a bit.

Could you elaborate on this?

[Mindgamer]

L-1? Roleclaim time I guess.
Vanilla Townie

I'm probably going to be lynched at this point in time (lynching Day 1 because someone is not reading his role PM and lynching Day 2 because someone is smokescreening. Wow, amazing townplay here), but that won't stop me from posting some last bits.

EdFrost.

ISO 11: Mindgamer may be the favorite to lynch (I agree that mindgamer is scummy), but that shouldn't maintain sole focus when there are other things to consider as well.

EdFrost states here that I'm a good lynch candidate, but tries to convince the other players that other important things should be considered before the lynch. He doesn't say what those things are.

ISO 13: Since mindgamer has been scummy from the get go (offering up an unneeded defense of tracker) throughout the midgame (believing a claim due to "rareness") and currently (voting a "believed" *power role* at the beginning of the day, discouraging setup speculation and the amazing Wall of no Analysis (tm) vote count), I believe that we have our lynch for today.

Wow, complete 180. Why should we discuss any further? I'm scummy so my lynch is all we need for the rest of the day. What happened to those 'other things to consider'?

ISO 15: Well, Tracker was questioned, nothing mindgamer says anymore will really matter, watching what hoopla and Red have to say to each other, and not especially pleased with the fact that other people aren't chiming in as much to question them.

Ah, so those are the 'other things to consider'. A question to Tracker (EdFrost is apparently satisfied with a completely useless result. He delayed his vote for 'don't twist mah words!'?) and watching Hoopla vs RedCoyote. Yeah, really important stuff.


Take a look at this tomorrow if you decide to lynch me before this can be discussed.


And a question:

Wouldn't the people who did lynch him receive more blame for actually lynching him and whiting out the town with arguments about something non-game related be scummier than somebody who saw what was happening?

This seems like a rhetorical question, though I disagree. In the case of a policy lynch, everyone who did nothing to stop the Quagmire lynch is just as guilty as those who voted for him. Why would those who voted for him be the ones to blame when Quagmire flipped town? Would they also be the heroes if Quagmire flipped scum? Explain your logic.

[Mindgamer]

I was interested in Hoopla's responding as I side more with RC in their debate. That's important as well as my own questioning. What's your point?

Finally, to the question: Quag DIDN'T turn scum, he turned town. That's the point. He was a townie and his playstyle made it easy for anybody on the wagon to be "justified" in their vote. However, Hoopla is criticizing somebody off the wagon who was rather strong in his stance that Quag was not the correct lynch for the day. Therefore your point about "everyone who did nothing to stop the Quag lynch" is pointless as well.

Fail attempt at trying to tie yourself to me. Unless the rest of you talkative *cough cough* people have anything else to say, can we just lynch him now?

My point is that you first tell people to not pay full attention to me, and then one post later you go pushing for a lynch. A full 180 without any reason. What changed your thoughts? It certainly wasn't 'other things to consider'. Your personal interest in a post and a question are not a reason why the town should stop looking at me.

Hoopa is critisizing RedCoyote and therefore my statement 'everyone who did nothing to stop the lynch is equally guilty'is false. Please elaborate on this.

Vote: EdFrost

Oh, and before anyone jumps off their seat again: This is just a normal L-5 vote. I'm not trying to quicklynch EdFrost.

Faraday looks town to me. He posts good content, good questions and a reasonable case just after he comes in. He's acting really protown and my bandwagon is less in the center of attention (which is good, because I am TOWN).

However, I do not really agree on the RedCoyote bandwagon. I must also admit that I have not read it really carefully though. I have a headache now but it will be gone this evening (I hope) so I will give my full opinion on the wagon later today.

Mindgamer finally came up with a single good content post at L-1 but I think that more than anything else contrasts with the fact that he hasn't really done anything else the whole game. If mindgamer knows what content looks like (as this post would seem to indicate) the fact that he apparently decided it wasn't worth his time to do so for the first day and a half speaks pretty strongly about where his loyalties lie.

I explained earlier that I overestimated my amount of time and that I was having trouble keeping up with two games at the same time. Maybe you took a look at my other game (Newbie 881) and noticed I was posting much better content there than I was posting here. You probably thought I was a scumhunting townie there and and scum trying to stay under the radar here. It's actually the other way around. In N881 I needed to post well as I was the only scum left. Here, I could let my fellow townies do the hard work. Not completely fair of course, but as I explained: I overestimated my amount of time and I apologize for that. Now that N881 has finished I have the time to post regularly here.

Still, I'm at L-1. So I will once again post my opinions on the current situation.

Town: Faraday.
Neutral: AGar, Cruelty, Hitogoroshi, Hoopla, Nachomamma8, RedCoyote.
Scum: EdFrost, The Tracker.

[Mindgamer]

I feel like Mindgamer is trying to reverse-meta himself out of a lynch in that last post like "Look! Look! I was scum in the other game, and I posted a whole ton there, and now here I don't post a lot, so I'm not scum!"

Have you read my post or did you only skim it? It's nothing like that. I assume you have only skimmed it, so I will summarize the essence for you:
I didn't have enough time to post content in two games at the same time. I decided to give Newbie 881 more attention than Mini 909. Now that N881 has ended, I can give M909 my full focus.

Going to read the RedCoyote case now.

[Mindgamer]

I still don't see the big thing which would make RedCoyote scum. The cases are collections of little scumtells as far as I can see. What exactly is the convincing argument for a RedCoyote vote?

Maybe it's just because I have barely read the first 15 pages and am missing the big picture. I will do a reread of the game tomorrow.

[Mindgamer]

The only problem i have is the amount of neutral reads. Can you flesh those out a bit more? I don't buy you don't have some read on at least some of them.

I don't really have the time to answer this right now, but I will give you a short answer since L-1 means every minute can be my last.

AGar: Difficult, but at the moment I'm leaning more towards scum. I find the arguments in his last post to be really weak, it's almost seems like he is desperate to give a final push to 'finish the job'.

Cruelty: His posts are short and don't have much content (unlike mine ), but his latest post makes me think of him as somehwat more town. His irony is allmost troll-like, and I don't think a scum would behave like that. WIFOM perhaps, but I don't care.

Hitogoroshi: Very critical, good content. He seems to be constantly on the search for scum.

Hoopla: Completely neutral at the moment. I will take a closer look on the reread.

Nachomamma8: Also neutral. He disappeared before I became active so I don't know much about him. More after reread.

[Mindgamer]

I've reread the game and I can see where the people of the RedCoyote wagon are coming from, but I still think there are just better lynch candidates. We shouldn't only keep an eye on existing wagons just because we're close to deadline.

Most of RedCoyote's scummy behaviour has already been pointed out, but I'd like to add 2 small cents.

angel 202 wrote:
Quag is getting some heat for this and i am totally convinced there is at least one scum on the wagon for his lynch and will be one of those pushing for it.

I love this statement to death. This is the kind of critical thinking that I think the game has been lacking.

Scum being on a wagon, whether a person would flip town or scum, seems obvious to me. This certainly isn't critical thinking imo.

I'm serious about my cruelty vote. It isn't a joke or anything like that, if that's what y'all may have been thinking.

I'd also be comfortable with a Mindgamer, Flare, Hoopla, or possibly a Nacho lynch.

You're OK with lynching half the player roster... I would expect a townie to put some more thought into determining who's town and who's scum.


On the reread I found that Hoopla is mainly asking questions. But she is also taking most of the initiative, which seems to be lacking a bit in this game. At the moment I think Hoopla is town.

I found it quite hard to get a read on Nachomamma8 but his replacement solves that problem.
Horrordude0215's player conclusions make no sense to me. Look at his The Tracker paragraph. He sums up a few facts, and concludes those with 'maybe town'. Why? He hasn't explained anything yet. He's a newbie though so flawed conclusions are not necessarily a scumtell in this case. What worries me more is his analysis of me. At first it looks like he is genuinely analysing me in ISO, but his analysis conveniently stops at the exact post I start participating in this game. Why? Why isn't he commenting on my actual content? His analysis looks more like a subconscious case to me.

The best part is this though:

Also, he hasn't interacted with Hoopla a whole lot, and she hasn't interacted with him at all. If he's mafia, there's a high chance Hoopla is as well. If he flips town, Hoopla's more likely to be the SK and just getting town points for opposing Mind's lynch.

In other words: If Mindgamer flips scum, we must eliminate Hoopla. If Mindgamer flips town, we must eliminate Hoopla.
What the heck?

If you're a townie, I hope you can understand why I had to push your wagon and I hope next time we play together you open with this kind of content.

'Mindgamer might be town but I'm keeping my vote on him because we don't have much time left'
This doesn't differ much from a policy lynch, does it. So I ask the following question to everyone on my bandwagon to prevent another lynch with easy excuses: Now that you have read my recent posts, do you keep your vote on me because you still think I am scum, or because time's up?

[Mindgamer]

Let's take a look at my bandwagon.
AGar: Has barely been posting lately.
Nachomamma8: Hasn't been posting lately and his replacement replaces out after one post.
The Tracker: Hasn't been posting lately and replaces out now.
Hitogoroshi: Keeps his vote on me because of time pressure.
EdFrost: The only genuine voter.
And Hoopla ready to lynch me only in fear of a no lynch...

Sorry, but this is bullshit.

Moderator: Same question as AGar. Could we get a deadline extension? It seems more than reasonable at this point.

[Mindgamer]

Mindgamer, if I'm the

only

genuine voter, then what are your reasons for voting me? Obv, it's no based off of the wagon on you, so you'll have to explain quite well what your reasoning for finding me scummy is.

I like this point.

Like Hoopla said, this is a good point.

I disagree with Mindgamer, I don't think Edfrost has 'honest reasons' for being on your bandwagon at all. It looked like he just wanted to end the day after deciding he wouldn't get much flak for jumping on ya.

Apparently I made a mistake in translation here. With 'genuine' I meant something like 'serious'. I don't really know the word for it. Point is that all the voters on my wagon were either absent or feeling time pressure, and EdFrost was the only voter who was active and voting for a 'scum' reason, which made his vote the only 'serious' one on my wagon. I don't think he has honest reasons at all. Quite the contrary, because I think he's scum.

If you don't come back, then I hope Mindgamer is happy scaring you away.

As good as a replacement Horrordude0215 is, he was posting scummy reasoning. Should I ignore that just because he's a newbie? Of course not. I think his departure is indicative of his alignment though. If he was scum, he would just try to counter my arguments. But if he was town , he could think he was doing a poor job because I was pointing out flaws. This makes me think the Nachomamma8/Horrordude0215 slot is likely town.

By the way, with only one finished game my official status is still Newbie, just like Horrordude0215. Why do I bring this up? Because the way you deal with newbies being attacked is quite inconsistent. Remember when The Tracker attacked me with sentences like 'The content of Mindgamer's post is like an unhappy marriage?'? You gave the following response to me:

Don't take it personal, Mindgamer.

Yet now that I attack Horrordude0215 WITHOUT insults, you act like it's my fault. That's quite contrasting behaviour. I see two possible explanations:

1. You're scum and The Tracker is your scumbuddy. You're not going to make your scumbuddy look bad, but of course it's very helpful to put a townie in a bad daylight.
2. You like The Tracker and dislike me.

Which is it?

This coupled with Mindgamer's "I don't agree with the RC lynch... but here are some more scumtells to keep it going *wink wink*" have rubbed me the wrong way.

Hmm? As a townie it's my job to look for scumtells everywhere and share them with everyone, especially when I'm so close to a lynch. Should I ignore you just because I don't have a scumread on you? Don't be so ridiculous.

Edfrost has manuevered his way to my second strongest town read.

Could you explain why?

[Mindgamer]

1. You're scum and The Tracker is your scumbuddy. You're not going to make your scumbuddy look bad, but of course it's very helpful to put a townie in a bad daylight.
2. You like The Tracker and dislike me.

mate I got a spare seat on the wagon if you're keen.

What do you mean? Did I say something wrong?

If he was vanilla, why didn't he play this way throughout the game? It obviously would've been better for the town, might've lead to a better lynch than Quag day 1 because of poking and prodding. (...) Now that he was forced into claiming vanilla he's suddenly helpful? Sorry if I'm skeptical that you change your playstyle in the middle of the day cause you had to claim.

What an ignorant post. First, let me quote the answer, which you have 'forgotten' for some reason.

I explained earlier that I overestimated my amount of time and that I was having trouble keeping up with two games at the same time. (...) Now that N881 has finished I have the time to post regularly here.

Second, opinion on me has changed because I am now posting content, not because I claimed Vanilla.
Third, what would make a powerrole claim impossible? What if I had claimed Town Roleblocker, for example? What would you have done to prove this invalid?

[Mindgamer]

I'd actually be ok with a Faraday lynch since the Mindgamer wagon stalled hardcore. I still don't like it happening, but I'm feeling like I might have to compromise here to make things work out.

Could you explain why you would be ok with a Faraday lynch? You haven't said anything about him at all yet.

Also, for anyone who hasn't played with each of these two characters - both are very clever, skilled players. It's a pretty big threat that they're combined.

Two skilled players combined... that can mean either a big help or a big threat. What makes you think EdFrost is a big threat? Do you have a scum read on him/them?

I'm not going to participate in a Faraday lynch, because he's my strongest town read at the moment. My scumlist at the moment is as follows:

Strong Town: Faraday
Town: Cruelty, Hitogoroshi, Hoopla
Neutral-Town: Nachomamma8
Neutral-Scum: RedCoyote
Scum: AGar, The Tracker
Strong Scum: EdFrost

[Mindgamer]

I'm not really happy with a RedCoyote or Cruelty lynch. But if it will come down to it, I will hammer either of them since a lynch will give us a lot of information, and we seem to be quite stuck on what to do without that information. RedCoyote > Cruelty in terms of scummyness.

@ Hitogoroshi
Your post doesn't convince me. All you've shown is that Cruelty is a bad townie and that he's scum because he continues his behaviour. Why is this so important to you? Don't you have any significant scum reads on other players?

ell oh ell, reasoning is tech, mindgamer.

Excuse me, what does tech mean?

I will be online for about six hours from now. Then I'll go to sleep, and I'll wake up one and a half hour before deadline.

[Mindgamer]

I'm here, but it doesn't matter...

[Mindgamer]

Strong Town: Faraday
Town: Cruelty, Hitogoroshi, Hoopla
Neutral-Town: Nachomamma8
Neutral-Scum: RedCoyote
Scum: AGar, The Tracker
Strong Scum: EdFrost

hitogoroshi,

Mafia Goon

, survived
Hoopla,

Mafia Goon

, survived
Faraday,

Mafia Watcher

, survived

Epic failure.

Anyway, congratulations.