Open 188 - Tweed Mafia - Over!


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Post Post #350 (ISO) » Sun Jan 03, 2010 2:37 pm

Post by farside22 »

I will get to the complete 305 post when I'm feeling better I have been sick today.
farside: in post 40, she tries to gloss over Kitty asking Zach what behaviour he finds scummy. Zach was absolutely right not to answer that question whether he's town or scum, because it only helps scum. So, why was farside so eager to get an answer to the question in the face of a reasonable objection to it? And so eager to vote for Zach when he wouldn't answer it? Then she unvoted
Zach when confronted with the obvious answer - i.e. that it only helps scum
looking at the first paragraph you are claiming I am voting for zach for not answering a question but I voted him for voting on kitytmo for poor reasoning. I saw nothing wrong with her post about voting for the first person who did an RVS.
which i said in 14 this was before kittymo question. so all this statement has nothing ti do with my vote on zach
the rest of your comments towards me will have to wait till tomorrow
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Post Post #351 (ISO) » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:33 pm

Post by Jazzmyn »

Zachrulez wrote:That's really bad actually. Trying to make the case about one point and trying to defeat that one point in order to say that you don't have a case at all.
Indeed, that is precisely what farside is trying to do, which has scummy written all over it.
farside22 wrote:I will get to the complete 305 post when I'm feeling better I have been sick today.
And once you've done that, I'd like you to also get to my 313, 325, 332, and 340 as well.
MrSuave wrote:I see this thread has no mercy for new years and world wide holidays. I see I see. well I'm going to catch up on my games and I'll post when I've done that.
Some actual content would be nice.

Regards,
Jazz
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Post Post #352 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:04 am

Post by farside22 »

Jazzmyn wrote:
farside22 wrote:In other words Jazz most of your case is based on my clarification of what Lowell is proposing.
No, it isn't. See my post 305 and subsequent posts.

Regards,
Jazz
Just a note I looked over everyting after 305 and it's just us arguing about the hypo claim. If I missed something you feel I didnt' answer please state what it was.
Going over 305 in completion next.
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Post Post #353 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:16 am

Post by farside22 »

Jazzmyn wrote: After saying that meta is over-rated and that she doesn't use it, she then does nothing but talk about meta in half of her posts and she uses it to justify her votes. She voted for Nikanor on the basis of MrS's purported meta on Nikanor, but she never looked to see if it was accurate. Later, she voted for MrS purportedly because the meta he presented on Nikanor was not accurate. (Want to bet whether she actually read the links provided? My money says a resounding 'no'.) So, she claims that meta is useless and then relies upon nothing but meta to vote both Nikanor and MrS. This is scummy.
farside22 wrote:Most of the talk is either Kitty and what she did or meta talk. It's hard to get away from meta talk when people are using it as a basis.
My vote on Suave is because he is misrepresenting how Nik act when town vs scum.
I glanced at the games in question that mrsuave brought up. Did I read the games in full. No I never do go that far. I'm a lazy townie look it up in any game.


Then there is her weird question about "what is the best way to get out of RVS?" which is misplaced and entirely useless, but her explanation for it is utterly ridiculous. To me, it looks like she posed the question to give cover to scumbuddies, and to look like she was participating meaningfully in the game while in fact she was not. See her eventual, belated response to yabba's question on this in her post 225. It doesn't even begin to make sense. This, to me, looks like scum scrambling to cover up for a bad move. (As an aside, I also note that she said it was a question from Zach when it was actually a question from yabba - don't know why that is, but just noting it.)
farside22 wrote: There was about 3 or 4 people questioning kittymo on her opening and her reasoning. I wanted to see how other people would suggest getting out of the RVS if kitty's play was so scummy then for example why did no one target scorpion with is self vote. Basically what I wanted to see is what people do in order to trap scum. I see it more often than not.
So no I was actually trying hard to get away from meta talks more then anything. People were either saying kitty was scum for her comment or talking meta.


In 141, she simply regurgitates points that others had already made, again to me it looks like she's just trying to pretend to scumhunt.
In 140 Mr.Suave asked what question. I quoted the question in 141. I don't see your point here.

Then after SC telegraphs in his post 150 that he is going to vote for MrS, farside immediately votes for MrS. Classic scum move - see where someone's vote is likely to go and then go there yourself first so that you're on the wagon earlier and not in a position of having to hammer later on.


Would you like some wine with that cheese? I voted for Suave for his misinterperpation of meta on Nik.
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Post Post #354 (ISO) » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:04 pm

Post by DTMaster »

Sorry. I was busy preping for school and winding down from lots of work. Some mod work to do.

1. Prod sent to KittyMo and MrSuave and nhammen
2. LL did not respond to the prod, finding a replacement.
3. A mod ruling due to time frame, I am doing 3 week deadlines due to the hectic schedule of school starting again.

Vote count:

XScorpion (0) -
Lowell (2) - XScorpion, Zachrulez,
StrangerCoug (0) -
MrSuave (1) - farside22
Nikanor (0) -
Locke Lamora(0)
nhammen (0)
KittyMo (0) -
Zachrulez (1) - Lowell
farside22 (2) - Jazzmyn, Strangercoug
Jazzmyn (0)

Not Voting (0)
MrSuave, Nikanor, Locke Lamora, nhammen, KittyMo

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline set 19/01/10
Last edited by DTMaster on Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #355 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:53 am

Post by farside22 »

mod you missed SC's unvote and vote of me in your vote count.

Thank you
StrangerCoug wrote:
Unvote: Lowell
Vote: farside22
I will have a scum list later today

I'll fix the above vote count. Thanks - DTM
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Post Post #356 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:07 am

Post by Nikanor »

The internet guy couldn't fix anything yesterday, so I have to wait until Wednesday for the guy who actually knows how to do his job. >_>
Sorry about this, folks.
I am in the bottom 10% of scumhunters onsite!
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Post Post #357 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:47 am

Post by farside22 »

nhammen/ Scott Brosius -
nhammen replaced scott says he is going to read but his first post just seems meh
nhammen wrote:
XScorpion wrote:P.S. Today is the first day I actually read the whole thread. Does anyone want to explain why my insanely anti-town behaviour hasn't warranted a single vote? At most I got a few slaps on the wrists from Yabba and Locke, but really...I mean, if I was anyone else in this game, I would probably be voting myself already out of policy (oh wait, I already did. Lol.) Just pointing out that it seems strange for there to be so much discussion about certain players, yet if I was scum (and wasn't acting like a jackass with my anti-townness) I would breeze through day 1 almost completely unnoticed.
WIFOM!
Zachrulez wrote:Deadline's in 3 days guys, we might want to come to a consensus on a lynch here.

Unvote: Vote: Lowell
Why him, rather than Suave or XScorp?
Zachrulez wrote:You have the same amount of votes.

I picked you because I am more suspicious of you.
Same amount after your vote. And you saying you are more suspicious of him is meaningless if you don't back this up with reasons. Looks like avoiding the question to me.

Scummiest players:
Zach
XScorp
Suave

unvote
vote Zach


I am willing to change to Suave at deadline.
I really (1) don't see how this is a case against zach and (2) why he would vote for suave so easily without cause.
nhammen wrote:BTW a Zach Suave pairing looks likely from ISOing Zach. But that could just be buddying.
I don't understand this statement

nvm it seems it was another player that did this. but was is ISO?
Talks about the nightkill it's really WIFOM - read so for null. I would say the williness to switch to suawve, vote for lowell and then say a no lynch might be best and to analysis the night kill could be a small way from nhamm scum with lowell but he didn't unvote. Overall I don't feel confident either way to say.


KittyMo - first post of the game in order to threaten anyone from RVS. She gets pressure from others about this comment and seems to not come off without clear reasoning on my read. She gets more pressure votes because of her comment here:
KittyMo wrote:
yabbaguy wrote:See, I thought you had a purpose of some convoluted sort. I thought you were operating under the belief that somehow the responses were going to get us somewhere, hence "now what?"
Actually, I was planning to just wing it. (Which I guess is an oxymoron.) It would certainly help if more than 4 people had actually answered the questions.
Since I apparently fail so much, what better plan would you like to grace us with?
kitty wrote:And Lowell - I've been getting bad vibes from him since his first post, and nothing he's said since has eased that.
Vote: Lowell
. Why don't you start playing better now? Why do we have to wait for you to do that tomorrow?
No quote. just taking about his play and not having anything to back it up here.

There is the long post were kitty cross's with scorpion that bothers me.
First her unvote for SC. Not sure what SC said/did or would promt an unvote without a back up vote or something tangible to go on. She has mention in this post of people and their cases but doesn't really touch on them much.

About a week later is a scum list now with some insights. I note that SC is on this list.....makes me question that unvote all over again.
Her vote for lowell is just weak.
So far no comments from today. Leaning neutral to scum

Jazzmyn /jasonT1981 - jason was pretty nonexsist in the game. Jazz takes over and does a read of each player. Outlines reason, comments and causes of her read. Can't say I agree with everything but overall town read.


Locke Lamora - very few post. It's hard to get a read on someone with just 5 post. Suggest a replacement stat!
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Post Post #358 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:54 am

Post by Zachrulez »

It would really be nice if the half of the players that aren't playing would actually start playing.

Just a thought...
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Post Post #359 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:55 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

Zachrulez wrote:It would really be nice if the half of the players that aren't playing would actually start playing.

Just a thought...
The last two times I checked this thread, I thought I was dead and didn't have any comment in that order. But yes, the game needs to pick up.

farside22 and Lowell are scum, with MrSuave and XScorpion being somewhat good candidates as the other one. I don't have a strong read either way on anyone else.
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Post Post #360 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:38 pm

Post by MrSuave »

well, apparently this town needs my input. hm... I don't agree with you that I am scum, but I do agree this game needs some excitment. the whole no lynch at the end of day one was epic phailure, and game us no information. we need to put someone up in a tree to get something hard to pick appart. that's my opinion anyway.
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Post Post #361 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:47 pm

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MrSuave wrote:well, apparently this town needs my input. hm... I don't agree with you that I am scum, but I do agree this game needs some excitment. the whole no lynch at the end of day one was epic phailure, and game us no information. we need to put someone up in a tree to get something hard to pick appart. that's my opinion anyway.
And who do you think that person should be?
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Post Post #362 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:48 pm

Post by XScorpion »

strangercoug wrote:farside22 and Lowell are scum, with MrSuave and XScorpion being somewhat good candidates as the other one. I don't have a strong read either way on anyone else.
I'm definitely cool with lynching lowell then farside then myself then MrSuave. In that order obviously.
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Post Post #363 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:49 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

XScorpion wrote:
strangercoug wrote:farside22 and Lowell are scum, with MrSuave and XScorpion being somewhat good candidates as the other one. I don't have a strong read either way on anyone else.
I'm definitely cool with lynching lowell then farside then myself then MrSuave. In that order obviously.
So you admit being scummier than MrSuave?
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Post Post #364 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:12 pm

Post by XScorpion »

Nah, but I figure if both Lowell and Farside turn up scum then losing 1 townie (me) won't be an absolute disaster for town. I'm a big fan of martyrdom :D
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Post Post #365 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:33 pm

Post by KittyMo »

I think nhammen's scum.

Scott Brosius /ins, saying that he wasn't in enough games. 4 days later, when the thread is at 5 pages, he tells us that he's sorry and needs to catch up. How much time/effort does it take to catch up on a 5 page thread? I mean, really? And so then nhammen shows up, with a pretty standard scumlist, without much explanation for it. His posts are pretty bare of content, and he just generally doesn't look like he's scumhunting. My vote needs a place, so I'll go ahead and
vote: nhammen


Looking back on Day 1, farside pretty much chainsaw-defended and buddied me all day, while also talking about meta, even though she said herself it's a topic she doesn't like to get on. And I find it really odd how she could be attacking everyone that attacked me for so long, and now she suddenly thinks I'm really scummy.

There's also something off about StrangerCoug. One post that bugs me is this one:
StrangerCoug wrote: Wouldn't it be better to think of the possible motives for yabbaguy's death first?
Where he seems to be trying to direct people toward nightkill discussion without adding to the discussion at all.

However, I'm starting to get a more neutral read on him.

MrSuave NEEDS TO POST CONTENT. I swear he's trying to avoid posting anything useful. All I've seen him do is talk about Nikanor, promise to catch up and then not really give any input for a good 14-15 days, claiming the holiday is the reason for this. He also has yet to vote or talk about anyone being scum except Nikanor. I'm not really sure if this is scummy, but it is definitely ridiculous.

Let's see, Lowell. All he's really done is act blatantly scummy and attack Zach. I'd really like to hear his thoughts on the game in general.

That's basically what's down in KittyMo-town. Anyone with other questions should let me know. Anyone I didn't mention I am having issues reading or think they're pro-town.

...oops, forgot to respond to Jazz's case.
Jazzmyn wrote: in 27, she answered her own questions, also quite pointless, but I notice that she managed to slip in an unnecessary soft claim, which is scummy.
I disagree that it was pointless since someone specifically asked me to answer my own questions. I don't see the soft claim you're talking about.
Jazz wrote: I didn't like her snipping at yabba for questioning her "plan" and responding to him with snark coupled with what looks like an appeal to emotion.
At that point I was just sick of everyone "questioning" my "plan." I have a tendency to get overemotional, but I really didn't appreciate at the time him saying the following:
yabbaguy wrote: See, I thought you had a purpose of some convoluted sort. I thought you were operating under the belief that somehow the responses were going to get us somewhere, hence "now what?"

So, if "nothing" is the answer... well yeah... it kinda failed.
Jazz wrote: In 172, in her response to XS's accusations against her, she utilizes WIFOM "IMO it would be stupid for scum to put themselves in the spotlight at the very beginning of the game. That's exactly what they're trying NOT to do" which is meh.
Just based on personal experience, I very, very rarely see scum put themselves in the spotlight early in the game. I remember my first game as scum, and on Day 1 I was absolutely terrified of being attacked early on, and definitely focused more on acting protown than pretending to scumhunt and such things. You can call it WIFOM if you want, but that's my experience.
Jazz wrote: Also, I see a possible slip when she says, "I can see that you find what I did to be stupid and/or anti-town. But do you really think what I did made me more likely to be
town?"
(my bolding) For that sentence to make any sense, that should have said scum, not town.
When I'm preparing a post, I often backspace and edit things so they sound better, which makes other things come out wrong, and causing me to make freudian slips. I do this often; if you're the kind of person that looks at meta, you can see for yourself, or if you'd like me to quote past games I can.
Jazz wrote: Then, she responded further to XS in 183 and 185 but then abruptly refused to do so any further. I'm not a fan of "this discussion is over" type of copouts.
It's just...not really a good use of anyone's time to respond to the same points over and over. The conversation was really becoming a distraction to finding scum IMO. That's why I decided to stop responding.
Jazz wrote: In 242, shortly before deadline, she made extremely weak cases on a few players: top scum suspect Lowell because of "bad vibes"; XS for "being a hypocrite" and "tunneling horribly"; SC "just a gut feeling; Zach "because if he's scum he wants her dead asap"; and MrS because of his preoccupation with Nik and because she can’t read him. None of those are legitimate cases
Again, this is more of a meta thing for me. I'm the kind of girl that makes the long, pretty, well-thought out cases as scum because I don't actually have to figure out who the scum are, and the kind of girl that's really wishy-washy and is not among the greatest scumhunters you'll ever meet. Yeah, those are crap cases, but that's really what I was going on at the time.

I think that's all. I'm actually not done revising this post to make sure it makes sense, but I'm posting it anyways cuz I have to go to bed right now. ><
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Post Post #366 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:48 pm

Post by MrSuave »

XScorpion wrote:Nah, but I figure if both Lowell and Farside turn up scum then losing 1 townie (me) won't be an absolute disaster for town. I'm a big fan of martyrdom :D
uh... I still don't see the point. like... really. if what you say is true, and you are a town, why would you set yourself up to the noose? that just doesn't make any sense to me. FOS on the Xbug
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Post Post #367 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:26 pm

Post by XScorpion »

If what I say is a lie, and I'm scum, why am I volunteering to die?
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Post Post #368 (ISO) » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:01 pm

Post by nhammen »

XScorp: Quit that WIFOM. There is no scum reason and there is no town reason for what you are doing. STOP

After rereading, I still find real information hard to come by. But I did see one thing. Farside, why do you insist on commenting more on theory questions than try to find scum. Someone else accused you of this earlier (I don't remember who) and the entire hypocop conversation has been you showing the theory of it, while saying it is a bad idea. What about the person proposing it? Do you have any reads on lowell at all?

I'm too tired right now to post more, but I am back, so yeah.
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Post Post #369 (ISO) » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:49 am

Post by Lowell »

Ugh, scorpion is scummy as hell. "Lynch X, then Y, then me" is not "townie matrydom." It's just regular dumb.
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Post Post #370 (ISO) » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:51 am

Post by Zachrulez »

Lowell wrote:Ugh, scorpion is scummy as hell. "Lynch X, then Y, then me" is not "townie matrydom." It's just regular dumb.
Opportunistic attack not followed up by a vote.
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Post Post #371 (ISO) » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:09 am

Post by Zachrulez »

In other news, I like Kittymo's points on Nhammen, and really dislike post 368.

I will happily give Kittymo my vote in light of all this

unvote: Vote: Nhammen


Still don't like Lowell, I might also be interested in a Farside lynch as well.

Not really interested in an Xscorpion lynch.
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Post Post #372 (ISO) » Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:27 am

Post by farside22 »

nhammen wrote:XScorp: Quit that WIFOM. There is no scum reason and there is no town reason for what you are doing. STOP

After rereading, I still find real information hard to come by. But I did see one thing. Farside, why do you insist on commenting more on theory questions than try to find scum. Someone else accused you of this earlier (I don't remember who) and the entire hypocop conversation has been you showing the theory of it, while saying it is a bad idea. What about the person proposing it? Do you have any reads on lowell at all?

I'm too tired right now to post more, but I am back, so yeah.
I'm having a lot of trouble getting into this game with all the meta talk. Plus the fact no one is really talking about much of anything else makes things more difficult. Some games are just like that.
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Post Post #373 (ISO) » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:33 am

Post by farside22 »

XScorpion - reading scorpion in isolation is like reading a person who is all over the place. He goes from baiting to vocal to more baiting.
The problem I have is his complete hypocritcal comment that came from today's post:
scorpion wrote:I'm much more interested in if there were any successful investigations (indicating scum).


To:
scorpion wrote:[quote ="Lowell"]
Any chance we should do some sort of mass copclaim situation? Can we use two cops to our advantage here or what?
Wow obvscum? [/quote]

Sooooo he wants to know if there is a successful investigation but disagree's with lowells hypoclaim calling him obvscum.
And your comment was somehow less scummy?

In short I found only minimumal scum hunting from him, with WIFOM and then trying to an attempt a soft claim from the cops to calling lowell scum for doing almost the same thing.
leaning scum.


Lowell - lowell has been really just too damn quiet this game. He calls out zach in regards to using meta to make a case but i never saw how post 39 was meta. Although there is a clear indication from mrsauve doing the same lowell sticks by his zach vote.
day 2 lowell suggest a hypoclaim that gets turned down in great volumn. He's still voting for zach for what so far I have really little clue.
Lowell has always been hard for me to read. I think the thing that most unsettles me is his day one attacks on zach for the meta talks but letting mrsauve slide a bit before voting for him because zach was more talkative. (huh?)

StrangerCoug - This is an SC I have never seen before that I can recall. He has been very quiet, not building any sort of case, following others cases. He even misreprents his vote for today accusing me of pushing the hypoclaim when all I was doing was defending myself against Jazz.
He changed his mind on kitty with little to no reasoning. unvotes kitty with no reasoning.
Wants to bring up the reason for yabba's death which by now many people who played mafia know leads to nothing but WIFOM.

Lets not forget the flip flop on the hypo claim here
You took me out of context. I concede to saying little to all the arguments against it, but I was against it too, not in favor of it. By "I don't care if we all massclaimed 'I investigated X and got a Y on them'," I meant that I view it as scummy as proposing that the two cops out themselves, which I interpreted Lowell as saying in what I quoted in 291. I wanted a step ahead of Lowell, and I believe he backtracked into saying the hypoclaims were all he wanted.
To this:
I have to agree with you here. There is a Mafia tailor and no roleblocker, and the tailor probably told the rest of the Mafia his or her target. Therefore, in a hypoclaim situation, somebody claiming a correct result on a player that was tailored that night can be ruled out as a cop, thus narrowing down the pool.
To this:
No it does not. If it does at all, it's only by a trivial amount in favor of scum, who knows who should be showing up as innocent and who should be showing up as guilty. Stop insisting that the town can benefit from hypoclaiming.

Unvote: Lowell
Vote: farside22

Which I said the same thing about a tailor a few pages ago before this post and why it wouldn't work there.
Some of my feeling on SC is a bit playing with him but most of this just is poor reasoning with someone I just find isn't reading the game and jumping on BW's to look good. As soon as SC see's pressure on me he not only backs down his stance but flips it and votes on me.
in short = Scum!
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #374 (ISO) » Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:37 am

Post by farside22 »

MrSuave
Nikanor

I put these 2 under the same category as they seem to go back and forth with their argument.
MrSuave calls out nik based on meta and then gives examples. Nik counters those arguments and it turns out that MrSuave misrepresented Nik's meta completely in his comments.
I would like to see more from both of these players and their thoughts on everyone else in the game to reach a real conclusion about them.
I'm leaning Suave scum based on using meta and then misrepresenting that meta in order to make someone more scummy.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.

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