Mini 892 - Mayor Mafia (GAME OVER)

[MichelSableheart]

One week, two hours, ten minutes till deadline.

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Second vote count of day 4:

Moai Interceptor Cannons (1)

Col. Cathart

Col.Cathart (1)

Moai Interceptor Cannons

SaintKerrigan (0)

Not voting anyone (1)

SaintKerrigan

With 3 votes available, it takes 2 votes to lynch someone.

If at deadline no mayority has been reached, SaintKerrigan will decide who gets lynched, regardless of the vote count.

[Moai Interceptor Cannons]

I was out for most of today, going to sleep now. Will post properly tomorrow.

[SaintKerrigan]

Finished my ISO reads. Not gonna post my notes though until I see those cases from both of you. Deadline's in less than a week, boys, so let's get busy.

[Col.Cathart]

Ok, so my Finals week is coming closer, and I have to spend more time with the books. I'll try to finish my case today, but tomorrow is more likely at this point.

[Moai Interceptor Cannons]

"because SK is town so that means the other one is scum."

Although that really is the gist of it from my point of view, from your point of view it's not that simple so I understand why you want to see us make geniune cases. Bear in mind though that everything I could possibly come up with has already been confirmation biased, so instead of a 'case' it's more like 'here's my interpretation of Cathart as scum was thinking when he did this and that'.

What I can do is point you towards Cathart's D1 behaviour. Cathart was one of three-four people who thought of mayor self-promotion as scummy (see the bottom line of my post 71), and Socrates explained somewhere why this was indicative of scum mentality (then again you also did this, so it isn't a very reliable scumtell). In post 83 he took a very wishy washy stance on both scum so far (insincere bussing), and later both he and Kyle took an unnaturally hard stance in Monkey (tryhard bussing), even harder than Charter and Danny. Note how they both keep telling people to not believe Monkey's claim (so that they'd look when when Monkey flipped scum, which they knew would happen). Cathart's hard stance late D1 is pretty inconsistent with his soft stance early D1. Cathart has also been staying under the radar for pretty much all of D1 (I've explained this point in one of my posts somewhere), and hasn't been sincerely scumhunting. His early D1 play can be summed up with "I think Reck is scum, Monkey and Kyle could be scum" + *tumbleweed*, and his late D1 play can be summed up with "Monkey is definitely scum, Reck is scum, Kyle and Hoopla (the other major suspects) could be scum" + *tumbleweed*.

Both me and Cathart absent for most of D2, so I won't go into that. D3, Kerrigan, all I can say is that you should've kept your mouth shut until after the massclaim -- maybe then Cathart's reaction would've been more of a scumtell. There isn't really much of a case against Cathart TBH (mainly because he's been staying under the radar), so this is pretty much the extent of what I can give you. If you want me to try convince you why I'm not scum however (i.e. defend myself from whatever scummy things you may have found during your ISO read of me), I'll probably be better at doing that.

[Col.Cathart]

Post in progress. Long one, so it may take some time.

[Col.Cathart]

Okay, About MIC:

He starts the game with couple of funny pictures. When it turned out, he's an alt (probably joke one as well) of Cruciare, I passed it off, as something completely normal for him.

The problem with his early play is somewhere else though. First of all his first votes are either random via dice-rolling (not a good thing) and voting without explanations (bad thing). Then, we must consider who he voted, and when (with ignoring random-Hoopla vote).

The first vote is for Monkey. Ok, either good intuition, or early bus. Seems fine tho- Hey, wait a minute...

I change my mind.

Unvote, Vote: SaintKerrigan

. Also, what's all this Hoopla support about?

Ok, so at first he joins the scum wagon, and then jumps off it. Reason?

The case on Monkey is being epicly overinflated IMO.

Haha, 'town points' - that's a good one Charter. Serial, your reason especially is a bit pathetic for someone of your apparent calibre: bemusement = town, concern = scum? What?

Kerrigan was always the better vote than Monkey in my eyes. It's just that Monkey had a bigger wagon at the time, but his reaction was inconclusive. Also, Charter, we're only on page four. Calm down a little.

First looks says 'okay, seems good'. But there was something not right in here, and after a little backtrack, I know what.

In other news, MonkeyMan, Cathart and Kerrigan (maybe Hoopla too) are scum.

Unvote, Vote: MonkeyMan576.

Wagon go!

Ok, So Monkey is scum, or you were on his wagon to see his reactions, which are 'inconclusive'? Also, does inconclusive really mean, someone you pegged as a scum so early is enough to back off your vote to someone with little to no heat at all, or should I say, from scum to town? Also, look at the bolted statement of his post about Monkey. So the case on MM is overinflated. That's the only case on Monkey ever made at that point. So, Monkey was scum... For what, if not that 'overinflated case'?

Ok, we have an answer for that in his ISO 17 (too big post to quote all of it). At least for me, inconclusive means null. And something scummy + null = something scummy. And so, I still don't understand, why did you change your vote from wagoned scum suspect to not wagoned scum suspect, especially if no one else followed you with this point. Looking at MM's and Kerrigan's alignment (assuming we both agree, he's obvtown), the only conclusion I can make of it is - 'protect your scum buddy'.

It even seems logical from my point of view. Kyle was for MM lynch, while you was defending him. Scum wagoned + 2 of his buddies with different opinions for maximum variety to not get connected.

--------------------

ISO 19 is pretty important post, so let's look closely at it:

Article 1: Defense of Monkey. Bad enough, seeing MM's alignment.

Article 2:

If I recall correctly one of the people who reviewed this setup absolutely hates cops.

Still, I don't think Monkey's scum

(yes read this sentence again if you want)

I read it again, and again, and still can't believe I didn't point out it at the time, or even later, after the massclaim, when no one else claimed cop. You obviously mean Vi, as he was the reviewer of this game, and he was in game with us both, when he said he hates the cops. So you have a clear reason to suspect, there's no cop in this game. And yet, you still thought this claim was true... Again, seeing MM's final alignment, this looks really bad.

Article 3: I really hate this constant rambling about page 4 (he uses it far too much in his previous posts). Apart from that, nothing really town or scum for random observer.

Article 4: Again not much to point out here. All point here are debatable, and we don't have that much time to debate all over something really minor now.

Article 5: Two scum noted as 'town

~ish

' (not burning the bridge for possible bus on Kyle in the future?) and 'leaning town' (on player who played outrageous, and made a [IMO] claim hard to believe). Yeah, you know my point about it.

Article 6: Town and unconvincing. His reasonings seems genuine, but as he's proposing Reck, I have this feeling, he tried to establish him as a Mayor to make a point 'he's unconvincing, so let's not vote someone, who he think is scum'. Point and the statement doesn't make any sense? Yeah, unless you'll see, who Reck tried to lynch really hard - Kyle.

Article 7: Still trying to convince people, Monkey is not scum.

Article 8: I laughed. Kudos for you

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Later we have some backing off the townish statement on Kyle, while answering nhammen, yet stating he doesn't understand the hate on him (ISO 20), then again he seems to go into 'oh what the hell, bussing is not a bad idea, by giving minuses on both Kyle and Monkey (ISO 21).

And then Hoopla came to play, and MIC had a new distraction source from Monkey (also, I saw it in the avatar in my other game, so I assume it's a meme of some kind, but I still don't get the origin of it in ISO 23). He tried to convince everyone to join the wagon, making some additional jokes in the meantime.

-------------------

As I said before, I almost got fooled with his 'genuinely looking' reaction after Soc's hammer, but I guess in this case, since he knew MM will flip Scum, he had to try hard to look really sure with his own scum-choices to have some form of defense for trying to kill MM wagon.

-------------------

He missed entire D2 due to Christmas. Pretty normal.

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Kyle slipped, MIC voted. Not a scumtell, since I did the same. He managed to kill his main lynch supporter (Charter) but attracting Danny to kill him via his twilight D3 comment (it might have been done accidentally though)

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Turned out pretty wall of textish. so Here you have tl;dr version of his scumtells:

- Saying that Monkey is scum, following the wagon, then jumping off it, and finally trying to derail it HARD. REALLY

HARD

.

- Add to this some inconsistencies with his later explanations why he dropped MM case.

- He had reasons to not believe MM's claim, yet he opted to ignore it, and continue 'MM is not scum' mantra.

- Trying hard to wagon town member (another distraction from Monkey)

Pretty much everything comes concludes in point 1, but I think it's good enough.

[Col.Cathart]

Oh, and also -

E

[SaintKerrigan]

Okay, thanks for posting those cases. As promised, I'll post my notes.

MIC

- Attacks me with the crappy "don't want to be mayor = scummy" case.
- Goes after me for showing why I don't want to be mayor, but does not extend the same argument to SerialClergyman, who was doing a similar thing.
- Claimed MonkeyMan wasn't scum, and defended him for a large portion of the game.
- "This is funny because my arguments make near-perfect sense to me and I seem to be having a hard time getting you to understand. You see when I write all these words for you, my expected reaction is 'oh, I see', so it confuses me when you continually come up with these questions." Crap argument, if someone is asking questions about your argument, it obviously does not make sense to them.

Col. Cathart

- Early on finds both Kyle99 and MonkeyMan576 neutral.
- Argues in his vote for MM that most of his posts are bullshit, when earlier he stated that he was a neutral read, which indicates that he didn't find most of his posts bullshit.
- Says he couldn't see both MM and xReck to be scum, yet lists both of them as scum in a reads list.
- Kyle's fakeclaim as tracker had MIC targeting me. Could be evidence that MIC is protown, and thus meaning Cathart is scum.
- Cathart has lurked hard for most of this game.

The second-to-last tell in Cathart's column is very strong to me. Also, the more I've looked at MIC, the more town he's seemed to me, despite the fact that he avoided the Monkey wagon for most of the game.

I'll give you guys another chance to explain yourselves, but right now I'm leaning Cathart.

[Col.Cathart]

Col. Cathart

- Early on finds both Kyle99 and MonkeyMan576 neutral.

Opinions can change during the game, and as long as someone doesn't contradicts himself badly with his earlier statements, there's nothing wrong with it.

- Argues in his vote for MM that most of his posts are bullshit, when earlier he stated that he was a neutral read, which indicates that he didn't find most of his posts bullshit.

Not exactly. He was neutral for his attitude with self-nominating, and I would be stupid to call him scummy for it, as I did the exact same thing. After short discussion with Socrates, I modified my point of view.

He began posting bullshit (so the moment, when I started to suspect him), was after he claimed, especially the piece where he was trying to justify his early claim with rules, and he was evidently false. It went downhill from there. That's why I was trying to lynch him hard.

As I said, there's nothing wrong with changing opinions during the course of the game, or else we should be sticking with our early D1 cases, and Ignore everything that happened later.

- Says he couldn't see both MM and xReck to be scum, yet lists both of them as scum in a reads list.

Ok, now I don't understand, where you're gunning at. I thought MM was scummy. I thought Reck was scummy. I doubted the possibility of them being scumpartners at the time, due to their interactions (though, this point also changed, when Reck started his own campaign for [oh irony!] Kyle wagon during late D1. At that point I thought, they actually might be partners after all, but I forgot to mention it. Gotta say, if this is going to be one of the factors, why town lost, I'm going to be very angry at myself), BUT if we looks at them separately I still saw scum in them both, so when I was analyzing every player individually, both of them got my scum verdict, even if I doubted at the time, they are team. I was pretty sure one of them MUST be scum (and look - I was right).

- Kyle's fakeclaim as tracker had MIC targeting me. Could be evidence that MIC is protown, and thus meaning Cathart is scum.

Cannot really say anything to my defense here, as I don't have anything to do with it. All I can say, is that is really WIFOMy point, and I advise to really think about it, before deciding 'this mus be it!' (obviously, because I know my role, and I know it's a bad conclusion).

- Cathart has lurked hard for most of this game.

I certainly wouldn't say that. True, I wasn't the most active person in this thread (not even close), but I don't think I was lurking. Also, pretty much of my absences were caused by Finals/work stuff, but I don't expect you to believe me.

The second-to-last tell in Cathart's column is very strong to me. Also, the more I've looked at MIC, the more town he's seemed to me, despite the fact that he avoided the Monkey wagon for most of the game.

As I said, this is classic WIFOM. If Kyle did it on purpose (and I suspect he did), then really props for him for being bold enough play like that.

[Moai Interceptor Cannons]

- Attacks me with the crappy "don't want to be mayor = scummy" case.
- Goes after me for showing why I don't want to be mayor, but does not extend the same argument to SerialClergyman, who was doing a similar thing.

I think I've explained this before. I saw a discrepancy between answering the questionnaire and then saying you don't want to be mayor. You said you answered it because you thought it was a good idea, I still don't know what that means. If you didn't want to be mayor, you could've simply said you didn't want to be mayor or not said anything at all like most people. It's just that answering the questionnaire kind of indicates that you at least want to be considered for mayor, and then saying that you don't contradicts that. That's it really.

As for not going after Serial, I've also explained this before. There were several people who expressed interest in making Serial the mayor, the questionnaire was designed to show those people that there may be better candidates than himself. This was not the case with you - nobody expressed prior interest in making you the mayor, your answering of the questionnaire was entirely unprovoked. At the time, I saw no reason for you to answer the questionnaire other than wanting to be considered for mayor, which you denied, which I interpreted as scummy.

If true, it was scummy because it would be very advantageous for scum to have the mayor position, yet scum may have seen self-nomination as a scumtell like Monkey and Cathart (and you as well) did.

- Claimed MonkeyMan wasn't scum, and defended him for a large portion of the game.

I

thought

Monkey wasn't scum, but yes, this point is true and I can't argue against it.

- "This is funny because my arguments make near-perfect sense to me and I seem to be having a hard time getting you to understand. You see when I write all these words for you, my expected reaction is 'oh, I see', so it confuses me when you continually come up with these questions." Crap argument, if someone is asking questions about your argument, it obviously does not make sense to them.

Unless they're scum, of course. That line was kind of a retort to his claiming that my arguments were crap. At the time I wrote that I was bewildered as to why Nhammen kept asking me questions even though I believed I made my thoughts quite clear from answering his previous questions. I was beginning to think that maybe Nhammen was not genuinely confused but may have been scum trying to burn through me with a magnifying glass by relentlessly interrogating me. Also, there were two cases IIRC where Nhammen even answered his own questions in the same line he asked them (once regarding me attacking you but not Serial and the other regarding Serial being scumbuddies with Hoopla), which kind of indicated that he actually knew my arguments made sense but was trying to question them anyway.

[Col.Cathart]

Ok, I'm guessing:

GHZXXFM

Oh, come on, you gotta be kidding me.

A

[Moai Interceptor Cannons]

And there I was beginning to think you would lose before getting any letters right.

[Col.Cathart]

P

[Moai Interceptor Cannons]

[SaintKerrigan]

(Sigh) Here goes nothing.

Vote: Col. Cathart.

[Col.Cathart]

Ok, that was a hammer...

Kyle, for Christ sake, just fakeclaim vanilla next time, please. Fakeclaiming power roles works rarely at all, especially when It wasn't needed to.

GJ town, you won this one, Thanks MSH for modding this. Awesome game

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Oh, and also...

I

[charter]

THANK GOD!

I would have taken MIC-scum to the bank.

Good work Kerrigan, great job picking right. Glad it was you making the decision and I was dead.

Good job town, thanks for modding Michel.

[SaintKerrigan]

Good job, Cathart. If not for the fact that you left alive the person who Kyle "tracked" to me I probably would've voted MIC. You played well in this one, despite the lurking.

And yes, kudos to Michel for modding this game. It's the first one I've been involved in that needed no replacements.

[Col.Cathart]

Good job, Cathart. If not for the fact that you left alive the person who Kyle "tracked" to me I probably would've voted MIC. You played well in this one, despite the lurking.

Well, I seriously thought, we have a Serial Killer on the board, so I took priority in taking him down. You couldn't be one, Charter's behavior in the twilight of D3 eliminated him as well, and MIC wouldn't kill Reckoner, I'm sure of it. That left DDD. In retrospect, I should have probably off you instead of Danny, since he had a pretty strong pro-town stance on me.

[Socrates]

MIC was obv town after Kyle tried to fake a guilty on him, IMO.

I need to trust my day 1 reads more, apparently. I was right about Monkey, I was right about Hoopla, and I was right about Kyle (for the wrong reasons. ).

I am never trusting a "scum slip" again.

I LOVE that DDD didn't claim vig.

Saint handled the game very well in endgame, props to him.

Props where props are due, I think Kyle's bus was well timed. Looking back, Kyle being unable to fathom a townie claiming when Monkey did makes so much more sense now.

This was a very fun game. One thing I must remark upon is that there was ZERO replacements in this game. I don't think I have ever seen that before.

[SaintKerrigan]

Good job, Cathart. If not for the fact that you left alive the person who Kyle "tracked" to me I probably would've voted MIC. You played well in this one, despite the lurking.

Well, I seriously thought, we have a Serial Killer on the board, so I took priority in taking him down. You couldn't be one, Charter's behavior in the twilight of D3 eliminated him as well, and MIC wouldn't kill Reckoner, I'm sure of it. That left DDD. In retrospect, I should have probably off you instead of Danny, since he had a pretty strong pro-town stance on me.

Was it you guys that tried to kill me off N2 and xReck protected me?

[xRECKONERx]

So...town won?

[SerialClergyman]

I was pretty sure it was cathart at the end, but my reads were pretty shocking all game. I gave far too much credit to kyle for being new.

When I died I was sure one of Hoopla or DDD was scum, because I didn't know why I was killed, then I learnt DDD was a vig and bingo it made sense

Well played town, well played Kerrigan for making the right decision. Badluck cathart for playing a good game but having a tough lylo.

[SaintKerrigan]

So...town won?

Ya, looks that way.