Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[farside22]

shotty proclaimed DLA scum and he flipped town which gives me pause.
There was a true lack of neto comments from SC and yes SC I give enough credit to someone in a corner that is scum to bus their scum partner to look town and you to be said type player so please no WIFOM.
I think I'm at a quadry between DLA/SC, kise and Ojanen.
Those are my top 4 for various of reasons right now.
I'm not going to give elibeth the free pass of neto scum voting on him that Ojanen did. I know I voted for my scum partner many a game day 1 to help them out later in the game.

[Ojanen]

farside, have you looked at the netopalis wagon again?
My Elli feelings have in more to do with Elli's vote and case on Neto than the opposite, even if I don't take in account other individual play from Elli.

[farside22]

farside, have you looked at the netopalis wagon again?
My Elli feelings have in more to do with Elli's vote and case on Neto than the opposite, even if I don't take in account other individual play from Elli.

Please tell me this has nothing to do with the he was the first to vote for neto therefore he is not scum comment.
please
please
please
*looks at the mod for an asprin*
Listen I'm not saying Eli is scum I just don't clear people and say hey there town. Heck even ABR gave me a pause during day 1 when he is talking to others about voting and I had that gut reaction of him wanting to keep the weak in because their easy to manipulate. I'm paranoid
I question everyone, I wonder how good a player is as scum and what I would do and then flip it back to how evil is this person if they are scum again.
Do I think Eli more town then scum. yes
Do you want to be in my head for a day scum hunting I think you will say no.

[farside22]

Also I've been fighting with SC for 2 game days now about him as scum where the hell were you during that!
Sorry, sorry just aggrevated when I feel people want to pressure me to side with them when I feel leary of them to begin with.

[Kise]

@Serial, thank you for that. Ugh. I hate that I really want you to be town this game. Symptoms of a white knight syndrome or something.
I actually sympathize with your scumread on Kise/Kittymo with a degree of caution, if I had to call it right now it would be Kise/Scigatt.

You two must have went over distancing in your QT last night . I also noticed you have a habit of getting cozy with SC here. Is there a story on you two outside of this game? I think that'd help me.

I'm not sure why kise is focused on Hewitt as scum do to Neto withholding his vote. Neto withheld his vote on DLA< CSL and hewitt. Just saying

Was DLA in hammering range?

That's basically all I have from kise. He is attacking SC based on Hewitt being probable scum with Neto and pushing Hewitt as scum based on the L-1 where neto said he would hammer but didn't.

Nah I'm looking at SC based on his interactions & slips against Albert, plus CSL's behavior doesn't help. SC tried to lie to me and say that CSL self-voted when he wasn't in trouble... Well, hello!? CSL had 3 votes (iirc) on him before he self-voted. SC tried to mislead me at the end of yesterday and that only further digs him in the hole as far as I'm concerned.

@Kise: Your slot needs emergency content.

What do you think about Scigatt, hewitt and DLA? Do you have other suspects besides Serial?

Scigatt/saberwolf isn't pinging my scumdar at the moment. DLA and hewitt make me cringe. I'd put Serial & hewitt together as the likelier team -- farside just pointed out Neto's neglect to hammer hewitt as he instead went off to vote for someone else AFTER saying he would decide whether he should pick hewitt or Albert's side. Right now we only need 2 more scum, so DLA is on the backburner a bit. Serial and hewitt are my bets. I'm not comfortable with your recent coming of aid to Serial, but I'll reserve judgment on that until you answer my above question.

NO MORE QUESTIONS UNTIL I AM CAUGHT UP PLEASE

I'm in the page 20 mark and will be updating my opinions on everything done thus far in the game. I will let it be known when I am on the current page.

(That is correct, I didn't read anything overnight)

[Ojanen]

Farside,
I understood from your post you thought I had a strong pro-town read based on Neto's lonely vote on Elli, my question was partly to explain my thoughts more.
We clearly have a different approach to working within a mafia game; if I'm aggravating you my question was obviously counterproductive. You're probably gonna see this as questionable self-crediting but I was kind of wondering in how good memory you had the happenings around the Neto wagon getting momentum since I had a lot of influence in getting him lynched. Elli also, I think. And there would have been a lot of lynchbait to latch onto at that time, for example the newish Shotty momentum that was going on and a bunch of weaker players. But I see now you're on top of things, don't shy away from the thought of out-of-blue bussing of a reasonably strong player and will let you form your own judgments in peace, since ultimately this seems to me town-town noise.

Also I've been fighting with SC for 2 game days now about him as scum where the hell were you during that!

I think you know where I was. I was exclaiming that he's prob town and working with him.
Now I'm more unsure due to flips and new thoughts and posts. I'm still not certainly jumping to his throat, just trying to figure him out more actively.

You two must have went over distancing in your QT last night Confused. I also noticed you have a habit of getting cozy with SC here. Is there a story on you two outside of this game? I think that'd help me.

Haha, you must think I'm extremely unsubtle.
We have conversed non-game relatedly for a fair bit and played together in a bunch of games. I like him/playing with him. No further story, we don't know each other in rl or anything.

Kise, easy stupid question, can you confirm that you really meant that you're on page 20 of the catch up and it wasn't a typo?

[farside22]

I think you know where I was. I was exclaiming that he's prob town and working with him.
Now I'm more unsure due to flips and new thoughts and posts. I'm still not certainly jumping to his throat, just trying to figure him out more actively.

A vote and calling him scum is figuring a person out these days?

*mutters something about people talking about my scum hunting ways that can't be heard*

Listen my curiousity is about you right now. Going from proclaiming someone a town to flipping and following a case would make anyone look at you twice and (stops before I say something that brings other games into play here)
You voted for kik day 2 proclaimed a case on her day 1. Day 1 case had nothing to do with your day 2 case against her.
Forced her out do to lack of communication (but really I just thought the whole case was crazy to begin with and part of me thinks scum was driving that case on her in the first place)
Now I come into day 3 and I feel like I'm talking to someone completely different then day 1 or 2. Who is talking about a case I brought up and yes that is going to get my scumdar up and going wondering if your doing this as scum hopping for a mislynch or town who just woke up and smelled the coffee.
This is no way alludes to my impression of SC town or scum this is soley based on my impression of you thus far this game.

[SerialClergyman]

I would regard Ojanen as a good friend, despite having never met in real life. We have played together quite a few times, although rarely on the same team. In fact, the fact that I'm still alive point to her as town, unless my constant whinging after she NKed me as scum at the earliest possible opportunity twice in a row made her too guilty to do it a third time. I like playing with her and want her to be town, but I have called her out as scum before, so it's possible to read her, but I am influenced by knowing her somewhat.

I hope the reverse isn't true, and if part of your white knight syndrome is stopping you from making a case on me, Ojanen, time to suck it up and make that case. In all honesty, I'd appreciate actually responding about my 100+ posts this game rather than the same thing every time. (Note, Kise is trying and failing hard to do exactly this, because he's scum and doesn't want to recycle the same bad arguments but can't find any more good ones).

I don't have a town read on Scigatt from his play, I think it's been greatly missing. He has done nothing but suspect me for old reasons and hammer Shotty. But I have that strong a read on saber with a few key indicators that since D1 I think that playerslot is beyond reproach.

The only weird thing about DLA I remember was him arguing with me dramatically about Neto's defending me and showing no signs of taking what I was saying on board and then within a day had switched his vote to someone else.

[Kise]

Since D1 lynches are traditionally worse than random, it would seem to me that the best course of action is to lynch a player that will be the least useful on D2, but will still provide reads on players. To me, DLA and Hewitt satisfy this bill.

Then why was it a no-go, I have to wonder[?]

To be clear, I've always felt Neto is the biggest pro-town player we have. He is really good at putting pressure and making good posts. Do not vote for Neto.

Neto has since flipped scum. Thoughts on this, anyone?

Page 33. What I've learned so far is that DLA's reads are not dependable and Ellibereth can't settle on his stance for anything in this world. And Serial is still scum.

Yeah, look, Elli just rained on my parade pretty damn hard to be honest... Are the mafia daytalkers in this game? I wouldn't put it past you to have organised that just to put me in my place...

Scummy as hell. Clergyman, you've been stroking my e-dick all game praising me as town and talented, and here you accuse me of

being scum with Ellibereth.

For your information, there is no day-talking in this setup, but your quick, careless turnaround is proof that you're a scumbag mascaraing in sheep's clothing.

ABR - I was saying that the bus was MY bus of NETO, because you've been linking us together as scum. It was a JOKE, as indicated by the yellow grinning man.

You joked about bussing your partner Neto? Is that it?

Yes, I did.

So you're admitting that Neto is your partner.

Classic.

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet, but CSL has self-voted as scum here

His tone is almost the same as here.
I'll be happy lynching Neto or SC today. They're both scum.

So far, I feel like settling for an SC lynch. Neto makes a post sympathizing with players that replace in. It's laughable to think mafia have a heart. He's probably trying to tap into everyone's emotions and get them to back off of SC, at least for D1. A lot of things point back to Serial as scum from proven scum [Neto]. I can't wait to see why Shotty got strung up instead yesterday.

Serial

is prob town. I would HATE to lose to him if he's scum so I'm harboring an extra layer of paranoia to the guy.

You would hate to lose a scum player here? Rephrase this as if I was a nuclear retard, because.. well, just type slow or something. Put this in other words for me.

[Kise]

Wow, SC. So you've already made up in your mind that I'm scum? Oh my goodness... u suck.

[farside22]

fos: kise

not liking anything so far from his read. Nothing jiving so far

[Kise]

For the sake of meta, are you Faraday/Far_Cry also?

[farside22]

For the sake of meta, are you Faraday/Far_Cry also?

No. Not even close.
The only alt I remember having and using was called yorgi.

[Ojanen]

I hope the reverse isn't true, and if part of your white knight syndrome is stopping you from making a case on me, Ojanen, time to suck it up and make that case. In all honesty, I'd appreciate actually responding about my 100+ posts this game rather than the same thing every time. (Note, Kise is trying and failing hard to do exactly this, because he's scum and doesn't want to recycle the same bad arguments but can't find any more good ones).

No, I don't think I'm that biased Serial.
I'll make a case if I'll think there's one to make, if I'm not satisfied with answers you're giving me, and I'm waiting on a question at the moment. I'd be less careful about it if there was more of a floodgate for holding universal high suspicion of you, but it actually seems today the dynamic has slightly settled. The white knight syndrome has more to do with you being hounded here and me liking some parts of your content very much.

A vote and calling him scum is figuring a person out these days?
*mutters something about people talking about my scum hunting ways that can't be heard*

I'm sorry, I don't understand you. I haven't voted him. I haven't called him scum. I have said I am more uncertain after the complete reread and more PoE.
Honestly I'm having a bit of a hard time seeing why you seem very aggravated at me, and I mean this in a different way than just thinking I'm scum because that's a normal part of the game.

Listen my curiousity is about you right now. Going from proclaiming someone a town to flipping and following a case would make anyone look at you twice and (stops before I say something that brings other games into play here)

This is a huge exaggeration of "after a complete reread I have become more uncertain about this slot", and me following the reasons of the old case is your own assumption.

You voted for kik day 2 proclaimed a case on her day 1. Day 1 case had nothing to do with your day 2 case against her.
Forced her out do to lack of communication (but really I just thought the whole case was crazy to begin with and part of me thinks scum was driving that case on her in the first place)

I did not force her out due to lack of communication, we were writing walls to each other. I thought her answers were scummy. I hit the wrong (somewhat) informed minority.

Now I come into day 3 and I feel like I'm talking to someone completely different then day 1 or 2.

The only difference is availability of time which you can track across my games and I think my catch up still contributed a lot on D1 since we got a scum lynched.

[farside22]

Ojanen: Is it typically for you to put a case together and not place a vote? IE: is there a reason you are not voting anyone at this time?
I mistakenly thought you voted without a vote count it's a bit hard to remember who is voting who right now.

is a huge exaggeration of "after a complete reread I have become more uncertain about this slot", and me following the reasons of the old case is your own assumption.

Reread my day 2 comments and tell me you don't see some similarities. I'm always a bit suspicision of someone who ignores a case on someone 1 day and then starts up a case that someone had the day before that said nothing before about it.
It could all be related to the trip you took. I can concede that point.

[DarkLightA]

Scigatt - No opinion really, kind of neutral read from the few posts he's had.
Kise - I think town, due to the utter lack of interest.
Hewitt - Slighly more scum than neutral, but a hard read.

[farside22]

.
Kise - I think town, due to the utter lack of interest.

Seriously!
* grabs to OJ * Point to statement here.
This is incrediblly bad POV (point of view)

FOS: DLA

[farside22]

Mod: Any word on a replacement for Hewitt yet?

[SerialClergyman]

DLA, mind expanding on that read there? Is it your experience that town players tend to be disaffected?

[Ellibereth]

I'm still here guys. Sorry for not posting so much in the last few days.
I have been going through the game a few more times but I want to first wait for Kise to finish and to have news about hewitt's replacement before posting something real.

[dramonic]

The Nineteenth Votecount: Prods, Replacement and Repairs!!

SerialClergyman (1): DarklightA

Not Voting (7): Farside, Kise, SerialClergyman, Ojanen, Ellibereth, Hewitt, Scigatt

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is the 23th at 23:59!

I am currently seeking replacement for Hewitt and Scigatt (who requested it)

[Ojanen]

Ojanen: Is it typically for you to put a case together and not place a vote? IE: is there a reason you are not voting anyone at this time?
I mistakenly thought you voted without a vote count it's a bit hard to remember who is voting who right now.

I dunno typical as in meta examples, I do pretty often take some time to get around to voting but dunno coupled with cases.
I wasn't voting Scigatt because while seeing a lot of stuff against him I'm insecure about the read due to some Saber stuff and wanted to hear more from Scigatt, I wasn't voting Kise because that read is partly heavily PoE based and I wanna see more of his content. I wasn't voting anyone else because I thought those 2 were the scummiest. I essentially haven't decided yet the lynch I'm backing up.

Reread my day 2 comments and tell me you don't see some similarities. I'm always a bit suspicision of someone who ignores a case on someone 1 day and then starts up a case that someone had the day before that said nothing before about it.
It could all be related to the trip you took. I can concede that point.

This, coupled with PoE, is all I've directly said about the reasons of the Serial uncertainty so far:

Frankly and sadly, being confronted again with CSL and Neto's comments and a bit of Serial (questions should be coming later) I'm not as confident on the townread as I was before.

Which nods to CSL's and Neto's direction but is actually completely vague and certainly not a case, people seem to be filling in their heads what I was thinking.
Tell you what, after he's answered the question I'm waiting on I'll put down the stuff that makes me think town and the stuff that makes me twitch and we'll be done with this.

@Serial, the question I'm waiting to get an answer from you repeated since it might be a little buried

Can you please look at hewitt on pages 33-38 and tell me if you're seeing scum, really interested in that.

Aaaargh to Scigatt replacing out now without a word.
I know sometimes circumstances dictate that you have to do that, I think it would be better if people would at least answer remaining questions about their own play before doing it, that takes no catching up (saw him online at some point after his last post).

* grabs to OJ * Point to statement here.
This is incrediblly bad POV (point of view)

Well, agree with you.

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry Ojanen, I did miss the question.

The problem is it's not really my way of thinking, but I'll try to give you my read on it.

Firstly, becausei t's vaugely relevent - I don't consider Hewitt's claim to have any bearing on alignment. I don't think it's natural for scum to claim mason at all, that just really does mean you are provably scum.

Ok, so his argument with ABR I can see as a chainsaw of Neto, trying to tap into the percieved notion of Albert walking all over people or even being genuinely frustrated that scum are a target. It could also be a townie who is sulking because he's arguing with someone who was wrong once and so therefore feels he has a better read. One quote from Albert that was interesting was 840:

Then follow the less active posters, hewitt. You are but a blind claimed townie, but you're behaving like how I think a mason would behave: sure of himself, leading the charge, telling the town who he definitely isn't lynching, etc.

He was doing exactly that. And given Albert was a mason, I'm pretty sure he's not the last mason. So this is certainly problematic.

OK, so now he actively defends Neto. This is interesting in that it's never been brought up (despite much discussion). I continue to think that it's hard to judge someone who is defending someone who is about to be lynched. On one hand, there was no reason to tie himself to Neto, on the other hand he was defending Neto for quite a while so he couldn't really do a 180.

This Ellibereth? This does not once say I think Netopalis is scum because of X reason. This is all just a summary of what he's done. That's bullcrap.

Then leads to:

So instead of lynching a useless player who isn't going to help us at all (kiku, Ellibereth, DLA) tomorrow you're lynching a player who actively contributes. That's a great idea saber.

Neto makes a comment about Hewitt as he's getting not-actually-hammered.

...And Hewitt also claimed vanilla townie, but the whole town jumped ship.

So he thought that was the most important thing to say before dying. It could just be him having a whinge but I'd have to imagine he thought there was strategic value in it.

I don't get the motivation for this:

Looks like I missed all the fun while I was lurking.

If Neto flips scum then SC is scum?

If Neto flips town then ABR is scum?

Yes, no, from everyone please.

This is bullcrap.

Unless he's scumpartners with me. I suppose he could just be trying to push the kiku case, which he spent all of D1 doing. I don't know.

His 911:

Huh, finally a case that's actually spelled out and understandable. It's actually a pretty good case now that someone has taken the time to explain it thoroughly.

comes after Albert posts his case on Neto. This is rubbish and scummy as. Ojanen's case was better than Albert's, and the work to convict Neto had been done well before. The difference between Hewitt's defense of neto and hewitt's coming around and seeing it as a good case was purely that he thought Neto had been hammered by then. I think this is a genuine decision he made once the hammer had been case. That's probably the most telling post of the period you directed me too.

It ends with the personal explosion between the two of them. This is a slight town tell in my eyes, it looks like he's irritated at Albert's sway over the town after Albert suspected him. Scum could well be pushing back as well, but I think it's less likely.

I hope that answers what you wanted me to get to... I'm uncomfortable because it's not really my style to look at language. Looking back over it I'm not seeing the significance of that area. The bits I've posted are th bits I had the strongest reactions to, but I'm a slave to confirmation bias when I'm focused like that so meh. To me the biggest thing is the scum strategy. What do scum do when there are huge town v town arguments breaking out? Fan the flames and shut up. Aside from Scigatt, that perfectly describes Hewitt and Kise.

[farside22]

I really want the replacements to be taken care of. problem was saber is a hard person to read but something in my read of him said town.
Hewitt was almost strung up and neto talked about hammering him based on nothing at all. This has me leaning town on hewitt instead of scum.

[Ojanen]

Thanks Clergyman.

Above all, I'm looking for honesty.
Why did I ask about Hewitt there? Because of the completely explicit tirade and tying himself to Neto when the lynch was obviously and clearly unavoidable.
Identical to your argument about the Neto defending you when he was teetering above the grave, which I thought was a pretty good argument, still do. Although upon reread the circumstances were not too far of the last sentence in your description of hewitt:

OK, so now he actively defends Neto. This is interesting in that it's never been brought up (despite much discussion). I continue to think that it's hard to judge someone who is defending someone who is about to be lynched. On one hand, there was no reason to tie himself to Neto, on the other hand he was defending Neto for quite a while so he couldn't really do a 180.

So cue in a bit more uncertainty, as I mentioned.
So I did get spontaneity, didn't get a better read on honesty. You are obviously going to be biased on an argument about yourself, but the degree of double-standard applying it to others is still something I wanted to see.
(I disagree with several of the things you brought up on hewitt btw but that's not so relevant unless we're about to lynch hewitt based on them.
The later case by Albert was based on more widely accepted scumtells - I would pretty much expect people to find it more convincing on average.)
I'm looking for honesty because I was worried about acting vibes from some of your posts like the opening speech today.
(example:

Game over. If you guys can't get over CSL's self-vote, that's the road map to winning the game.

)
I could see a townie having a really strong feeling of patterns from D2 (I do know that's what you do very sharply), but I also could see the motivation for a scum having a straightforward plan and benefit of trying to file one more lurkerslot lynch in a really difficult dynamic for you. From yesterday I guess it's stuff like

Normally me too, but having three separate people flake is much more scummier than one, and it's been for two copmlete days AND the content that we've had has been shocking.
how extravagant.

calling KittyMo's post "shocking" and not checking whether Yarmond was ever on the site and stuff.
Ugh I'm not being very coherent.
I guess I mean the fact that if you're town, and if we lynch another town today it's gonna be a real challenge to pull it together for no town to vote you in lylo. Yet you're raring with confidence and seem to sometimes speak from these emotional plateaus and I don't think you have really checked some of your assumptions or had time to reread a lot or stuff like that. And I know you're good at acting and know how to use that.
You could well be right with your reads (and usually as town you are) and we agree on being very suspicious of the backround people, but yeah, something like that.
There's also some conventional stuff I'm not so sure about like

*is epically surprised that Kise would go with the standard 'CSL woz scum' line*
Honestly, that guy is scum.He should be lynched tomorrow. Shotty scum or not, Kise is no doubt scum.

You hate when people do this, it was used to lynch Shotty etc.
And sometimes playing up your expressed Neto suspicion on D1.

Meh, I don't really like this post but not sure how to explain it better or if I would want to. As I've repeatedly said I feel very townish impulses too. But just more uncertain because so many people seem town.

Still aaaaarghing, thread needs Kise and Scigatt/hewitt replacements to get anywhere.