Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[farside22]

I have just one question and when I feel a bit better I will get more thought into this game.
Ojanen: Why did you not read the game yesterday (game day) before your vote and comments you made?

[SerialClergyman]

Elli, I'm off to bed but give me a decent reason why you think that the scum didn't just sit around on D2. Because looking back at it, it was kiku vs shotty as the major feature, so much so shotty was demanding we lynch kiku on his death even after she claimed mason. So for what reason would scum jump to be on Shotty's lynch? If anything, it's the perfect time for the scum to back off shotty because he's just been seen in a 1v1 brawl with a near-confirmed townie.

Look at the style of the posts - do any of them look like scum fuelling the fire? Or do they look genuinely argued?

These are the sorts of things I was thinking about during the night and honestly, on style I can't pick someone out as scum and I can't see much motivation for scum to be there either.

[Ellibereth]

I don't get your town read on Scigatt/Saber.
He basically sat back for the whole kiku vs. Shotty thing and voted Shotty when it was clear he was going to be lynched.
I think one of hewitt/Kise could be scum, but not both.

[DarkLightA]

And I forgot DLA.
DLA, what does Neto being under the mod have to do with anything?? You even had the mod on your list.

I was chuckling at myself for putting the mod on the list, and... I dunno... I guess I just forgot that Neto was in the game and wasn't replaced. More of a town tell =)

[Ojanen]

Ojanen: Why did you not read the game yesterday (game day) before your vote and comments you made?

I have no idea what you mean.
I read the whole game already before my first big content post upon replacing D1.
After catching Neto I wanted to reread parts of the game again, which was delayed several times - I was on unexpectedly seriously limited access practically from 13th to 30th of December (traveling to/in Asia and back and working hard+computer problems), I still contributed but it left me always with too little time to reread to my contention. I reread the parts I thought were relevant to my vote before casting it though. During N2 I returned home and did all the rereading I wanted.

@Serial, thank you for that. Ugh. I hate that I really want you to be town this game. Symptoms of a white knight syndrome or something.
I actually sympathize with your scumread on Kise/Kittymo with a degree of caution, if I had to call it right now it would be Kise/Scigatt.
Can you please look at hewitt on pages 33-38 and tell me if you're seeing scum, really interested in that.

[Ellibereth]

@DLA: your current opinion on Scigatt, Kise and hewitt please?

[Ellibereth]

Does anyone have/know any games where saber was scum?

[farside22]

Ojanen: Why did you not read the game yesterday (game day) before your vote and comments you made?

I have no idea what you mean.
I read the whole game already before my first big content post upon replacing D1.
After catching Neto I wanted to reread parts of the game again, which was delayed several times - I was on unexpectedly seriously limited access practically from 13th to 30th of December (traveling to/in Asia and back and working hard+computer problems), I still contributed but it left me always with too little time to reread to my contention. I reread the parts I thought were relevant to my vote before casting it though. During N2 I returned home and did all the rereading I wanted.
.

Your post day 2 vs day 3 seem completely opposite. It's seems reading between the 2 you read the game more in your last post then day 2 where I felt you were just following what others were saying.

[Ojanen]

Does anyone have/know any games where saber was scum?

Yeah, I searched during the night, although didn't feel like I got much wiser from it. Most of these are shorter stints of replacement though.
viewtopic.php?t=11708
viewtopic.php?t=11668
viewtopic.php?t=12181
viewtopic.php?t=12037
viewtopic.php?t=12442
viewtopic.php?t=12650

Your post day 2 vs day 3 seem completely opposite. It's seems reading between the 2 you read the game more in your last post then day 2 where I felt you were just following what others were saying.

Please read me in iso again, don't really recognize myself from this, I think I've had plenty of initiative. My kiku exchange D2 wasn't following the least what others were sayng, also check out my D1 catchup posting. The only thing that has been vaguely following others was Shotty suspicion, who I never ended up having the time to iso to my proper contention (never voted him either).

[dramonic]

The Nth Votecount: Vacations are over!!

SerialClergyman (1): DarklightA
DarkLightA (1): Hewitt,
hewitt (1): Elli
saberwolf (1): Ojanen, DarkLightA, Netopalis
Farside22 (1): Saberwolf

Not Voting (7): Farside, Kise, SerialClergyman, Ojanen, Ellibereth, Hewitt

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is the 23th at 23:59!

Hewitt is WAY past due for a replacement, very sorry it didn't get in earlier. I'll get one in the shortest delays. Sorry again

[Ojanen]

Hmm, maybe that came out to too strong to farside. Surely the tone in my posts after the second reread and being out of limited access is different, but it doesn't mean I hadn't read the complete game already before.

[Ellibereth]

Something seems wrong with that votecount.
I'll go through the saber games later.

[DarkLightA]

I'm a double voter?

[Ellibereth]

@DLA: your current opinion on Scigatt, Kise and hewitt please?

[farside22]

Hmm, maybe that came out to too strong to farside. Surely the tone in my posts after the second reread and being out of limited access is different, but it doesn't mean I hadn't read the complete game already before.

I would really have to reread it I just remember my feelings at the end of the day about your suspicion on kik and your sudden switch. It just felt off.
It could be jet lag but I felt the need to question you further because of it.
I still need to do a read but right now this illness (I would normally call it a flu but TMI in my head says just leave the rest alone) is kicking my ass and the fact I'm stable at work without falling down is a true testiment of willpower.

[Ellibereth]

Through all of Saber's games, not once do I seem him voting for his scumbuddy. Anywhere. (Unless I'm missing something).

[farside22]

Things that bother me about Ojanen:

I am in Mongolia with varying access until 28th December.
Will get a post up, but likely not for the couple next days.

I remember thinking kiku looked like an viable scumpartner candidate for Neto while reading the thread. In fact that was mostly what I expressed wanting to elaborate on before the night and before kiku hammered. The hammer doesn't make her look exactly better. I'm gonna look again at it.

Suspects: kiku, Shotty, Kise (that's the new Yarmond slot right?).
I am gonna revise Serial slot but I'm not inclined to pile up on him at this point, his posts looked townish enough.

I'm kinda disconnected from my D1 notes currently, meh, a week ago feels like a lifetime ago. The bulk of the kiku notes would have been callouts for very reactive playing, isos promised not happening, lack of commenting on dramatic events which is a very useful scumtell, lack of positions.
Slight tone problems with Neto commenting stuff like

Oh, hi. Forgot you were playing. You seem to be doing an excellent job of going unnoticed

and not pursuing further. Something else too, don't remember, would have to look again.

I will decide my vote once I have reread Shotty, I'm deciding between kiku and Shotty atm. That will happen now or tomorrow night. Pretty tired, like always when I reach the computer currently.

In the end most of your argument with kik was in regards to her hammer vote and comments the next day thinking scum would hammer. Why would you think Neto would not hammer himself to stop conversation vs a scum buddy doing just that?
Again this was stuff that serial was bringing up more about kik which I disagreed with.

Then either lazy or tired (I will be nice and say tired to a long trip but after many promises of an analysis of both kik and shotty and only do one with a vote I want to say this quote bothered me)

Shotty analysis aint coming today either.

Still no case on shotty

unvote

I buy the claim.
Sorry for all the pressuring kiku, just couldn't get where you were coming from.
I'm good with a Shotty lynch. Content tonight when I have some more time.

Kise: We NEED content from your slot.

However willing to hammer on nothing at all:

Clogged up with getting from Mongolia to Japan to Europe and related stuff; taking time looking at things with wide eyes irl. Still approve of Shotty lynch and like the case. Content posting hard for me right now.
Shotty lurking at this point is a good sign.
I won't hammer in case Kise's about to do something but if I get access I'm also willing to do it soon.

I think you are the most likely scum on the wagon, and also consider you barely on it, and you are again defending yourself based on chiming in the hammer. Off wagon I'm still looking at Shotty and Kise. I'm keeping an eye on 2 others. Yes, I find it rather likely there was scum off wagon. No, that probability is zzz. I'm not looking at 6 people (actually 5 cause I know I'm town).

Why would you mention yourself in this statement when you were voting for neto at the end?

The Thirteenth Votecount: LYNCHED!

DarkLightA (1): SttB
Netopalis (7): Ellibereth, ABR, Ojanen, DarkLightA, Saberwolf, SC, Kikuchiyo
ABR (1): Netopalis
SerialClergyman (1): Farside
Kikuchiyo (1): hewitt
Not Voting (1): KittyMo

In short:

talked about a case on kik in regards to neto which never happened. Built off a case from SC in regards to her hammer vote.
Talks about voting SB with no case prior to this.
This is why I feel reading these days and reading today is like seeing someone who went back to read but didnt' bother to do it before.

[farside22]

Next up is Kise: I think this person has done far too much lurking.

[farside22]

Ugh kise is total useless so far this game.

My predecessors look like George Clooney compared to CSL. Get real. Don't think I haven't noticed you're riding my back due to lurking.

This made me LOL but on a serious note trying to bypass SC's comments about your lurkering this way just doesnt' sit well.


I'm not sure why kise is focused on Hewitt as scum do to Neto withholding his vote. Neto withheld his vote on DLA< CSL and hewitt. Just saying

That's basically all I have from kise. He is attacking SC based on Hewitt being probable scum with Neto and pushing Hewitt as scum based on the L-1 where neto said he would hammer but didn't.

[Scigatt]

I don't get your town read on Scigatt/Saber.
He basically sat back for the whole kiku vs. Shotty thing and voted Shotty when it was clear he was going to be lynched.
I think one of hewitt/Kise could be scum, but not both.

I voted for him at that time

because

his lynch was almost certain and I wanted to close off discussion during what was effectively twilight.(Also, because it took me that long to locate and process his case, but that's just me being sucky at replacing in.) The post where I mentioned I didn't like the case on his was before I found it, and it seemed like everyone was reacting to his attitude. I did(and still do) have some reason for suspecting SC, which I expressed earlier (but not very well). Note that I still haven't gotten the game 'in my head', but I have found a part of a single post which I think is quite revealing.

Finally, I feel kinda bad about lynching replacements immediately after they replace in. It seems to me that if we were going to lynch CSL regardless of what his replacement was going to say, we should have saved SC the trouble of replacing in and having to reread all of this, and saved the mod the trouble of finding yet another replacement in a game that already needed a ton of them. Therefore, I think that lynching SC today would also be ethically wrong, unless we find him scummy independent of CSL's acts.

This argument has absolutely nothing to do with SC's scumminess. In effect, instead of saying "We shouldn't lynch SC because he's town.", he says "We shouldn't lynch him.". Now, we know that Neto was scum, the only explanation for this that makes sense to me is that Neto was scum trying to defend SC.

[farside22]

I don't get your town read on Scigatt/Saber.
He basically sat back for the whole kiku vs. Shotty thing and voted Shotty when it was clear he was going to be lynched.
I think one of hewitt/Kise could be scum, but not both.

I voted for him at that time

because

his lynch was almost certain and I wanted to close off discussion during what was effectively twilight.(Also, because it took me that long to locate and process his case, but that's just me being sucky at replacing in.) The post where I mentioned I didn't like the case on his was before I found it, and it seemed like everyone was reacting to his attitude. I did(and still do) have some reason for suspecting SC, which I expressed earlier (but not very well). Note that I still haven't gotten the game 'in my head', but I have found a part of a single post which I think is quite revealing.

comments like this have me missing saber who I had a town read on this just comes off as anti-town.

[Ojanen]

@Scigatt: Happy scumday!
How much of the thread had you read before this post?
What is your opinion on hewitt, Kise, DLA?
Can you elaborate for a more concrete reasoning for your phobia of twilight/pre-certain-lynch talk; would you have hammered hewitt D1 to limit discussion?

@Kise: Your slot needs emergency content.

What do you think about Scigatt, hewitt and DLA? Do you have other suspects besides Serial?

---

In the end most of your argument with kik was in regards to her hammer vote and comments the next day thinking scum would hammer. Why would you think Neto would not hammer himself to stop conversation vs a scum buddy doing just that? Again this was stuff that serial was bringing up more about kik which I disagreed with.

I think I started from disliking that I felt she was trying to get towncred from the hammering that I thought was null at best. Then we just had a breakdown in communication in various fronts, I just couldn't understand her thought processes at all when I didn't realise the underlining influence and motivation from nighttalk with Albert.

Regards to the lack of Shotty case: if you look at my iso also from D1, I had him on my shortlist of suspects from the first post. Why I wanted to delay someone hammering after my Neto case and vote was that I wanted to have the chance to iso and elaborate on kiku and Shotty. When V/LA hit worse than I thought I didn't get a chance before the night. I was very V/LA during the night and never had enough time during D2 to read to my full contention, my original read of the whole game had been almost a week earlier when I got round to being here for the first time D2.
You can think lazy instead of tired and pressed for time if you want, but it's reflected in my other games on the site and trackable. One at that time ongoing is ended (viewtopic.php?t=12686) and in the mafia quicktopic (objectively no reason to lie there) I say on 17th, which is towards end of N1 here

I'm sorry, I didn't know I was going to be this limited on access! I hate dealing with my mafia games like this.I've gotten a new adaptor now, I tried posting yesterday evening but I've been having nonstop 12+ hour days with our rehearsals and jetlag remains + carryover sleep debt just hit me unbearably hard afterwards. I'm gonna construct some form of a post now though, although again cutting sleep time.
charlatan, I'm in Tokyo (well in a suburb in Yokohama right now). It's only my second time here though and I'll be flying to Mongolia tomorrow. I'm not in Asia on a regular basis.

That was just before the day here. I actually had to be very not lazy to get to mafiascum at all.

I think you are the most likely scum on the wagon, and also consider you barely on it, and you are again defending yourself based on chiming in the hammer. Off wagon I'm still looking at Shotty and Kise. I'm keeping an eye on 2 others. Yes, I find it rather likely there was scum off wagon. No, that probability is zzz. I'm not looking at 6 people (actually 5 cause I know I'm town).

Why would you mention yourself in this statement when you were voting for neto at the end?

If I understand the question correctly as referring only to the last sentence, it was the context: kiku was talking about probabilities and talking about 6 people on the wagon. I mentioned that even if I was randomly looking at the people on the wagon it still wouldn't be 6 but 5 from a wagoner's perspective.

[farside22]

Ojanen: Why did you ignore the comments I made about the interaction between neto/SC yesterday and bring them up today.

As for SttB yes he was on your scum list day 1 but you never wrote a reason.
As for the last statement I was a bit confused before but I think your saying you thought one of Kise/SttB (not on the wagon players) was scum and 1 of the players on the Neto wagon was scum. Is this correct?

[farside22]

Hewitt needing a replacement is a null tell. He replaced out of a game he was town and never responded I haven't see recently him doing it as scum but I say null tell.
Kise lack of posting and comments make me think scum.

Ojanen: You keep saying DLA is town but don't seem to regard his vote on SC as anything.....do you think his following right now is really town?
Also for every connection you give neto/SC I have one for DLA/neto. You didn't seem to respond to the fact either of them could be under the same category.

[Ojanen]

Ojanen: Why did you ignore the comments I made about the interaction between neto/SC yesterday and bring them up today.

I have shouted out a probtown read on him several times earlier, which I had since replacing in. People I suspected after Neto were town (kiku and Shotty), and process of elimination is radically cutting down the slots I think can be scum. I acknowledged that upon reread I came out more unsure of him on some aspects and it made me a little nervous to come across some of the early things again. If I have to say black or white town or scum it would still be town though. It's just hard to put any but 2 slots as considerably less likely town.

As for the last statement I was a bit confused before but I think your saying you thought one of Kise/SttB (not on the wagon players) was scum and 1 of the players on the Neto wagon was scum. Is this correct?

I'm not gonna check my iso now but I don't think I cared so much of the distinction wagon/not wagon as the way of being on a wagon or not being on it. My 3 suspects after Neto were kiku, Shotty and Kise, that is correct. I don't think I had any axiom of one on wagon and one off wagon per se.

Ojanen: You keep saying DLA is town but don't seem to regard his vote on SC as anything.....do you think his following right now is really town?
Also for every connection you give neto/SC I have one for DLA/neto. You didn't seem to respond to the fact either of them could be under the same category.

I don't like his play, no, but he reads as reasonably townish, and I my gut doesn't tend to read Neto's relation to him as scum. Neto defending someone vulnerable to early attacks is not something I put conclusive stock into, also, I'm getting some overcompensating vibes from Neto's play. DLA's one of the 5 I haven't eliminated of having some chance of being scum, but I think at this point he's probtown.
I haven't elaborated at all on SC/neto connection, not sure you're thinking of a post of mine there.