Mini 902: Pick your Poison 4 (Game over!)

[chamber]

I'm against the vengeful. My choice would be 2-shot roleblocker and godfather I think.

[CooLDoG]

I think a godfather should be on the list because most lynch don't happen because of our cop getting a scum report. Most lynches are made from in thread scummy posts. I also now (after carefully re reading the roles.) am in favor of a Vengeful.

[Yosarian2]

I think a godfather should be on the list because most lynch don't happen because of our cop getting a scum report.

The biggest problem with a godfather is that it would mean we can't get a true confirmed innocent from a cop, a masonizer, OR a weak doc without doubting it at least a little.

Godfather wouldn't be the worst choice, although it depends what the scum gave us exactally.

Most lynches are made from in thread scummy posts. I also now (after carefully re reading the roles.) am in favor of a Vengeful.

Really? Why?

[Porochaz]

saving to watched topics.

[farside22]

I'm starting to lean on rolecop/GF now.
rolecop may give the scum info but it will take a n1 or n2 with some luck to make a difference.
GF hurts us if there is a weakdoc/masonaire more as it leaves us a bit uncertain. However if we have a masonaire I notice that scum when having to talk to a town mason don't do well. The communication is sparse from the scum in comparison like they don't know how to handle questions or comments one on one.

[Leech]

For the mafia I think the best choices would be 1 shot Janitor and Godfather.

1 shot janitor is probably the most powerful role in that list of powers.

Why did you specifically chose the roles that could get fake confirmed results?

The janitor can only cover up a townie death. From my perspective this is equally as detrimental to the scum as the town. They know what town power roles are in play, but not who has them (which is why we shouldn't give them role cop), therefore they wouldn't know if the player killed was one of the power roles or not. We wouldn't either, but we have the advantage of knowing when the roles we give them, die. We will always know what's out there on their end, whereas if they were to use the Janitor ability, they would no longer know exactly what they are up against. To me, that ability takes away some of the advantage of knowing what you are up against. If they could use it on every lynch, it would be a different story, but it's only a 1 shot. I like the idea that once they use that ability, it can never be used again.

I don't really get your second question. The Janitor would appear as scum, the Godfather wouldn't. As I stated in my initial post, the Godfather role would only hurt us if we have a Vig or a Cop, which has yet to be determined. If we don't have either of those roles, then giving them that, really nullifies the power.

I'm definitely against giving them a rolecop, especially one that functions during the day. They could get lucky and kill a power role in the first night. I think it's a quite powerful role to give them, and one we shouldn't heavily consider.

[scotmany12]

Um.. the janitor could hide the death of a mafia member as well.

[Leech]

Not in this game:

You are a 1 shot janitor. Once during the game, before a lynch has taken place, you may PM me and ask for the lynched player's alignment to be covered up.

You may not cover up your own alignment in this way.

[Yosarian2]

Not in this game:

You are a 1 shot janitor. Once during the game, before a lynch has taken place, you may PM me and ask for the lynched player's alignment to be covered up.

You may not cover up your own alignment in this way.

Um, the janitor can't cover up his own death, but I certainly would think he could cover up the death of another mafia member. If he could only cover up the death of pro-town people it'd be pointless.

[Leech]

Well it's worded in a way that either meaning could be true. If I'm wrong, then that clearly changes my outlook on the role.

[Porochaz]

mod can you clarify the meaning of the bolded part in the quote in post 32

[Sajin]

My analysis:

A Vengeful is not as powerful as some imply it to be. It has no effect if its the last mafia nor does it have any effect if nightkilled by a vig assuming we have one. Lets examine:

Assuming a lynch every day and one successful kill every day it would not cause the loss of any lynches because we are starting at an even number. Therefore the situation Yoss described would unlikely come up (only with a weak doctor early death if we have one, and even then we could get a successful protection). If we do have a vigilante then the vengeful can be killed at night and be neutralized that way. 1st choice and an easy one at that.

A Rolecop is INCREDIBLY powerful especially this day version. While scum may know what the power roles are, they do not know WHO they are. If this role was selected I would expect power role deaths to happen quickly. The only way I would pick this would be if we think scum were stupid and gave us a double doctor combo. (If this was true then optimum play would be to mass claim to get the doctors on each other or force scum to CC a claim. 2 doctors that can keep each other alive would be game breaking and would likely win the game). 4th choice.

A roleblocker is a generic answer to all 5 roles. The existence of a roleblocker would make the informational gain from a weak doctor useless and it would be effective on the other 4 roles. Just no. Last choice.

Janitor is quite strong if used well to compliment a fakeclaim informational claim or to cause doubt on someone else's. I would rather stay away from it but it would be my 3rd choice. (assuming it can hide either alignment, it would be an easily first picked choice if it could only hide one alignment)

Godfather is much less powerful if it is known it is in the game for certainty and in this format it would be. Therefore this seems like a solid choice. Weak doctor can still find a godfather, etc. 2nd choice.

[Leech]

(If this was true then optimum play would be to mass claim to get the doctors on each other or force scum to CC a claim. 2 doctors that can keep each other alive would be game breaking and would likely win the game). 4th choice.

That's not entirely true. If we give them vengeful, they could just double-kill one of the docs, and then they know who to target next.

[Sajin]

Doctor wrote:
You are a doctor. Every night you can give me the name of a player you want to protect; they will be immune to

all kills

that night. You may not protect yourself.


Weak doctor wrote:
You a weak doctor. Every night you can give me the name of a player you want to protect; they will be immune to

all kills

that night. If you protect a member of the mafia, you will be killed that night. You may not protect yourself.

[ortolan]

yo guyth

1- If you were mafia, what 3 roles would you have given town? Why?

weak doctor, doctor, masoniser

2- what roles would be best to select for mafia, why?

On the basis of what I would choose as mafia, godfather and vengeful. However I'm well aware of the WIFOM of what scum chose (they may have simply thought "a cop is too powerful to include", or they may have thought "the town 'knows' a cop is too powerful to include, and would expect us not to include it, therefore we should." I would never give them a day rolecop or a janitor, screwing with reveals is horrible and day rolecop is potentially really powerful (I could consider day rolecop a bit more I guess).

I think that vengeful is an obvious choice for the mafia, it's simply an extra kill at some point (although they could use it e.g. to circumvent doctor protection).

I would say vengeful and godfather or vengeful and roleblocker.

I welcome arguments for why the daycop isn't that powerful though.

also we should definitely hypoclaim in case the weak doctor is in the setup.

more as it comes to me

[Yosarian2]

My analysis:

A Vengeful is not as powerful as some imply it to be. It has no effect if its the last mafia nor does it have any effect if nightkilled by a vig assuming we have one. Lets examine:

Assuming a lynch every day and one successful kill every day it would not cause the loss of any lynches because we are starting at an even number. Therefore the situation Yoss described would unlikely come up (only with a weak doctor early death if we have one, and even then we could get a successful protection). If we do have a vigilante then the vengeful can be killed at night and be neutralized that way. 1st choice and an easy one at that.

We could get on "odd numbers" with:

-A vig
-A doctor
-or A weak doctor.

If a town role prevents a kill, or a vig makes a kill, then we end up on odd numbers.

Besides, in any case, there's still a 2/3 chance that a vengeful ends up killing a pro-town player. It's even higher, if a vengeful decided to try to get lynched at a key time. Giving the scum 2 chances at night to take out power roles, or confirmed innocents, or just obv town players is a terrible, terrible idea.

Every other scum role has a much lower chance then that of doing anything. A scum rolecop is only bad if it finds a pro-town power role day 1, which isn't all that likely; a vengeful killer has almost the same odds of KILLING a pro-town power role as a rolecop has of just FINDING one on night 1.

The only way a vengeful killer dosn't hurt the town is if the town manages to not only lynch all 3 scum, but to lynch them in the correct order, to figure out which scum "wants" to be lynched first and lynch him last. I really doubt we'd be able to do that, and the amount of WIFOM we'd get from even trying would be crippling to our scumhunting efforts.

A Rolecop is INCREDIBLY powerful especially this day version. While scum may know what the power roles are, they do not know WHO they are. If this role was selected I would expect power role deaths to happen quickly.

The odds are against a rolecop finding a town power role night 1. If the scum find a town power role on night 2, they can't kill that person until night 3; and if the power role claims by day 3 (which is fairly likely, especally for town info roles), then it dosn't matter at all.

A scum rolecop increases the scum's odds of killing power roles early, but not by that much.

Janitor is quite strong if used well to compliment a fakeclaim informational claim or to cause doubt on someone else's. I would rather stay away from it but it would be my 3rd choice. (assuming it can hide either alignment, it would be an easily first picked choice if it could only hide one alignment)

It's quite strong no matter what. If we don't know if we lynched town or scum day 1, then day 2 we'll be stumbling around in the dark.

The strongest scum abilites are, by far, vengeful and janitor. None of the others are anywhere near as dangerous.

[ortolan]

Yos I agree with some of what you are saying, but this is bad reasoning:

Every other scum role has a much lower chance then that of doing anything. A scum rolecop is only bad if it finds a pro-town power role day 1, which isn't all that likely; a vengeful killer has almost the same odds of KILLING a pro-town power role as a rolecop has of just FINDING one on night 1.

Indeed the vengeful mafiate's

ability

is almost as likely to hit a PR as the rolecop ability is on day/night one, especially when used in conjunction with the scum's normal nightkill. But there's only a 1/12 chance of it being activated on day one anyhow (if the vengeful is actually lynched), whereas the rolecop resolves 100% of the time. That's an enormous difference which you have to take into account.

Also, unless you end up with massclaim or large numbers of claims before the end of day two, the rolecop gives them two chances to off powerroles with a headstart on the town identifying them. Your post seems to imply you think the rolecop is a night ability- it is a day ability.

[Patrick]

The janitor role can't cover up his own alignment, but can cover up the alignment of fellow scum.

[ortolan]

actually I think I've changed my preference to vengeful/godfather or rb/godfather

I don't see roleblocker being that useful- it is limited use and is likely to only be used against power-role claimaints. Then again I also don't see vengeful being that bad.

[CooLDoG]

One thing that is common is having the mafia have a gf role. The other role is sorta split between a vengful and a role-cop. Keep in mind that the role cop only gets 2 shots. The vengful only gets one shot but if we lynch him at a critical time we could end up making our game a bit harder. This could end up having huge implications in the end game. But if we lynch him early then his kill is more like a role of the dice (as far as loosing a power role).

[chamber]

I think a godfather should be on the list because most lynch don't happen because of our cop getting a scum report. Most lynches are made from in thread scummy posts. I also now (after carefully re reading the roles.) am in favor of a Vengeful.

What did you find in the careful reread that changed your mind? Your most recent post seems quite flip-floppy, may I assume you still hold the opinion put forward in this post?

[Yosarian2]

Yos I agree with some of what you are saying, but this is bad reasoning:

Every other scum role has a much lower chance then that of doing anything. A scum rolecop is only bad if it finds a pro-town power role day 1, which isn't all that likely; a vengeful killer has almost the same odds of KILLING a pro-town power role as a rolecop has of just FINDING one on night 1.

Indeed the vengeful mafiate's

ability

is almost as likely to hit a PR as the rolecop ability is on day/night one, especially when used in conjunction with the scum's normal nightkill. But there's only a 1/12 chance of it being activated on day one anyhow (if the vengeful is actually lynched), whereas the rolecop resolves 100% of the time. That's an enormous difference which you have to take into account.

The thing is, the rolecop only matters if he finds a role that otherwise wouldnt' have claimed. Whereas later on, when a vengeful is more likely to get his kill off, it's likely the scum will have more town claims or confirmed innocents then they can kill, unless they have a vengeful.

Also, unless you end up with massclaim or large numbers of claims before the end of day two, the rolecop gives them two chances to off powerroles with a headstart on the town identifying them. Your post seems to imply you think the rolecop is a night ability- it is a day ability.

That is true; I did forget it was a day ability.

Still, scum have a 3/8 chance of killing a power role night 1 no matter what, assuming they kill at random and no one claims. A scum rolecop raises that to, let's think; (5/8*3/8=15/64+24/64=39/64.) So, 39/64 instead of 24/64; there's a 15/64 chance it makes a difference on day 1 (a little less then 1/4 chance); that is, a 15/64 chance that the scum kill a power role night 1 when otherwise they wouldn't have killed.

And after day 1, the odds go up that some people claim anyway, at which point the value of the scum cop goes down dramatically. Honestly, when's the last time you saw a game with 3 power roles get to day 3 without any pro-town player ever claiming anything?

[Sajin]

Also Yos you did not factor in the open nature of the setup in adition to the day aspect:

We know there is 3 town power roles. No more. No less.

This means that should any make it to a end game scenario, town's lynch percentages go WAY UP due to scum needing to CC, claim a 4th role and thus CC or let them be cleared. For instance, 1 town power role in 3 man makes lynch percentages at least 50/50 (+reads).

A rolecop would negate the benefit the nature of the openess of the setup gives us by ensuring the above is not allowed to happen. Saying a rolecops functionality does not matter is ludicrous.

The benefit of any town role goes beyond its functionality. Its CC or be cleared role as well.

Vengeful is much less harmful then a rolecop is.

Chamber and porochaz, care to state some opinions here?

[chamber]

I'm against the vengeful. My choice would be 2-shot roleblocker and godfather I think.

[Yosarian2]

Also Yos you did not factor in the open nature of the setup in adition to the day aspect:

We know there is 3 town power roles. No more. No less.

This means that should any make it to a end game scenario, town's lynch percentages go WAY UP due to scum needing to CC, claim a 4th role and thus CC or let them be cleared. For instance, 1 town power role in 3 man makes lynch percentages at least 50/50 (+reads).

A rolecop would negate the benefit the nature of the openess of the setup gives us by ensuring the above is not allowed to happen. Saying a rolecops functionality does not matter is ludicrous.

The benefit of any town role goes beyond its functionality. Its CC or be cleared role as well.

Vengeful is much less harmful then a rolecop is.

Actually, the fact that we know there are exactly 3 pro-town power roles is exactly why vengeful is so much more harmful then any other role (except possibly Janitor, which also makes that information less useful to the town).

Think about it this way. We get to endgame, 6 people left alive, 2 scum. We massclaim, knowing there are two power roles. The vengeful scum counterclaims one of the two power roles, or else lies and claims a power role, because he's expendable. If we guess right and lynch the vengeful scum, then the scum get to kill both power roles that night, leaving us with no role-based info going into endgame.

In a game with confirmed power roles, and possibly other confirmed innocents, giving the scum an extra kill is HORRIBLE.

I don't see why you think that a rolecop "wouldn't allow that to happen". The scum are only going to get to investigate a few people, who then may or may not live until endgame; it's not like having a rolecop is likely to mean the scum will know the whole setup going into endgame.

Anyway, if you want power roles to survive until endgame, the absolute LAST thing you would EVER want to do is give scum an extra kill.