Mafia 107 - Christmas Time Mafia (Game over)

[ready2rock]

@pie: It's mostly, as I said before, his aggressive style of play. He tends to question people over and over again instead of giving his own opinions. As far as something specific he's done, I really didn't like him asking for people to vote on who we think is the most suspicious. I could see it as being a town tactic for getting the game moving, but I could also see it as scum trying to start a wagon (which it did). He also has not posted since then, as if he is just sitting back and let someone get lynched.

@DragonsofSummer: could you clarify your reasons for suspicion on TheLonging? What about those two posts that you mentioned in your vote post came off as scummy? And why do you find him more scummy now than before?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

@ Dizzy - You're really implying that inactivity isn't scummy at a point in this game where someone is at L-1 and there have been at least 3 people who have garnered no attention simply from not posting? I find that to be an (extremely easy to use) scum tactic to make it farther into the game. Not only that, but you actually posted when called on inactivity.

No. I'm saying that not posting within a very short period of time such as two days does not qualify as inactivity, particularly over a period of time when most people's lives are distrupted, such as the holiday period.

I would add to that that someone reaching L-1 in a game this size in this short a time is worrisome at best and alarming at worst. Given the speed with which is has developed, I'd say there's a good chance that maybe as much as half that wagon is scum m- especially if TheLonging turns out to be scum.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I do not accept the newbie card in large games. No one else should either. If you have put yourself in a position to play a large game like this one, it should be because you feel confident enough in your abilities to play this game without committing a scum tell in almost every post you have (unless your role wants you to be committing them, i.e. jester) and the way people are jumping on the "I MADE A MISTAKE!" thing and saying, oh well thats okay then really bothers me.

Then you're naïve to the point of ridiculousness if you think that most people have realistic ideas of their own ability.

[Konowa]

Bogre: I don't see how we could be connected. If he wants to vote for me, he should have done it.

Not speaking for Bogre here, but scum typically do not want to vote for each other. To this point in the game I think that TheLonging has been the scummiest and your reluctance to vote TheLonging until Bogre calls you out on it is scummy to me also, hence the possible connection. Bogre can correct me on this if I am misrepping what he is trying to say.

I'm going to stay strong on my no-vote for today.

Soras, I would like for you to clarify this sentence for me. By saying that you are not going to vote today, do you mean today December 30th today or today D1 game day?

@ckd - CSL has been replaced. Who is scum?
@Richard - What about Bogre's post do you agree with?

I would like to hear more from mal also, as I still do not like his earlier question about the position of the votes. r2r has also moved up to mildly scummy in my eyes for horrible reasoning given in post 175 as to why he finds me suspicious.

@pie: It's mostly, as I said before, his aggressive style of play. He tends to question people over and over again instead of giving his own opinions. As far as something specific he's done, I really didn't like him asking for people to vote on who we think is the most suspicious. I could see it as being a town tactic for getting the game moving, but I could also see it as scum trying to start a wagon (which it did). He also has not posted since then, as if he is just sitting back and let someone get lynched.

Let's break this down. I play aggressive, I do not see how you are holding this as a point of contention against me. I am pretty sure that I have voiced my opinion on several matters throughout the game. Also, you are calling me out for not posting and it has not even been 12 hours since my last post. Really? I really think you are trying to stretch something here.

I am going to go back and look over this wagon on TheLonging. When I suggested that everyone vote who they found the scummiest I really was not expecting almost everyone to vote TheLonging. I am still pretty sure that TheLonging is scum, but I am having a hard time believing that everyone that hopped on is town.

Preview Edit: Dizzy calling this out also 176 gives me town vibes.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

@ Dizzy - You're really implying that inactivity isn't scummy at a point in this game where someone is at L-1 and there have been at least 3 people who have garnered no attention simply from not posting? I find that to be an (extremely easy to use) scum tactic to make it farther into the game. Not only that, but you actually posted when called on inactivity.

No. I'm saying that not posting within a very short period of time such as two days does not qualify as inactivity, particularly over a period of time when most people's lives are distrupted, such as the holiday period.

I would add to that that someone reaching L-1 in a game this size in this short a time is worrisome at best and alarming at worst. Given the speed with which is has developed, I'd say there's a good chance that maybe as much as half that wagon is scum m- especially if TheLonging turns out to be scum.

EBWOP: Oh, and I didn't post because I was accused of inactivity, I posted because I turned up to read the thread.

And, btw, lurking is a null tell anyway.

[ready2rock]

@konowa: I should have clarified that I don't think that it is a strong case against you. If I were to rank the people I listed from most to least suspicious, you would be at the bottom of my list. I even said in my post that I could see your last post from yesterday as coming from a town player. The only reason I made that post was because pie asked me for my case on you.

The only reason I'm not removing you from my FoS list (and I almost did because you made some good points in your defense) is because of the last line

Dizzy calling this out also 176 gives me town vibes.

I find it odd that you would say that someone gives you town vibes because they agree with your point of view and someone comes off as scummy because they disagree with your point of view. This is also demonstrated earlier in the post when you found someone scummy because they did not want to vote for someone which, as I said before, is more a style of play than a scumtell.

I'm keeping a FoS on you, but it's really hard to get a good read on you at this point in the game.

[Fugitive]

EBWOP: Oh, and I didn't post because I was accused of inactivity, I posted because I turned up to read the thread.

And, btw, lurking is a null tell anyway.

Trust based arguments don't really work. That argument is just based on the fact that I assume you're telling the truth, which is never what one should assume in a defense. As far as the evidence suggests, you were called on lurking and posted shortly after.

I wouldn't say lurking is a null tell either, but I've already explained my stance on lurking, so we'll just disagree on that point.

I'm not getting a scum vibe on you though.

My only real FoS at this point in on Richard.

@ TheLonging - What do you think of the bandwagon on you diminishing a little?

[Konowa]

r2r, Dizzy pointed out the fact about TheLonging wagon before I did, so I do not understand what you are getting at. I was in the process of typing that post and when I previewed it I noticed that she pointed out something that I was thinking. Generally when someone thinks along the same lines as me, it gives me town vibes.

Regarding the non-vote, I had no problem with Richard saying that he is going to wait for TheLonging to say something before he votes. What I do find scummy is the fact that after he was called out on the non-vote by Bogre, he immediately tries to appease Bogre by voting and saying that he "agrees with what he [Bogre] said". This really just looks like a piggyback without having to give any original thought. That is why I asked Richard what about Bogre's post did he agree with.

Let me amend the question to Richard in fact.
@Richard - In your own words why is TheLonging scum?

[InflatablePie]

@sora: In that case, if people were to start moving their votes from TheLonging to Richard, would you vote for Richard? Actually, being that you've mentioned Richard as scummy, why would you not vote instead of voting for Rich?

@r2r: #180, you say that Konowa is least suspicious. Why then, is he on your FoS list? Shouldn't you FoS the

highest

people on your list, although mention that you found that statement odd?

@TheLonging: Out of all of the people voting for you currently, who do you think are most likely scum? In addition, if you could choose the lynch for today, who would you choose and why?

@Raven: In your recent post, you sort of stay on the fence about everyone but TheLonging. This person is kinda scummy but not sure, etc.. You say you have a gut feel about Konowa being scum, yet say he's town? What?

@Bogre: What are your thoughts/feelings on the recent votes for TheLonging?

FoSes are on Richard and pman.
Keeping an eye on r2r, sora.
Want to hear more from diddin, malp, curious, Nico, Anna.

[ready2rock]

Konowa’s opinions:

25: votes for pman for his posts on page 1

30:
doesn’t like the noob play that’s happening

likes Richard’s vote of Fugitive because...(see 42)

35:
too much newbie play

votes for Fugitive because he is avoiding a question

(which I didn’t think he was)

42:
“I agree with his [Richard's] assessment that Fugitive looked a little to eager to follow r2r's vote of Richard. The vote itself was pretty poor, especially considering everything else that was already happening.”

...so he thinks that the vote is good, yet poor?

77:
“unvote;

After thinking about it last night, I think I am getting more of a disconnect from Fugitive rather than a scummy vibe.”

OK. Fair analysis and unvote.

83:
“@Fugitive - I hate the RVS. I think everyone tries to get out of it as soon as possible. So in an attempt to get out of it as quickly as possible I wagon in RVS. I will attach myself to the largest wagon at the time and see how people position themself. There was no real reason for my vote other than that. As far as the CSL wagon goes, I really did not think twice about it. None of the votes of CSL really stood out to me.

@Navy - As said above, there was nothing that really stood out to me about the CSL wagon in and of itself. However, mal's 47 does not sit well with me as it looks like he is trying to project the fourth vote [DoS' vote] as inherently scummier than his.

@TheLonging - So you find nothing scummy so far? I find this a little hard to believe as there have been a few things that have happened so far that multiple people are commenting on. I think that Fugitive vs. me was just a disconnect between what I was looking for and what he thought I was looking. pman's "RVS is stupid", followed by a random vote, followed by a quick unvote initially seemed a little off to me but doing a cursory meta check it seems in line with newbie play. At the moment I find you and mal the scummiest. You so far seem to be just floating through the game without commenting on anything around you. Reasoning for mal is above. I will admit that the reasoning for both of these reads is slight as it is only page four and a number of people have not contributed yet.”

is suspicious of TheLonging because he disagrees with him that there is nothing scummy so far. Says that reasoning for suspicions is slight. Is suspicious of mal because of post 47 which to me is not the scummiest thing that he’s done.

86: clarifies his suspicions of mal

90:
“I am pretty sure that TheLonging is scum.”

This seemed to come out of nowhere to me, seemed like an OMGUS kind of situation.

97:
“What I am thinking is by no mean rock solid. It is, however, more gut than anything else. Before I lay out my thoughts I would like for everyone is who is not voting to vote who they think is the scummiest so far with a brief explanation why. This will help town out immensely.”

This is the post I don’t like. You want everyone to vote and state their reasoning before you do? Why? I will agree that it might help the town. What do you think that the town got out of this?

182:
“Generally when someone thinks along the same lines as me, it gives me town vibes.”

I do not like this at all. Just because someone finds me town or agrees with something I say does not mean that I will find them more pro-town. Likewise, I do not find someone scum just because they voted for me or don’t agree with my gameplay.

Final question to Konowa:

Why do you think TheLonging is scum? You have said it 3 times and haven't really given an explanation.

[ready2rock]

EBWOP to Pie: I meant least suspicious out of those on my list of FoS. Sorry if that wasn't clear

[curiouskarmadog]

Ok caught up.

@ ckd - What do you think of TheLonging wagon?

it is as good of a wagon as any, though I am uncertain what it is based on. the claim is interesting. Something about the green font makes it believeable for me. Not sure why that is, because it is green in the mod's post at the beginning of the game..question (might mean nothing)

@longing, why did you use the green font? Why not just say vanilla. did you copy and paste? if so from where?

@ckd - CSL has been replaced. Who is scum?

CSL is a horrid player and I don’t think I will be ever joining a game with him again.

Jury is still out for scum. There are a lot of “noobs” in this game so it is hard to read play as new or scum or what. Right now, not liking, Pie, Richard, or Para…. not liking their timing of their votes on Longing...just a vibe in regards to the timing.

Unvote

My revote was on him because of his lurking…but now he has been replaced…he asked for the replacement and I am pretty sure he is not mafia based on how he left. If I had money to bet he is vanilla town.

A little follow up for me please.

Also I haven't picked up my role pm? I was pretty sure I did, and have posted once, but I will do so again just to make sure.

So did you or did you not pick up your PM as the mod said?

-+-

Why is everyone is such a hurry to get the day over with so fast?

[ready2rock]

Question to everyone with their vote on TheLonging:

Given recent events, including the claim, do you still find TheLonging scum? If so, why?

[RichardGHP]

Question to everyone with their vote on TheLonging:

Given recent events, including the claim, do you still find TheLonging scum? If so, why?

This is to Pie as well, seeing as he asked. I had started to doubt my vote previously, but his claim sealed the deal. The way I see it, we have no hard evidence that he is a VT, or any non-scum role for that matter. Claiming Vanilla Townie doesn't do you a whole lot of good. I can attest to that from personal experience. We're technically all claiming townie, and the fact that he seemed slightly eager to claim, only to claim VT, cements him as highly suspicious in my eyes.

@r2r, quoting 42, I think he meant that Konowa agreed with my assessment that Fugitive was eager to follow you in voting for me, and that FUGITIVE's vote on ME was pretty poor. At least, that's how I interperated it.

[TheLonging]

OK, I have a lot to catch up on apparently. I'll be reading over the last page or so and posting replies

[Konowa]

Break this down.

Re: 42 - I think you are misunderstanding what you quoted. In the second sentence when I say vote, I was speaking of Fugitive's vote.

Re: 83 - At this point in the game, several things have happened in which opinions on them have been offered. Not taking a stance on anything that has happened so far is scummy. To this point he is active lurking to me, which is scummy. His post 81 to me just looks like a failed attempt to scumhunt. mal has posted four times so far this game. His 47 where he tries to deflect attention of his vote onto the fourth vote is scummy. Combine that with his disappearance and mal is scummy.

Re: 90 - Please explain how this is OMGUS.

Re: 97 - I do not see the problem with this. Wagons and discussion are the towns biggest weapons. Neither were happening on a scale that would benefit town. As I have already explained earlier, I still think that TheLonging is scum, but how fast and the fact that almost everyone voted TheLonging leaves me skeptical at everyone on the wagon being town. Currently I think that Richard is bussing scum.

Re: 182 - I know I am town. Generally if someone is thinking along the same lines as me, it means that they are having pro-town thoughts. Thus I get town vibes from them. I do not see what the problem is here. I would understand if I explained something in deatil and someone came along and piggybacked off of what I said. This however was not the case as I have already explained.

I am really having a hard time trying to figure out if you [r2r] are misrepping me or just misunderstanding me. Given recent events I have no reason to believe that TheLonging is town.

Here is why I think TheLonging is scum:
1)He has failed to scumhunt in what I think is a protown manner.
2)When he unvotes me he says that a few people are suspicious to him but fails to list them. I really do not see the town thought process behind this. Town should have no problem listing who they find suspicious. Scum are more reluctant to give reads on people because it might slip them up.
3)When he does post suspicions in 111 they are all for pretty poor reasons*.
4)He has backtracked on several things he has said so far.
5)His entire play thus far has been to me more about self-survival than anything else, which is a very big scum tell to me.


*Note: If TheLonging flips scum I am going to go out on a limb and say that one of CSL (now Annachie), DoS, or sorasgoof is scum based on the one in three rule. I have nothing to support this at the time but this is an indication of where my thoughts lie.

Still have to go back and look over the actual wagon. Will probably get around to that tomorrow.

[diddin]

unvote

, TL seems honest and it looks like he just made a beginner's mistake for me.

Pman however, starts out the game inconsistently in the RVS, then seems eager for somebody to hammer TL. Posting that TL is at L-1 without adding any other content could mean "hey mafia buddies, somebody hammer him quick!" Not enough to warrent a vote, but enough to warrant an

FoS

for

pman

.

[TheLonging]

@TheLonging: Out of all of the people voting for you currently, who do you think are most likely scum? In addition, if you could choose the lynch for today, who would you choose and why?

For the former question; out of all the people voting for me currently? Well I'm not so sure, although I'm inclined to say RichardGHP because of his intital reluctance to vote for me (which isn't bad in itself) and trying to say he wasn't attacking Nvay, even though he wasn't really. Like he's being overly careful of what he's doing. I wouldn't call that an outright sign of being scummy though. It's hard to say, I mean I have 8 or 9 people who voted for me, there may be someone in there who's bound to be scum. My FoS is on Richard, but really, that's it.

For the latter question; I wouldn't want to choose anyone to lynch because no one has been acting that scummy aside from me. Richard may be scum but I don't think his being overly careful is scumtell at all: it's probably his style of play. I wouldn't choose to lynch him.

@longing, why did you use the green font? Why not just say vanilla. did you copy and paste? if so from where?

I copy and pasted it from my role PM. Which is why I used the green font.

@TheLonging - What do you think of the bandwagon on you diminishing a little?

I don't really think much of it, just that some people are unvoting me because they may think I'm not scum.

[sorasgoof]

*Note: If TheLonging flips scum I am going to go out on a limb and say that one of CSL (now Annachie), DoS, or sorasgoof is scum based on the one in three rule. I have nothing to support this at the time but this is an indication of where my thoughts lie.

What is this "one in three rule?"

Also, @Pie, if someone can provide information NOT BASED on Richard's seemingly noobish play, then I might would vote for him. All he's done so far is the same crap he pulled in the Scorehero mafia game, and he was a Vanilla Townie in that one. I'm not saying that that game provides information for this game, but his style of play so far seems to be the same. I'd like to see something different, if you know what I mean.

[sorasgoof]

@longing, why did you use the green font? Why not just say vanilla. did you copy and paste? if so from where?

I copy and pasted it from my role PM. Which is why I used the green font.

Or you could have copy and pasted it from the first page, but I don't think you did.

[ready2rock]

OK Konowa, I think I did misinterpret some of your posts, especially posts 42 and 90, and you also posted some good rebuttals and reasons for the things you have done thus far. You also have posted more opinions throughout the game than I initially thought. Your last post satifies me, so I will remove you from my FoS list, but I am still suspicious of

pman5595, TheLonging, and DragonsofSummer

, but not enough that I can vote for any of them.

[Annachie]

Mod, my vote for TheLonging should not count as I forgot to unvote first. It is pretty surprising that nobody noticed it, but that was the point. TheLonging should've never been at L-1, technically speaking.
Nothing has changed about TheLonging being scum, though.

There was a point to you forgeting to do something?
Either you meant it or you didn't but you're claiming both.
Then unvoted when you were told your vote did count.
You didn't forget so why claim to?
Parama, explaine yourself please.


and R2R, please avoid the massive bolds. It's for a little emphasis or Mod comm's.

Pman, yes by that point a claim is generally in order.

Fugative "been at least 3 peoplwho have garnered no attention simply by not posting" Name them.

Dizzy #177. Granted, but this is not the newbie games. This is a large. If you sign up you should know what to expect.

Dizzy, Day 1 lurking in a large is a complicated tell. Newb's should lurk a little, experienced players shouldn't. Bad time of year for lurkers though.

[ready2rock]

TheLonging's post comes off a little more town to me because I think that if he were mafia, he would be more eager to put suspicions on other people and put a vote on other people and wouldn't bring attention to him acting suspicious. I'll keep my suspicions on him though because some of his posts just seem a little bit off.

To Annachie: sorry about the bold. I will use italics in a post like that from now on.

[Fugitive]

Fugative "been at least 3 peoplwho have garnered no attention simply by not posting" Name them.

At time of post:

-curiouskarmadog (I'm happy with his posts and answers to questions now)
-malpascp (still applicable)
-danakillsu (still applicable)

On could also argue that pretty much up to that point DragonofSummer and Dizzy avoided any votes and suspicion until they posted.

[Konowa]

Quick post as I am heading out the door.

@mod and all - Will be V/LA till next Monday due to New Year events.

I will address stuff when I get back.

Be safe kids, don't do something I wouldn't (which isn't much).