Mini 901: Real Time Mafia (Over)

[Annachie]

/confirm.

[Annachie]

Could you please run through that a little bit slower, and include you underlying assumptions?

[Annachie]

Ok, I think I see what you mean.

[Annachie]

Vote DeathRowKitty

For being too full of ideas.

Actually, I'm nt sure if it's a good idea or not. I want to think about it some.

[Annachie]

We immediately put a majority vote on CSL in quick time as soon as the thread opens.

You're proposing a random lynch? A completely random lynch.

This is so scummy because there is no completely random lynch! The scum always know who is town, or at least not part of their scum group.

You're saying that we'll lynch CSL if we don't find someone better, and you should realise that the scum can dominate if we find someone better. (Game history shows that D1 lynches are almost always town without someone stuffing up)

Let alone that CSL's opinions and theories will be tainted by being the lynch aparent and easy to get discounted.

vote Ellibereth

[Annachie]

It's given in a live game, but Adel did the research in the last couple of days.

That should be enough for you to find it if you want.

[Annachie]

Yes it does. D1 lynches are hard enough to get scum with, but you are pushing a random lynch, which with scum knowing who to targets aren't really random.

It can be hard enough to get a lynch up with the posibility of a no-lynch. Imagine when there is a default random-lynch on the table.

If you have reasons, real reasons for pushing CSL cough up because I believe that random lynching is inherintly scummy and you are advocating a random lynch.

[Annachie]

I wont say policy lynching itself is stupid.

One player in annother (live) game says that good policy is to lynch him D2 after he has given his reads.
One I see a lot is to policy lynch people who claim Miller.

But I didn't see any reason for a "Policy" lynch on CSL, and none was provided. So it's random and I think random lynching is inherintly scummy.

On Jan 5(?) Zor wipes the votes and we go live and at this stage I'll be voting Elli.

If she's so dead keen on having a backup lynch or whatever she calles it straight up, let it be her.

[Annachie]

Well I must admit, that thread Elli pointed to did mention CSL as a policy lynch target, but there were a lot of opinions against such policy lynches too. From people here that I respect.

[Annachie]

I'd rather look for people who are scummy in this game.


(and crap, I used a wrong pro-noun in #68. Sorry about that Ellibereth)

[Annachie]

I've never experienced Zwet, but in a large there's time to let them hang themselves so I wouldn't do that either.

[Annachie]

Policy Lynching = Scummy.

Reasons: Lynching a player you don't want in the game. Mostly a VT, whom, in the long run if you find yourself at lylo, you'd be wishing you didn't Policy Lynch.

This type of Policy Lynching has always been described to me as getting rid of players that you

don't

want at LYLO, reguardless of alignment, before you get there.

Tell me why you think different.

[Annachie]

Not quite the same arguement but if I may paraphrase Adel: Good policy is to lynch Adel after he gives D2+ reads.

Good policy for that said player is to make Adel's claim, "Get my reads and then lynch me" and link to games where it worked, or provide some other evidence of same.

After all, if the town wins then all townies win. Even if lynched.

That is a different type of policy lynch from what we are talking about.

[Annachie]

DRK, in that case he is earning his lynch with his anti-town playstyle. This is where I feel that this type of Policy lynching falls down.

It's not as terrible as advocating a random lynch though. That will always earn my vote.

[Annachie]

vote DKR

Of course it gets wiped in a day or so, but do you feel happier now?

[Annachie]

Vote DRK

As someone who replaced CSL in a different game ...

[Annachie]

vote: Vaya

for no posts in pregame.

As far as I know and remember, Vaya doesn't usually participate a lot in D1.

Then this game will be fun for Vaya.

[Annachie]

Unvote DRK

[Annachie]

Any reason for your unvote Annachie?

Also, you should be aware that there are no unvotes allowed in this game, the only way to remove your vote from a person is by placing it somewhere else.

lol, forgot about the unvote.

I didn't want my RVS ish vote to hang aroud for too long while I got distracted by a different game that's gone ballistic. (66 page D1 and counting)


Bigmc, Elli has done some scummy things but a policy lynch push on CSL isn't one of them. Calling for it to be the dafault lynch and set up as soon as possible however ...

[Annachie]

Vote Manho

There is no such thing as a random lynch, because the scum in the game will be directing it.
A random lynch is a lynch for no reason, which means we learn very little from it.
It is the reason that some is lynched, and the reasons that someone votes that gives the town the information it needs to identify the scum.

I worry that an early or artificial default lynch will be a disencentive for actual scum hunting. A default lynch that developes naturally is a much better option.

[Annachie]

Generally, the deadline will get the lynch. In this game, with no un-votes, and the default option, a default lynch will happen.

[Annachie]

That may be so DRK, but I submit that MalPascP's posts are scummier.

[quote][/quote]
For example.

[Annachie]

He posted once in pregame, and is now up for prod if I count properly, without haveing posted in the game.

Mal lurks from what I've seen. He can't here.

I will shift my vote as soon as Mal participates or gets replaced. "I'm sorry for not posting" is not participating.

Remember, in this game we don't end the day when we hit a majority, so extreme vote pressure on a lurker isn't as damaging as it could normally be.

[Annachie]

Ok, eaten post.

You're right he didn't

Too many players in too many games together.

[Annachie]

Annachie ( 1 ) DeathRowKitty

You know it doesn't actually help if you vote for me twice.

"Hey this is a serious vote that I can't explain but isn't one of my silly votes"

That's called OMGUS. It's also in part what you wanted CSL policy lynched for.

But I'll give you your reasons on a plate if you wish.

I was completely serious when I said we should start a wagon before the game starts. .... Vote: CSL, as per Elli's {{Policy lynch}} logic.

I am against policy lynching, and against rushing/forcing default lynches. Forcing wagons like this, in my opinion, is not good. It is anti-town at best.

If you think this is so terrible, then vote me for it. Unless of course you have a better lynch you'd like to suggest.

I was suggesting lurkers but ...

Join our policy lynch wagon.

"I don't know if CSL is scummy or not but lets lynch him."

If you had to pick a policy lynch for this game, who would you pick?

Still trying to push a default policy lynch. On anyone it seems.

Vote malpascp

CSL was scum. Therefore, malp is now scum.

CSL was scummy for disagreeing with policy lynching CSL, because that's the only thing I can find? Are you really going to try and argue that?

I wasn't seriously advocating a policy lynch on someone before the game started.

Rewriting history is scummy.

Vote: DeathRowKitty because he has the most votes!

Ok, let me get this right. You wanted to policy lynch CSL for self voteing, and then you vote for yourself?

This is a serious vote.

If you were doing the RVS thing, then this comment is typically scummy. If you weren't doing the RVS thing then you're saying that your last 4 votes in less than 2 days (or 5 of your posts) were, well I don't know what, but whatever it was it was scummy.

I am now forced to admit, I it was a mistake to try and pressure the lurkers. I should have been looking closer at DRK.

vote DRK

[Annachie]

I think DRK play seems like desperatly find something to lynch someone. This is scum thing to me. Specially in a game like this, people who play like DRK have to be lynched.

Vote: DRK

Im not asking for a claim or explanaitions. I want an hammer.

I agree Elli.

Just when I decide that I'll vote the player that seems the scummiest over the lurker, ...

FOS MalP

[Annachie]

Now you can vote for the scummiest player AND the lurker.

He's getting close.

[Annachie]

It's also in part what you wanted CSL policy lynched for.

I didn't want CSL policy lynched.

CSL's here...anyone up for a policy lynch?

Vote: CSL, as per Elli's logic.

I don't know what to make of you. You're sillyness is either masking the real scum, or you're a scum trying for some weird WIFOM. (ie: Scum wouldn't act so silly)

Either way, you're just about a lynch I'd accept. Add some interactions with Elli, to pick the most obvious, and it would be a lynch that could give information on other players.

Add the retcon, and well ...

We might find a better lynch of course, but I'd be happy with DRK being the default lynch.

[Annachie]

its about to get all pointless and stupid up in here.

unvote, vote bigmc

welcome to the jungle.

scummiest:

drk
tonymontana
annachie
mal

This is part of the pointless and useless stuff right?

[Annachie]

Juls. More the timing and the irony it provided. That and voting for someone not on his scummiest list and providing no reasoning so nothing he can be held accountable too, need I go on?

Anyway, Much as I wonder what DRK is up to sometimes, she's right about the lurkers.

Tony up for prod.
ManHo 36 hours
MalPascP 24 hours

Code: Select all

Elli 49
Annachie  29
DRK  23
Plumegranate  23
CSL  11  Mal  1
Zoraster  11
Manho  10
Juls  9
Snow_Bunny  9
Bogre  6
Bigmc  5
Vaya  3  Don_Johnson  2  (Just took over)
Tony  3

Tony and Mal bottom both lists for time since last post and for post count.
Why Snow_Bunny?

I'm ignoring Vaya/DJ due to recent replacement, but Vaya has put DJ under some pressure.

[Annachie]

*Crap, sorry about that DRK. I wear it so often myself that I really try to get it right.

[Annachie]

12 Alive

Snow Bunny ( 1 ) DeathRowKitty
DeathRowKitty ( 4 ) manho TonyMontana Juls malpascp
bigmc109 ( 2 ) don_johnson Ellibereth
don_johnson ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 3 ) Snow Bunny Plumegranate bigmc109
malpascp ( 1 ) Bogre
Plumegranate ( 0 )
Juls ( 0 )
Bogre ( 0 )
manho ( 1 ) Annachie
TonyMontana ( 0 )
Annachie ( 0 )
No Lynch ( 0 )
Total Votes ( 12 )

With 12 alive, 7 needed to lynch.
Next Lynch Available at: January 9th 00:00 EST
Lynch Will Be: No Lynch

Does this mean I support hanging someone right now and ceasing discussion?

2. At the end of 7 days, the last player to receive a majority will be lynched.

A majority doesn't end the day, the deadline does.

[Annachie]

I know, my point was that I didn't think we should rush to a majority just so we have someone set-up.

We are also in the (almost) unique position of not having to worry about hitting a majority and ending the discussion early, so there is no reason, besides claims I suppose, to hold off from voting.

[Annachie]

I'm reasonably happy with Elli's reasoning. I don't think his policy lynching idea was particulary scummy, though I don't like it.
DRK however seemed dead keen to rush through a lynch on anybody as a default, and along with other things, that I find somewhere between anti-town and outright scummy. If DRK gets flipped, and flips scummy then I would say Elli needs re-visiting due to some aparent voting patterns, and following the default lynch idea.

My main worry, as I think I said earlier in the thread, that if there had been a rushed default lynch set up, it would prevent a real lynch from occuring and that the default lynch's flip would have provided little to no evidence.

[Annachie]

*Ebwop, Elli's actions, not reasonings. Damn (my) kids.

[Annachie]

I have read CSL and have no problem setting him up as a policy lynch.

Do you want to clarify? Read him in this game, read him in others, policy lynch him in general?, Policy lynch him in this game specifically? Policy lynch him right now?

I'm sorry; I must have missed it. I could have sworn you were just throwing an occasional question Elli's way.

Questions and votes. Combined with Elli and you seeming to follow each other ie:"Vote CSL as per Elli's reasoning" and I have to wonder what you really have against SB. Or is it for the Lurking as you said.

[Annachie]

@Mod: Zor, I voted DRK back in post #167 but you seem to have missed it.

Fixed, thanks

[Annachie]

DJ, bit of an unfair question by me. CSL has already replaced out of this game, and his replacement has been relplaced too.

[Annachie]

DJ, on the policy thing. That's was basically my position. That if someone was so bad/dis-reputable or whatever that they deserved a policy lynch, then they'll earn one anyway.
What I disagreed with was the using a policy lynch to set up a quick default lynch as that would probably stop a real lynch from happening and we'd learn not much from it. Or so I believe.

Elli, why vote Flareon? (Though I'm wondering if I'll be able to guess myself in 24 hours)

[Annachie]

Flareonage. Do you think you learned much from your newbie game? You appear to have started this one differently.

[Annachie]

DRK has confused me from the start.

[Annachie]

anachie post 38 - why is too many ideas bad?

Random and Pregame.

Annachie post 177: Way to avoid juls comment on you.

Bah, too many games with too many newbies. I mis-read as what is OMGUSing again.
Both of us probably, though I was presenting reasons and I'm not sure DRK was.

Farside, the first non set-up theory post (How many scum groups and such) was probably DRK and I on policy lynching started by me thinking I had attacked Elli too much for calling for one. Probably part of the answer above.

One thing that concerns me though is that I said I wanted a wagon on CSL, not a lynch, which Annachie has since ignored.

It's also in part what you wanted CSL policy lynched for.

I didn't want CSL policy lynched.

I beg to differ:

Chu chu chu!

Vote: Elli

Join our policy lynch wagon. It's more likely to get us somewhere than a wagon for Elli mixing up his games.

Policy lynching will net you my vote. Do not try it.

I'm on your policy lynch wagon. Do I get your vote for that?

Yea right, didn't want a policy lynch.
Btw, Plum's (I believe) was the most recent post on this retcon of yours. I've also posted your own posts calling for the policy lynch after your previous claim of not wanting one.

I also note that your in QT post about becoming serious and your in thread post about becomming serious, both of which didn't sound right btw, were on different days.
(QFT: "This is a serious vote." is the comment I took as becomming serious.)

Let alone wanting to policy lynch CSL for his actions in other games, then acting the same way yourself.

Change in play style, scum tell.
Retcon history, scum tell.
Random or silly play, anti-town.
Trying to get a bandwagon on yourself, anti-town.
Not claiming, despite being at L-1 twice, anti-town.
Managing to vote for both your neighbours, and out them. That can't be good for the town.

[Annachie]

12 Alive

Snow Bunny ( 0 )
DeathRowKitty ( 5 ) manho TonyMontana Juls Annachie Plumegranate
bigmc109 ( 0 )
don_johnson ( 0 )
Ellibereth ( 2 ) Snow Bunny bigmc109
Flareonage ( 1 ) Bogre
Plumegranate ( 0 )
Juls ( 0 )
Bogre ( 0 )
manho ( 0 )
TonyMontana ( 0 )
Annachie ( 4 ) DeathRowKitty don_johnson Ellibereth Flareonage
No Lynch ( 0 )
Total Votes ( 12 )

With 12 alive, 7 needed to lynch.
Next Lynch Available at: January 9th 00:00 EST
Lynch Will Be: DeathRowKitty

DRK is town, Annachie is scum.
Assuming that the amount of town > scum in the neighborhood, DRK claiming and revealing his neighbors was the right thing to do. If DRK was scum, and he claimed such (when his lynch is looking already all but inevitable in face of the deadline), it would virtually confirm two members of the town after his flip.

We have 2 hours to get Annachie lynched.

Yeah clearly because I haven't self voted, called for policy lynches, retconned what I've said, changed styles etc.

I've merely stood by what Ive said and voted the most scummy, so I'm obv scum because those are such strong scum tells.

[Annachie]

Elli. Name one thing that I've done that is scummy.

your reasoning shouldn't make somebody look scummy, their actions should

Tell me that DRK's actions dont make him look scummy.

A scumtell is something that scum have more motivation to do than town

Tell me how trying to force a default policy lynch on a player at the very start of the game helps town more than scum.

I don't think you've ever mentioned any reason you've had for voting me except that I'm against poliy lynching and voting DRK. (and voted you as well)

[Annachie]

I'm here!
Anna didn't answer my question.

Which question?

[Annachie]

Elli. Name one thing that I've done that is scummy.

You've had two hours, time you spent trying to drive a wagon on me and claiming my ISO was scummy as hell.

But you are yet to provide one thing.

Just one.


Doesn't matter now that the day is over.

BTW, something Annachie said in another game made me think he was scum here, but it's ongoing.

Now that you've made my position in every other game I am in untenable, I'm left with no choice.

Mod: replace out

[Annachie]

and thus my problem reveals in all it's glory.

Scum in this game driving towards a lynch and no night break, scum in a rapid 5 player game with Eli that had just started. One optimal strategy for Vengence mafia was for me to dribble scum because if Elli got lynched in that game scum looses. But anyone looking at that game with the both of us in it might have assumed that that was the one Elli was talking about and voted me here. Let alone a flip here affecting that game. If there had been a night break I would have had time to ask people for advice, and in the end I over reacted. Oh well.

Specifics.
1: I suspect that next time the mod needs to be a bit more careful selecting players to make sure that they are high activity type people.
2: I don't think the balance was that bad but I had a lot of time thinking of when I'd use the bussing power, and I didn't get many good answers. I bet that Ani might have felt the same about the re-direct.
3: Not sure. I was just about to advise the other scum to hold off on the kill to try and suck information. I think the kill could have been used tactically to mess with the votes and really screw the town over.
Personally I think town lost to being manipulated too well and people not paying full attention/getting lost.
4: I noticed that watching.

Zor, I was so disapointed that I felt I had to replace out. This game interesed me most of all and is the one I regret leaving. I'd happily play again, though maybe with a couple more players and perhaps a gun smith or a JoaT
Maybe not so much "twilight time" at the start of the game either.


DRK, I assumed that the various QT's would be pulic after the game and have no problem with it.

Fishy, Juls, Farside. I lost count of the number of times I screamed at you while reading the scum QT.

Also, after being called 'her' a few too many times in other games, despite the male gender sign and claiming to have fathered multiple children, I've stopped playing using the Annachie ID. Using something else now.

[Annachie]

But I have seen games where three neighbours were all town. Hell I was one of them. Would have sworn that one of the neighbours in that game was scum but no.