Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[Ellibereth]

waitwaitwait, what?

[DarkLightA]

read for yourself.

[farside22]

*mutters to self about not wanting to throttle DLA*
*mutters about ABR*
*starts to lose mind over the WIFOM*

[Ellibereth]

*mutters to self about not wanting to throttle DLA*
*mutters about ABR*
*starts to lose mind over the WIFOM*

Would you be up to ignoring all that crap and gp after Shotty?

[Ellibereth]

EBWOP: going after*

[farside22]

*mutters to self about not wanting to throttle DLA*
*mutters about ABR*
*starts to lose mind over the WIFOM*

Would you be up to ignoring all that crap and gp after Shotty?

Let me get on this read tomorrow. I will have tons of time tomorrow for a read up on shotty. I need to prepare myself not to be taken over my some of his attitude early on.

[Ellibereth]

Meh.
SC! I know you're there! Drop your argument with DLA a sec. Don't you still think that Shotty's scum?
And DLA, if you're so intent on following Albert, You know he did say he believed hewitt's claim.

[SerialClergyman]

Sup elli, I'm around but haven't dived into the arguments too strongly, still hung over from yesterdays argument with dla!

I do still think shotty is likely to be scum, yes. I'm on my phone, I'll try to do a decent post soon.

[SerialClergyman]

Ugh, Christmas is owning my time.

Reading through Ojanen and kiku I'm liking kiku less and less. I don't get why she utterly refuses to acknowledge that her hammer cut off conversation, that her place on the wagon is at least partially opportunistic etc etc. I mean, if she'd come out and said 'yes, I didn't care about the conversation, scum was there to be hammered and I got it done, I don't care that I was late on the wagon, I wanted to make sure he was going down and anyone else can just deal with it. If you don't want to consider me part of the wagon, good on you' then I'd sort of dig the style - reckless but effective. But she's trying to walk this pseudo-innocence line where she won't admit that we were waiting to hammer, won't admit that it cut off discussion, won't admit her position on the wagon is tenuous etc etc. That's not reckless townie :S.

Also her position on me is bizarre.

In any case, self voting is not a scumtell. Ever. I would say it more often than not is a townsperson acting stupid. I see nothing which indicates SC as scum. It seems that we should be lynching Netopalis, ABR, Shotty or Farside.

So this is the first time she mentions Neto, towards the end of the day. She also says that there's nothing to indicate I'm scum.

Then she asks for a vote count, then posts her questionairre thing, then hammers.

The next day she asks us to concentrate off the wagon. BY HER OWN ADMISSION, I call her on it and she starts to attack me.

Funny. If you are going to make an accusation, please back it up. I specifically started the day by saying we should hunt off the wagon. Serial was on the wagon. I am not attacking him and I have not voted him. I am remaining active and responding to everything. If you take the time to reread you will plainly see

that it was Serial who attacked me.

And yet within 3 posts of D2, kiku was calling me scum.

I get that. It just doesn't jive with your assessment(in the same post) that Neto is going after the easy lynchbait targets. You are trying to have it both ways and I think Albert was keenly aware of this issue regarding your stance. Also, omgus cases are terrible so I inherently disagree with your assessment. I think you are Neto's scumpartner and you were trying to fence sit.

As far as I can tell, kiku didn't find me scummy or want to push for my lynch until I attacked her. This also corresponded to a massive rise in activity. She's already typed about as much today as she has the entirety of D1. I'm really, really not getting enthusiastic don't-care-what-you-think town from her description of her hammer and her positions just don't seem to gel.

And THEN apparantly:

Actually, Serial was on the wagon and started the day as my biggest suspect "on the wagon".

*facepalm* This is despite her finding nothing scummy about me D1 (see quote above) and despite this:

No. I am saying that because Neto defended multiple players the way he did, that we might benefit from finding another way to scumhunt than simply trying to determnie who he defended most. Especially among inactive players.

And finally - her first post today asks this quesiton:

Serial: Why exactly did you find Neto scummy? Refresh my memory.

But I never remember kiku ever giving a SINGLE reason why she thought Neto was scum, and only floated the idea (with 3 other lynch options) after everyone else had weighed in and started to find him scummy.

There is much to be suspicious of in kiku's play. I've played with her twice before and I could see lurking, and I could even see unapologetic hamering, but her play today has been contradictory and bizzare.

-----

I don't get DLA going over to Hewitt. I don't think that Albert actually believed Hewitt based on the claim, because quite frankly I don't see much reason why scum would claim mason - it's demonstrably false and if it even required a counter claim (a 3-man voting block and no other masons coming forward would surely prevent that), all it does is expose a mason, which is hardly fantastic for scum. But whether that was his reason or not, Albert deifnitely seemed to dismiss Hewitt as a possibility for scum, and I'm going to trust that read. Plus Neto was shaping up to hammer Hewitt wasn't he?

Having said that, I'd like Hewitt to get in here, his lack of activity is a contrast to yesterday.

DLA - Did you read Ojanen vs kiku? Do you have an opinion on Shotty?

---

Shotty is another person whose activity varies greatly depending on whether he's directly addressed. I think he's scummy for the many points I've already raised and gone over with him. The only new points to add to that really are the fact that Neto flipped scum, he was off the wagon and was pushing for an Albert/DLA scumteam, which looks like a chainsaw to me.

See:

ABR where did you go? I need you to talk about Neto.

Well, Albert has successfully ignored most direct questions this game so far despite attempts to the contrary. I need to reread Neto and someone else,

@Albert: I think I see where you're coming from on Neto, but he still doesn't strike me as poorly as some of the "easy" (aka scum) lynches.

Looks like I missed all the fun while I was writing my final paper.

He then was VLA for 2 days, but still didn't post for over a week.

Sorry guys, going to catch up here in the next couple days or so, I fell pretty far behind in all my games, just caught up in another.

I would've been down to lynch Neto if I couldn't have DLA lynched, but I sort of had finals to do.

That final quote - that just isn't bourne out by his actions and posts at ALL.

Then aside from all that, there were the attacks on Albert once he started ot push Neto.

I encourage everyone to unvote vote DLA. ABR is an obvious scum-buddy to DLA considering how much DLA was vacuumed to ABR's opinions and as newb-scum didn't know any better to hide all the blatant buddying big enough to choke a horse.

Who pushed Hewitt's lynch the hardest? ABR and DLA? Last time I checked pushing mislynches was bad? Hewitt said the same thing in 278. Why aren't you busting his balls?

when earlier he'd said

How is that a misrep? You accuse me and ABR of not contributing (which, at least in my case, is a flat-out lie) and use that as a scum-tell. That would imply that YOU contribute unless you're admitting to being scum? He never said you were a top contributer just that you don't contribute either, so now you're misrepping him.

unvote, vote hewitt

So what changed in ABR's play? Why did he go from WITH Albert and AGAINST Hewitt to WITH Hewitt and AGAINST ABR?

Well, this happened:

I feel this way also. I don't like going for the easy targets on Day 1. You're not an easy target, hewitt, I'll give you that. The problem here, is that you're barraged from all sides and at two dangerous inches from a sudden death. I am not an unreasonable man. I will accept an unconditional surrender of you, hewitt, to me, Albert. If you swear fealty to me, we can hunt down Netopalis. What do you say?

Shotty's first post after this one is 381, quoted above, where he first starts to say that ABR is likely scum.

Finally, his continuing to push the case on DLA smells bad. I really, really doubt that DLA is scum, and Albert's town flip should have shaken that belief more strongly.

---

So where do I sit? Ugh. Not enough nooses.

I'm going to go with kiku for now. They are both good lynches, but I don't know enough about Shotty's play, and he's nothing if not aggressive. He looks to me like it's possible he's feeling out scum and is just totally not on my wavelength.
Kiku on the other hand I have a solid meta on and I know her playstyle quite well. Her play on D1 was relatively standard, but the massive chance in activity, the contradictory positions, the lack of backing her own decisions and everything - that's really set off alarm bells. She's very intelligent and a strong player and I just simply do not get her reasons, thought process or conclusions.

So I'm on board for a kiku wagon. If the above hasn't convinced you, I urge everyone to read OJ vs kiku above, I think it's very clear who's scrabbling for ap osition and who is making sense. If it was anyone but Ojanen I'd declare them town but she's damn, damn good as scum. Call it a townly-indicator.

vote kiku

Shotty - feel free to ask me any questions or respond to any of the above as well, if you get a chance.

I don't know how many more big posts I can make around holiday time. Have a merry Christmas everyone.

[Scigatt]

Another critic, I'm doing fantastic in finding them this game. I don't even know what 'attitude' there was in that last post. Any content you want to discuss, Scigatt?

It's not that I think you're scummy, it's that I find your attitude really annoying. Also, it seems that others are responding to that with suspicion too so it isn't helping whatever faction you're on.(If someone can direct me to a good case on Shotty in D1 then that would be great. If there's a case in D2, I'll find it myself.)

As for content, I've been spending the last few days looking at all of Neto's posts after CSL replaced in(~p.150).

A few things I've noticed(This has covered before, but bear with me here)

-Neto didn't start complaining about CSL until he started gathering votes(~p.375). I'd think if Neto was truly concerned about CSL's play he would have brought it up earlier, but I'm not sure.

-Neto's 'attack' merely consisted of deriding CSL's play. He doesn't even vote for him, only mention the idea of a policy lynch. Instead he goes on an irrelevant rant on how bad CSL's play was(p.423).

-As for SC, almost as soon as he replaces in, Neto goes form a weak 'attack' to a strong defence on that slot. Note that we know Neto is scum and that he had some indication on the reaction before he started his defense(ABR's 484). Later on he even goes so far as to invoke 'ethical' reasons to keep him in the game unrelated to his scumminess:

Finally, I feel kinda bad about lynching replacements immediately after they replace in. It seems to me that if we were going to lynch CSL regardless of what his replacement was going to say, we should have saved SC the trouble of replacing in and having to reread all of this, and saved the mod the trouble of finding yet another replacement in a game that already needed a ton of them. Therefore, I think that lynching SC today would also be ethically wrong, unless we find him scummy independent of CSL's acts.

This is well beyond anything which could have been expected of him, town or scum, in a defense. Given this, the only plausible interpretation IMO is that Neto was trying to prevent his partner SC from getting lynched.

-One more minor thing, I was glancing at Neto's iso(I didn't want to do my reading there because I wanted to get context.) and I noticed that his random vote was on SC's spot. This doesn't mean much, but the point of the RVS is that the votes aren't truly random.

tl;dr:I'm happy with where my vote is atm.

Now to catch up to D2.

[kikuchiyo]

Ugh, Christmas is owning my time.

Reading through Ojanen and kiku I'm liking kiku less and less. I don't get why she utterly refuses to acknowledge that her hammer cut off conversation,

Could I have waited? Yes. Let's move on.

that her place on the wagon is at least partially opportunistic etc etc. I mean, if she'd come out and said 'yes, I didn't care about the conversation, scum was there to be hammered and I got it done, I don't care that I was late on the wagon, I wanted to make sure he was going down and anyone else can just deal with it. If you don't want to consider me part of the wagon, good on you'

I thought Neto was a good lynch candidate. The fact that noone was crossing over to hammer him suggested to me that one of those players was most likely scum if Neto flipped scum. I got antsy. I hammered. Sue me.

That's strange, its almost like you're making shit up without even reading the thread. All of the things you describe me not saying seem to have already been said.

The next day she asks us to concentrate off the wagon. BY HER OWN ADMISSION, I call her on it and she starts to attack me.

You were one of my top two suspects coming into today.

You were one of Albert's top two suspects from yesterday.

I stand by the statement I made earlier that I think we should hunt off the wagon today. Help us find your scumbuddy.

As far as I can tell, kiku didn't find me scummy or want to push for my lynch until I attacked her.

Untrue. I was pretty solid on your connection to Neto. If you note, I even asked a question at the end of day 1 to see how many others saw the same connection.

This also corresponded to a massive rise in activity. She's already typed about as much today as she has the entirety of D1.

Would you rather I lurk? Please note that I did not accuse you of anything without giving you an oppurtunity to explain and defend yourself. My engagements have all been pro-town and pro-discussion.

There is much to be suspicious of in kiku's play. I've played with her twice before and I could see lurking, and I could even see unapologetic hamering, but her play today has been contradictory and bizzare.

Anytime you want to point out a contradiction, feel free. I have been focused on the Shotty/DLA/SerialClergyman grouping from the start.

So where do I sit? Ugh. Not enough nooses.

^^^ Not a very protown statement here. Townies should be focused. This is poor play coming from you.

So I'm on board for a kiku wagon. If the above hasn't convinced you, I urge everyone to read OJ vs kiku above, I think it's very clear who's scrabbling for ap osition and who is making sense. If it was anyone but Ojanen I'd declare them town but she's damn, damn good as scum. Call it a townly-indicator.

Wait. I'm scum because I appear town? But Shotty is just too difficult to read? Am I misreading this? Funny how you choose me over Shotty.

[dramonic]

The seventeenth Votecount: Christmas is Here!

SerialClergyman (1): Scigatt
Shotty (1): Ellibereth
Hewitt (1): DarkLightA
Kikuchiyo (1): SC

Not Voting (6): Kise, SttB, Ojanen, Kikuchiyo, hewitt, Farside

With 10 alive it take 6 to lynch!
Deadline is the 8th, but it can be extended.

If Hewitt doesnt respond before the next time I check my computer (which could be a little while) he'll be replaced.
So... votecounts will be a bit more spaced due to the Christmas vacations and my more limited access, but I ain't forgetting you guys!

Merry Christmas

[kikuchiyo]

I think I did misread your post SC. Are you saying that in reading Ojanen vs. kiku that you are actually considering both of us to be scum? That if it was anybody but Ojanen that you would think them town? So because its Ojanen and she's good at being scum, you entertain the possibility that we are scumbuddies, partnered with Neto?

[SerialClergyman]

Sleepy and drunk, can't respond properly.

Was saying that Ojanen would be auto-town because of her awesome posts, except she's very sneaky scum so I won't clear her because I fear her (rhyming prowess only rises while drunk.)

I don't know who she'd be buddies with tho. I'm pretty comfortable with Ojanen town.

[kikuchiyo]

Yet you continue to elevate your status as obvious scum imo.

Vote: Shotty

I'd like Shotty to contribute or hang. SC is most certainly scum, no need to rush him off to the gallows.

SC: I hope that when you do respond, you include an appropriate analysis of someone other than me. (psssy: try your scumbuddy Shotty)

[SerialClergyman]

Appropriate analysis like the giant wall of awesome directly above you totally nailing shotty? You're weird and wrong and probably eeeeevillllll. Quit trying ot muscle in on my cases. First Netto then then Shotty. I was here first!!

lol

I should go to bed. It's 3am. Gonan disturbin Santa!

btw being sure I'm scum and not voting me is also weeird. You're weeeird.

I like you though You'd get presents if I was Santa.

[Ojanen]

Serial - links for your kiku town meta? Very very interested in that actually, since I can't seem to connect to her at all here.
Watch out with the flattering buddy, you'll raise my alarms.
(Guess if my attitude to you is similar under the surface btw.)

[kikuchiyo]

ebwop: Just realizing you've analyzed Shotty a bit. You seem to think he's scum. You're not going to get me lynched today. Why not hop on his wagon?

Also, all townies should be following Albert's lead today. We know a couple things:

A) He's devilishly handsome.
B) He was hot on the trail of most likely, the entire scum team.
C) He laid out his suspicions rather well, and also boldly embraced his town reads.
D) He was a mason. Which means he spent the evening most likely coaching his mason partners on who to pursue and how to do it. Every self respecting townie should be acting as if they were a part of that conversation. SerialClergyman is making it extremely blatant that he was not a part of that conversation, plus he is blatantly ignoring Albert's day 1 behavior towards certain parties thereby discrediting his reads. Anti-town, anti-town, anti-town.

SC is so scummy that I would be comfortable waiting until lylo to lynch him while we sort through this mess and find his scum partner.

[Ojanen]

OMG I missed the last posts.
Kiku I find your posts crazy or scum. I should sooo be sleeping but I don't think I can resist responding in a bit.

[kikuchiyo]

Are you kidding? Post 1060 clearly shows that Serial is not paying attention. He says that he would believe me if I said certain things. I quote where I said the exact same things. I haven't dodged anything today. I have responded to everything. You don't find it odd that he is reluctant to lynch the player who is most likely his scum partner(Shotty)?

[Ellibereth]

I also mention Shotty has posted 15 times in 2 other topics since last posting here.

[Shotty to the Body]

Funny how Kiku says follow Albert even though he didn't think I was scum (ala post 645), but she wants to lynch me hardcore.

vote kiku

for abusing a conf-town's arguments, beyond the blatant misuse it's a fallacy at best. there's obviously a host of other arguments to lynch kiku that I haven't had time to read, I apologize for my absence here the holidays take up most of my time.

[Ellibereth]

The problem isn't buddying - thep roblem is he was scum according to your theory of the game. I thought Albert was town, i said so repeatedly and make no apology for it. You outlined a theory that you fought tooth and nail for, apparantly, that had DLA scumbuddies with ABR and then just sort of stopped that theory and started buddying Albert by pushing to 'talk to him' about the Neto wagon. You don't see anything wrong or unusual about that?

Shotty, who was the someone else when you said you had to reread Neto and someone else?

[farside22]

Based on my read of what ABR left and without giving any clues to the scum what I feel I found
Based on ABR's own scum list and comments right now.

FOS: SC

FOS: kiku

I have to agree that post is a big load I don't like how you go off of your vote when SC pressures you right now.

[Ellibereth]

damnit guys, you're all getting so distracted by kik.