Alright, well glad to be here, thank you atleast to arafan. Through I may end up voting for you before this day is over!
Happy mafia-obstructing Holidays, and test-times!
Problematic in my last game as well. Like a half-populated game..
Oh well, where was I, what am I doing....oh yes! Sorry if it's a bit disjointed, but it was a lot to look at and it's very late.
This has got to be the longest I've seen a player remain so intentionally silly and obstructive in a game. In addition to not being in any immediate danger of being lynched. Might turn out to be the focal point for a lot of analysis and much of the early game. In my mind, probably what 'idiot' wants (this might help, only referring to him deragatorily, or maybe never mentioning his name again and ignoring every single thing he says). I remember someone saying they hadn't played a game where policy lynching non-constructive/active players ever was neccessary. I have! We used to call them, rudely I know, "baggage." Usually new people with 4 words to say when pressed, "I am not mafia." The idea is the same. When it comes down to having to make the right decisions, you absolutely cannot have these people in the game. 'There's a reason policy lynching exists,' maybe Hito said this I don't want to go back and find it. But it is absolutely true.
He's not in immediate danger of being lynched, for being scum or on policy, which I find strangest of the entire "episode." I'm leaning towards town for scvm, but not because of anything he's done or said. (I mean, unless I'm missing something, in practice he's basically stuck with xvart and buttonmen since page 1).
humble poirot wrote:
We WONT GET INFO from lynching 5cvm. It would be useful ONLY if he was scum. And he is not. I can read that much from his behaviour. He wouldn't be bold enough to pull such a stunt if scum. I'm sure.
Alright, this first part is ignoring the scvm-gorillaz connection, and some of the argument around aranfan. And I think it would reflect on hito as well, and buttonman. In fact, I think this is just a very lousy, very inaccurate statement. Knowing anyone's alignment allows you to go back over the game and look at how people treated/reacted to just about anything. And the second part, hito adressed this already, but this second part is just as unfounded. I somehow doubt that you can really believe this. You can say, 'my read on scvm is town.' But you've stated it unequivocably. 'He isn't scum'!?? At any rate, if u say this while buying into the attack on gorillaz's confidence, well, that would be bad news.
Seems to me that strangeness follows scvm wherever he goes this game.
Initially, I really didn't like hito's attack on scvm. Not that it was bad in and of itself, but before that point, it seemed like he was gliding a little, popping in then and again and making very reasonable sounding posts. But on page 8 he says that he's missed a lot and "been out of this game". At this point, instead of coming up with something, or really trying to catch up with the discussion, he goes with the lynch scvm mission which we have here today.
hito wrote:
Why are we not voting 5cvm. To everyone not voting 5cvm: What are you waiting for, exactly?
There are many answers to this question, and they are all obvious.
That said, hito has posted several things that I generally (and specifically) agreed with during my read-through
hito wrote:
That is a really really stupid thing to be sure of. Are you stating, right now, that you are going to treat 5cvm as confirmed town all game? What magical powers gave you that one, exactly?
Funny, and spot on.
hito wrote:
And for the record, while I'm happy to lynch 5cvm
regardless of his alignment
, I'm growing increasingly sure that he probably is scum here. This pattern, of let's ignore him -- wagon building -- wagon dissipating is what I would expect - as scumbuddies bus him before realizing, hey, we'll actually be able to keep this loon alive.
The bolded phrase always worries me a bit...and I've found a way to explain people's actions around the wagon suggesting that scvm is actually a townie. I mean, look. He's absolutely anti-town being a dueche. And he may not get lynched right now. There's like 4 people pushing for him to be kept alive. THAT doesn't seem odd to anyone else?
I know you've discussed/defended this briefly, saying you'll keep an eye on him, and I can understand you not wanting to go at odds with your main supporter on the policy lynch, but brosius came into the game, said two things, and basically slid right into your pocket (and there he remains). One would think you may have begun questioning this, or protesting in the slightest, between then and now.
The disagreement between you and those defending scvm (and his play! An absolutely inordinate number of players imo!) is interesting. You say the burden of proof is on them, because your position is one of dead-lock pro-town policy. But this situation we have is a little unique. And at this point, I can't say I like your commitment to treating it like a 100% run-of-the-mill policy lynch scenario. And that's where some of the disagreement with you is coming from.
Another problem I've had with your argument hito, whenever someone says 'look, scvm's doing better' or 'if we wait, he might improve, or he'll grow tired of his own shenanigans and might become productive' etc. (button's been in his corner, in that sense, for the longest I believe), you maintain that he is not going to change his habits ever in this game. Neither side of this hope/argument can be substantiated or really argued, but hito consistently sounds as if he
doesn't want
that to happen---for scvm to play differently or contribute useful information. And the question there would be, why?
It would be interesting to go back and see who really has been circulating around the wagon, and/or getting off/back on...that is, after we know his alignment. Before we do, what exactly can be learned from examining these behaviors cannot be known. Again, I can't believe what humble said about scvm's alignment not mattering.
Xvart, gorillaz, buttons... having so many people flatly defending scvm like so many attorneys (and that his lynch didn't happen/is not happening as easily as it could have) makes me lean town for scvm. And I'd have to go over the thread again (when it's not really really late) and see who looks the worse for this. I really didn't like how xvart just left the policy-lynch position. He waffled about it before, but then seemed on board, and then got off again. Almost like seeing he could get away with leaving scvm alive (or following the lead of his partner who had already been doing it).
And there was this I really didn't like, Post 279
xvart wrote:
Now on to business: Since my concern about TheButtonmen stalled out several days ago I am going to unvote him and move on to more pressing concerns.
Pretty please correct me if I'm wrong but... your case stalled, no one cared, a BW didn't start, so you decided to go elsewhere?
So, it must have been the concern stalling out in your head?...that's a pretty weak concern to have over 250 posts into the game :/
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I realize this is my opinion replacing in, had I been playing the whole time I could better understand some of the aggravation, and I probably would have been calling for scvm's lynch as well. But at this point, I'm leaning town because so many people have refused to vocally and votily remove him as an element of the game. And the scum (probably two of them) have been pro-keeping-scvm-alive. --Side note: do we know the roles? How many scum are there? AND How do you do an ISO view on a player?
xvart wrote:
I'm jumping ship on this 5cvm wagon. As I thought more and more about it, my justification is absurd, that being the connection between 5cvm to Evilgorillaz would require that 5cvm is town. Lynching a townie to maybe prove someone is scum? I'm embarrassed I even thought such a thing.
Maybe this was addressed, but it caught my attention. Not scummy perhaps, though certainly some spotty/faulty reasoning. Noted.
chibo wrote:
Everything you said there about Scott is perfect, and what I said in the first part of this reply before I read your post. Scott seems to be taking the easy road out and going for the easy 5cvm lynch which seems all too convinient for him, especially with just replacing in.
This basically sums up brosius' play so far. And was absolutely my feeling when I read his first post. It is forgivable to a degree (Damn you scvm). But scott showed little interest in pursuing anything but this incredibly easy road. And I know its a MS "no-no", but rite was flying pretty low there for most of the game. I should say Scott showed little interest
EXCEPT for when he decides that gorrilaz has outside knowledge of alignment, and then he proceeds with that attack.
brosius wrote:
He is defending 5cvm very strongly. His lazy attempt of scumhunting is everyone on the 5cvm wagon.
If 5cvm flips town (and EG as scum knows that 5cvm is not town) he can get town points since he defending 5cvm, and go after people on the wagon. It is the extreme confidence that he has speaking of 5cvm as if he is town that disturbs me. I think he has more information than the rest of us.
This whole post reeks of you KNOWING 5cvm is going to flip town. I don't think a townie would be so confident in this
You didn't get very specific with this. But writing an entire post under the impression of a personal read could create this. Especially when it's a read you already voiced, and defended respectably I thought. Also, you sound like you stumbled upon this just now when this point had already come up and been dealt with to some degree, lending credibility to earlier claims that you have been skimming the thread. Also, if you think that scvm might be scum, your two foci are mutually exclusive, given the evidence you're working with. So do you think there's a good chance for scvm to be scum? Or is he iredeemable? How is he damaging the game right now such that you have to hang him? And is your belief in your case on gorillaz enough to grant scvm more air-time? Or grant him innocence?
I think that scvm's hijinks have led to either easy-wagoning or easy-defending. Interesting, but pretty annoying. And if he is scum, I'm not sure what it will lead to. I just feel like the scum benefit more form keeping him alive if he is a townie than they do if he isn't. Which is generally why I think he's still alive and people are defending him. (For one, any scum defending scvm=scum, is sticking their head str8 out. So far, they get townie-cred either way. A "nearly" useless investigation by a cop- especially if scvm gets lynched later. Continued uncertainty. The list goes on, far outweighing simply keeping one of their number around) Hito's, scum reluctance to vote a buddy in this situation, doesn't fit as easily. Maybe it's just opinion? But I expect to stick to that read unless something drastic happens.
Squirrel has been awfully quiet, and confid needs a replacement obviously. I only noted with him that I generally agreed with confidanon's points about scummy behavior vs. anti-town behavior, which were getting mixed up in the discussion, and I have a good feeling about him. I hardly noticed chibo on my read-through. And I don't know if that's good or bad yet.
And lastly, the single worst thing anyone has posted-award has to go to aranfan. Suddenly voting for a lurker who was being replaced could just be newbie antics, or a newb-tell, but to explain it or write it off as something good for the town (or a favor to the mod wtf), that was just waaaaay off.
So I guess, replacing can be really disorientating haha, but atm I'd be willing to vote for aranfan, hito, brosius (rules out hito in my mind) or one of the people who has defended scvm- especially anyone defending a person who initially called for not lynching him (if someone can make a good case, or if I come up with one after reading again, thinking xvart maybe).
Hito-Aranfan possibly?
Hopefully, if he doesn't get lynched, scvm will succumb to his concience!
There were somethigns that made me think if scvm were town, he should be defending aran and gorillaz, although I can't remember where or what they were now (and this was also dependent on him actually trying to figure things out or win the game as a town player)[/u][/b]
Get on it!
