Open 188 - Tweed Mafia - Over!

[yabbaguy]

Vote: farside22

This is difficult, I will admit. I have a feeling that one of the invisibles (Scott and Jason) is scum, considering how the others' scumminess doesn't bowl me over.

Farside has been doing scumhunting that has been absolutely useless. The basis of her scumhunting has mostly been the debate between Suave and Nikanor, and ends up with the conclusion that Suave is scummy simply because he didn't think through his meta case. I think Suave was ridiculously wrong, but calling it scummy seems jumpy to me.

Other problems:
-asks everyone "how would you get out of the RVS?" Mafia discussion is nice, but there's a forum for that. We've got a game to play, and this derails town discussion, which is scummy.
-vote on Nikanor felt out of place
-She said "Meta is overrated," yet, again, she focused on it extensively. No less concluding with a vote based on what she had witnessed in that argument. Scumhunting contrary to stated beliefs is scummy, because scumhunting is town. Scum just "scumhunt" depending on what's convenient and will not get them killed. If it means opportunistically ditching your lurker beliefs and going after the helpless sap (Sorry Suave), then by golly, that's a great idea.

Suave hasn't done anything terribly scummy, to me... even though he's awfully tied up in the debate. To me, that's poor scumhunting, but still feels pro-town.

[MrSuave]

it's not that I'm uneasy to be playing with him. I'm just extra weary of him, and his tendancies. plus I don't like to lose to him, cuz he's a poop face =p.

[farside22]

Most of the talk is either Kitty and what she did or meta talk. It's hard to get away from meta talk when people are using it as a basis.
My vote on Suave is because he is misrepresenting how Nik act when town vs scum.

[Nikanor]

Vote: MrSuave.

MrSuave, please answer my question.

@Nikanor et al: Do you think Suave is scummy for trying to start this meta attack? Despite thinking the argument was poor to begin with, I personally am uncertain on the whole issue of scumminess. However, I don't really feel this was terribly scum opportunism at work at the moment... but I may be wrong here, so I want to see where you all stand.

Starting a meta attack itself is not scummy. MrSuave is scummy for pushing a meta case that is inaccurate. He even decides to not answer the question I've asked him multiple times. He refuses to acknowledge the fact that his evidence is faulty, and that is scummy because it says to me that MrSuave is happy pushing a lynch based on inaccurate information.

[MrSuave]

what question?

[Nikanor]

This question.

[yabbaguy]

what question?

Suave, this can't be anything other than dodging.

Farside- Okay, I'll buy into the meta-oriented discussion point, esp considering the attempts to join into other discussion are present. I don't buy into the voting rationale though, you called it a backtracking issue before. I think that and "misrepresentation" are two separate problems.

And again, why would you ask a theory question in-game that accomplishes nothing? This is exactly the reason why RQS fails as a mechanism to begin the game.

[XScorpion]

If people did continue to RV, I, as I did, would vote the first person to random vote. If no one did RV, I would have chosen to vote for a different reason. Why was this not obvious?

This does not answer my question. Did you actually suspect that the latter case (no one RVs) was likely to happen?

IMO it would be stupid for scum to put themselves in the spotlight at the very beginning of the game. That's exactly what they're trying NOT to do.

WIFOM, and I'm really basing this on my last game... a goon disrupted RVS and started a RQ(uestion)S with the purpose of trying to gather information about town for the scum to use. He got lynched day 1 (due to my preemptive hammer vote), so I'm leaning towards the same thing going on here.

How, in context, do you think what I said would lead to rolefishing, especially since I didn't continue to push talking about power roles?

This is just a gut feeling on my part. Like I said, "even in this context" where it really isn't that scummy to be mentioning roles, I just have a hunch.

Also, if you're so concerned with scum going under the radar, why did you vote me, the player currently most mentioned, besides, perhaps, MrSuave?

I'm not incredibly concerned about scum going under the radar, but I think others should give it some thought. As I said, if I was scum I would have easily made it through day 1 already without anyone seriously questioning me.

And finally, WHY DIDN'T YOU READ THE ENTIRE THREAD?

I tend to have more success in catching scum when the scum in question is attacking me...maybe this only happens in newbie games, but every scum I've caught so far was caught after he/she attacked me. It seems that general opinion here is that scum aren't going to fall for that this time around. I suspect that what I did might have generated more discussion if you hadn't been drawing so much attention already.

[KittyMo]

This does not answer my question. Did you actually suspect that the latter case (no one RVs) was likely to happen?

What I guessed would happen is that a couple people would still Random Vote, but that it would cause fewer people to random vote.

WIFOM, and I'm really basing this on my last game... a goon disrupted RVS and started a RQ(uestion)S with the purpose of trying to gather information about town for the scum to use. He got lynched day 1 (due to my preemptive hammer vote), so I'm leaning towards the same thing going on here.

> What kinds of questions did he ask?
> Which of my questions in particular think are information about town for the scum to use? How would they be more helpful to scum than town?
> Do you have any reasons to believe that I play scum the same way the guy you're talking about does?

I'm not incredibly concerned about scum going under the radar, but I think others should give it some thought. As I said, if I was scum I would have easily made it through day 1 already without anyone seriously questioning me.

If you are not concerned about it, why do you think others would be? Do you believe all the scum are people thoroughly mentioned? If so, why would you be trying to tell people something you don't believe? >>

I tend to have more success in catching scum when the scum in question is attacking me...maybe this only happens in newbie games, but every scum I've caught so far was caught after he/she attacked me. It seems that general opinion here is that scum aren't going to fall for that this time around.

How often do town players attack you?

I suspect that what I did might have generated more discussion if you hadn't been drawing so much attention already.

Huh?

[XScorpion]

What kinds of questions did he ask?

His questions were somewhat more scummy than yours ("What would you do in X situation?"), but the general idea is there.

If you are not concerned about it, why do you think others would be? Do you believe all the scum are people thoroughly mentioned? If so, why would you be trying to tell people something you don't believe?

While I didn't expect EVERYONE to come down on me, there is usually at least a few people who put pressure on lurkers...I'm surprised that there is nothing like that going on in this game. I do not believe that all scum are thoroughly mentioned, but I believe it likely that at least one of them is. Obviously I would feel more comfortable if there were no lurkers, but I realize that such a situation is very unlikely on day 1.
My mindset now is that I believe that there are 1-2 scum among active players, and 0-1 scum amongst the lurkers. Today I feel it best for me to focus on active players, then tomorrow I will likely be lurker hunting if necessary. I did not expect everyone to share my mindset, hence my surprise that no one has attacked me yet.

Which of my questions in particular think are information about town for the scum to use? How would they be more helpful to scum than town?

I don't believe it is very productive to speculate on what scum might or might not say to get information about town.

Do you have any reasons to believe that I play scum the same way the guy you're talking about does?

No, but on the flip-side, I have no reasons to believe that your play is more town than scum.

How often do town players attack you?

As town, I've found that most lynches on me have actually been lead by scum...go figure.

[KittyMo]

While I didn't expect EVERYONE to come down on me, there is usually at least a few people who put pressure on lurkers...I'm surprised that there is nothing like that going on in this game. I do not believe that all scum are thoroughly mentioned, but I believe it likely that at least one of them is. Obviously I would feel more comfortable if there were no lurkers, but I realize that such a situation is very unlikely on day 1.
My mindset now is that I believe that there are 1-2 scum among active players, and 0-1 scum amongst the lurkers. Today I feel it best for me to focus on active players, then tomorrow I will likely be lurker hunting if necessary. I did not expect everyone to share my mindset, hence my surprise that no one has attacked me yet.

I'm starting to get really confused. You WANT people to attack you for lurking, but your main method of scumhunting is to catch scum making crappy attacks on you?

Also, there's 3 scum in this setup. Where's the missing number coming from?

I don't believe it is very productive to speculate on what scum might or might not say to get information about town.

Basically, I want you to explain which of my questions you think someone who is not town would ask. Since you have yet to do that; you've just said that some guy in a game you played with a while back asked scummy questions.

No, but on the flip-side, I have no reasons to believe that your play is more town than scum.

You seriously have no reason whatsoever to believe I'm town? That's pretty sad.

How often do town players attack you?

As town, I've found that most lynches on me have actually been lead by scum...go figure.[/quote]
That's not really what I asked.

[XScorpion]

Also, there's 3 scum in this setup. Where's the missing number coming from?

Apologies, not used to this format.

Basically, I want you to explain which of my questions you think someone who is not town would ask.

I think all of the questions you've asked could be potentially useful to scum, particularly your questions along the lines of "is XX scummy". If you were town, you wouldn't need to know what other people think is scummy - only scum care about whether their actions might appear to be scummy or not.

That's not really what I asked.

Town players usually don't initiate attacks on me except when I am scum.

[KittyMo]

This argument is coming to a standstill because you are so convinced in your tunnel vision that you're not considering the fact that I could be town. You're not allowing anything I say to sink in.

Until you bring up a point that isn't "I think this is scummy because I think it's scummy and you can't change what I think is scummy," I'm not going to respond to your case anymore because it's a waste of the small amount of time we have before reaching the deadline.

I hope that at some point during Day 1 you'll at least look at who my supposed scumbuddies are or do something besides claiming that people who are the most anti-town are scummy, when you've been being anti-town on purpose.

I'ma go iso people and also decide if you're overconfident-tunnelvisioning-hypocritical town that can't even remember how many scum they need to lynch or if you are scum.

[yabbaguy]

Town players usually don't initiate attacks on me except when I am scum.

[farside22]

why would you ask a theory question in-game that accomplishes nothing?

I'm sorry I have a lot going on today with x-mas shopping. What question was this your talking about?

[XScorpion]

Town players usually don't initiate attacks on me except when I am scum.

No WIFOM here, this is a statement of facts. Of all the games I've played, the majority of lynches on me are lead by scum players, with the exception of my games as scum.

[XScorpion]

EBWODP: That is, the majority of ATTEMPTED lynches.

[StrangerCoug]

I think that's true of a lot of people, XScorpion. You can't automatically call people scum for attacking you.

[XScorpion]

True, but I find it raises the chances of them being scum by just a little bit.

[yabbaguy]

@farside- You asked "what's the best way to get out of RVS?" To me, that just doesn't serve any purpose to the game, and is just a pointless theory question that doesn't allow anyone to act scummy. Scum can nicely cover their buddies like that, allowing them a safe means of participation without making them look bad.

@XScorpion- Regardless of whatever acronym one opts to use from the alphabet soup of possibilities, the point is that the motive behind posting something like that is that you want us to falsely correlate "Scorpion is town, and since anyone going after him is often scum, and Kitty is, Kitty is likely scum."

Doesn't matter what you want to call it, hell, call it the BBQ fallacy if you want. It's a fallacy, and it's bad logic. And you look like scum using it.

By your policy, I now have gained scumpoints in your book. And yet I think this logic is completely sound and pro-town. So you just can't generalize like that.

[XScorpion]

Except that Kitty isn't going after me, so I don't see the correlation.

[Lowell]

very strong townvibes coming from yabba.

[yabbaguy]

And yabbaguy racks up his first major blunder of the game... *headdesk*

[yabbaguy]

(simul w/ Lowell)

[XScorpion]

very strong lurkervibes coming from Lowell
see what I did there?