Mini 199 - Time Travel Mafia, Game Over!

[N_lich]

I think SO's latest post reeks of CrapLogic and scumminess. I don't have time to explain now (dinnertime), but I will in my next post if anyone wants me to.

Absolutely, especially since SO seems to be the guy in the spotlight at the moment.

Q: How confident are people about yesterdays lynch?


P.S. Talk to us bob

[Changling bob]

Sorry for not posting, loads of issues have come up irl recently, reducing my onlineness considerably .

Regarding n_lich's Point and FoS: The reason for trying not to analyse the other game too much is because any number of things could change since then, either from new ideas since the last game, or critisisms of the last game. For example, we're given more information about how time travel works in this game, whereas in the first game several townies accidentally claimed by not knowing how time travel actually worked.
Also consider this: Mr Stoofer suggested we look back at the first game, and then later claims backup doc: a role from the first game but which we can't verify. Now this could obviously be true, but then again it could be a scummy 'look, it was in the last game' ploy.

Regarding how confident I personally am of Mr Stoofer's lynch, one thing stands out to me. When asked how much time fuel he has he responds 'Why?'. This comes after having pointed out that he's claiming the same roll as is in TT1, in which if memory serves, the backup doc inherited the original doc's fuel. As Mr Stoofer had already claimed his ability, I don't see any reason why he (a) shouldn't say, or (b) need to ask why we need it. More information is (usual) always beneficial to the town (barring deliberate misinformation, obviously).

@Nox: Quagmire wasn't lynched. Would you care to explain what you mean by what you said? Or was it just not thinking before you spoke?

[Nox]

ChanglingBob: I meant nightkilled, not lynched. Sowwwy :s

[Gaspode]

Argh! So sorry I haven't posted. I was at the George Parks Drum Major Academy in Kutztown, PA from Friday to Monday (yeah band nerds!) and completely forgot to mention it in the thread. I'm kind of in a reality shock right now. I'll catch up and post tomorrow. Again, sorry I didn't say anything.

PS: Yes, I'd be happy to elaborate on my SO comment, but I need to continue catching up on life at the moment and get to sleep soon.

[mole]

Regarding how confident I personally am of Mr Stoofer's lynch, one thing stands out to me. When asked how much time fuel he has he responds 'Why?'. This comes after having pointed out that he's claiming the same roll as is in TT1, in which if memory serves, the backup doc inherited the original doc's fuel. As Mr Stoofer had already claimed his ability, I don't see any reason why he (a) shouldn't say, or (b) need to ask why we need it. More information is (usual) always beneficial to the town (barring deliberate misinformation, obviously).

On the other hand, I don't really see how this information in particular helps the town. If Stoofer was telling the truth then knowing how much time fuel the doctors get could help the mafia a lot more than it helps us.

[Changling bob]

On the other hand, I don't really see how this information in particular helps the town. If Stoofer was telling the truth then knowing how much time fuel the doctors get could help the mafia a lot more than it helps us.

On the other other hand, if he's a backup doc, this information is far less important, and since he was fairly certain to be lynched by that point anyway, as far as I can think of, the only role that could really use the information would be one who can use dead people's time fuel. I don't see how the information could therefore help the mafia more than the town, although feel free to correct me.

Just to let you know, I will not be availible between Sunday and Thursday due to another DofE trip (grrr). I may also not be able to post much between now and Sunday, as I'm putting on a production of As You Like It, and tomorrow is both the openning night, and the first time the entire cast will be performing together

[Gaspode]

As for SO's post (June 28, 8:51 a.m., don't know the exact number):

In general, he just seemed to dwell on somewhat trivial matters after the first half of the post, and some of the logic that he used was faulty. But the most glaring thing that jumped out at me when I read the post was this:

So I'm prepared to be more cautious with my vote if I survive this day and night,...

Classic mafia tactic--beat the town over the head with the idea that you're pro-town and constantly in danger. It's also a good way to distract a doc into thinking you're a power role. I admit, it's not as great a point as I originally made it out to be, but on top of a general scummy feeling to his posts and logic, as well as other people's points, made it feel more profound at the time.

Also, it seems like everything following this quote was convoluted and confusing, sometimes clouding possibly controversial ideas in an attempt to stay under the radar.

Now that I look back, it's not enough for a vote, but it's plenty to warrant a closer look at SO's posting.

[SpeedyKQ]

Deadline in about 15 hours, kids. As the vote leader I think SinisterOverlord should claim, and we should start lining up some votes. A 2 to 0 final vote count would be pretty shaky.

We should also start begging mathcam for an extension.

[mathcam]

Well, I can't say that posting has been outstanding, so we'll call it

48 hours

from this post, possibly/probably final. I'll prod people now.

Cam

[Someone]

Mathcam told me to post, so I'll do so right now.

Since we only have 48 hours, I feel reasonably comfortable in a

vote:SO

.

And BTW, I'm not so sure about yesterday's lynch, but it was obviously necessary.

[N_lich]

Deadline in about 15 hours, kids. As the vote leader I think SinisterOverlord should claim, and we should start lining up some votes. A 2 to 0 final vote count would be pretty shaky.

We should also start begging mathcam for an extension.

No complaints here.

Also, I'd like to hear more from/people's thoughts on Someone. I know this day has been very quiet, but Someone was:

1. fairly prolific day 1 but has lurked today, especially for a person who:

Now, for me, that's no problem since I log in almost every day.

2. Did draw quite a bit of heat Day 1 (albeit this is arguably mitigated by Stoofer and SO contributing in this respect).
3. Has already "semi-claimed". Is it worth hearing the rest?

[Someone]

I admit to lurking today, and I promise to post regularly from now on.

And it's still true, I do log on almost every day, but I don't always take the time to read/analyse the thread, just check in and make sure there are no pressing issues.

I do have more suspicions, but from the way you guys went after me for talking about my gut feelings in day 1, I won't express all of them right now.

What I will ask, is directed at fishbulb: Do you think that changeling bob's defense of a player 4 times was warranted? Or do you think it was mostly crap logic?

[Fishbulb]

Sorry, folks. Not a good week for me.

What I will ask, is directed at fishbulb: Do you think that changeling bob's defense of a player 4 times was warranted? Or do you think it was mostly crap logic?

Good question. I think I could see his reasoning for defending him somewhat, otherwise it would've been more obvious at the time. My issue is that he hasn't stuck up for anyone else, so that means that either they have an in-game connection (either scum or mason), or some out-of-game connection (played a lot of games together, rl friends, online friends, etc.).

For some reason, Mr Stoofer was the only person he didn't consider scummy, yet he gave no reason why.

[SinisterOverlord]

Hm.

With regards to Gaspode's thougts on me, I see the point you're making, just don't feel it's terribly valid. 'If I survive this day' - I was sticking out and under a fair amount of suspicion, so I might've been lynched. 'and night' - saying 'I might be nightkilled' is not a big 'HEY LOOK AT ME I'M TOWN', IMO. What if someone who had me as their primary suspect was a vigilante? Town or no, I'm dead. What about SK's, or an alternate mafia? It'd only be saying 'HEY, I'M TOWN' if we knew there to be only one killing group.

Well, given the closeness of the deadline, I will claim. I'm a saboteur (spelling?). I can nullify the time-travelling portion of one target's role, causing that action to happen on that night instead of another.

So far, both nights I've targeted mole. I found it interesting the first night that I targeted him, and there was a kill that night, so I tried again the following night - but there was a timetravelled kill, and no non-timetravelled kill last night. So mole is probably not antitown - but he may be, if he's one of a scum group and another sent the kill in last night.

I'm undecided as to what to do with my vote for now... I'll hold off a little longer.

[Changling bob]

For some reason, Mr Stoofer was the only person he didn't consider scummy, yet he gave no reason why.

Mr Stoofer wasn't the only person I didn't find scummy. He was the only person I didn't find scummy

who was being layed into by what I percieved to be CrapLogic™

.

Given that I didn't have internet access for the last few days of day 1, I did not get a chance to really comment on Mr Stoofer's actions then, which were more suspicious to me than before I went. Having had no impact on his lynching (not having been able to comment until after the event really), I think it was justifiable, and I'm inclined to believe we did the right thing.

Well, given the closeness of the deadline, I will claim. I'm a saboteur (spelling?). I can nullify the time-travelling portion of one target's role, causing that action to happen on that night instead of another.

So far, both nights I've targeted mole. I found it interesting the first night that I targeted him, and there was a kill that night, so I tried again the following night - but there was a timetravelled kill, and no non-timetravelled kill last night. So mole is probably not antitown - but he may be, if he's one of a scum group and another sent the kill in last night.

Firstly, as your role is spelled (most probably correctly) in your role PM, it shouldn't be easy to misspell it, unless you're making it up.
Secondly, this may be confirmable. If mole does have a time travelling role, he shouldn't have lost any time fuel, as he ended up not time travelling. This of course could be wrong, depending on specifics. It could also be falsifiable

if

both are scum.
Thirdly, I'm slightly wary of the role. It could set up some paradoxical situations (eg. roleblocker targets you night one tonight, you target them tonight tonight, what happens). It also seems it could be very powerful if it is a time travelling role, although you didn't claim that it was (just speculating a little here).

What with the other comments pointed at you,

FoS:SO

. I'm not willing to put a vote on until you've defended yourself, and in case I don't get back on before the deadline and you end up confirmed or whatnot.

[Gaspode]

Hmm. That's a great role to claim; I could really see Cam using it in this game. It has not been used before (at least by that name), but it has an interesting effect that I think our mod might enjoy.

The thing is, there seem to be too many inconsistencies. For example, the spelling comment brought up by Changling Bob--there have been way too many spelling problems and similar issues in mafia games for you not to have checked your post for that.

I don't like the confirmation idea. There are too many variables, so all that would happen is useless exposure of information without a real confirmation.

Although Changling Bob seems worried about paradoxes, etc., I think almost anything could be resolved for this role, so I wouldn't say that's a major issue.

I need to check the thread for possible relationships between SO and mole, as well as anything else that might look different with this new info. For now, I'll do the same as Bob;

major FOS: SO

[N_lich]

[quote="Changling bob"]
Firstly, as your role is spelled (most probably correctly) in your role PM, it shouldn't be easy to misspell it, unless you're making it up.
Secondly, this may be confirmable. If mole does have a time travelling role, he shouldn't have lost any time fuel, as he ended up not time travelling. This of course could be wrong, depending on specifics. It could also be falsifiable

if

both are scum.
Thirdly, I'm slightly wary of the role. It could set up some paradoxical situations (eg. roleblocker targets you night one tonight, you target them tonight tonight, what happens). It also seems it could be very powerful if it is a time travelling role, although you didn't claim that it was (just speculating a little here).
[quote]

1. Good point
2. Perhaps, but the time fuel might be lost anyway. There is still a possibility of confirmation
3. Don't see how it can causes a paradox unless it can time travel itself. Even if it does, I really can't see how it is very powerful in a game with regenerating docs.

The role is a fairly believable one, even if it does fall into the category I would tend to view with the most suspiscion (weakish non-generic townie role). This is because of scum avoiding claiming generic for deathscene reasons and an extra v.strong role could stick-out as the set-up became more known.

[SinisterOverlord]

Okay. With regards to the spelling, I was just doing it from memory. Now I have checked it now, and I was correct, but I just didn't check with my PM. Gaspode, you say [/quote="Gaspode"]there have been way too many spelling problems and similar issues in mafia games for you not to have checked your post for that. [/quote]
I can't say I've ever seen that happen that I can recall, to be honest. And besides, if I were faking the claim, wouldn't it be just as easy to run a spellchecker as to check my pm? I don't belive this could be reasonably interpreted to mean anything, other than that I can be a tad lazy at times.

My role doesn't time travel at all. I target someone every night, their action reverts to the same night.

And with regards to the time fuel, I don't know. My role states that I replace their time fuel with normal fuel... so maybe I put the time fuel they were going to use with their existing stocks of fuel, and so they don't lose any fuel, or maybe I don't give it back (IMO, more likely) and they lose that fuel anyway.

[Changling bob]

Regarding the misspelling, if you are unsure and need to say '(spelling?)', surely a couple of seconds to check your PM or run it through a spell checker isn't too much bother. If you hadn't bothered to question the spelling, I wouldn't be any the wiser that you may be unsure about it, and none of this questioning would be happening.

Regarding the confirmation idea, depending on how the role was implemented, it

could

be confirmable. Obviously now, with SO saying the time fuel is most probably lost, it probably isn't. I just thought that if it could be confirmable, then that would be to our advantage as we'd have an alive, confirmed townie, given that they aren't both scum.

Regarding the paradox, I was mainly thinking out loud. SO has said his role doesn't time travel, so that makes the role more balanced than if it did.

The more I think about it, the less inclined I am to believe him, partly gut feeling about SO given the thread, and partly the convenience of a claim that isn't a major townie role, but explains a non-townie death scene if scum.

This is probably going to be my last post before Thursday evening. I don't not believe SO enough to be happy leaving a vote on him while I'm not around, so no vote from me still.

[Someone]

I don't really like the role.

The vote stays because

A) It's a good claim for scum
B) He has looked suspicious for a while
C) It's a fairly safe lynch for the town

As mentioned in other posts, mafia would want to claim a generic townee role that wasn't too important. This claim fits that description to the letter. It is somewhat confirmable. I'll ask mole to post at this point.

SO has looked suspicious, and there is no reason to disregard our suspicions just because he has claimed. Now, granted, he may be confirmed, at which point we will retract our votes willingly. But, for right now the vote stands.

We are not lynching a townee, nor an important role (such as a time doc). This is important because our important roles are extra important in this game. I think it's extremely lucky that we have not revealed more important roles than we have already in this game.

[mathcam]

Official End-Of-Day Vote Count:

SinisterOverlord (3, Nox, SpeedyKQ, Someone)

Not Voting: mole, Changling bob, Gaspode, N_lich, Fishbulb, SinisterOverlord


And with that, Night 3 begins.

SinisterOverlord (non-townie)

, has been lynched.

Let's try to get all the night choices in by Friday.

Cam

[mathcam]

Sorry for the lack of flavor text and the long night, but internet access is not being friendly.

You awake to find that

SpeedyKQ (non-townie)

,

N_lich (townie)

, and

mole (townie)

have been killed night 3. There are no other changes to the timeline.

And with that, Day 3 begins. Deadline in 10 days.

[Someone]

Ok, I'll claim now. I'm the

time sage

. Once per game, I have the ability to ask a yes or no question to the mod.

I asked him, if as of night three, are at least one of these three people alive and scum:

nox, gaspode and SO.

The answer was no. Therefore, these three people are pro-town.

[Gaspode]

Sorry, but unforseen difficulties are going to prevent me from posting for about a week. I'll definitely be back by August 1, although hopefully I'll be able to get online before then.

[Nox]

Arg. I'm sort of beginning to inch against Changling bob, for previously mentionned accusations... Ill post later on.