Mini 897 - OpenSource Mafia - Game over!!

[Iecerint]

Also reinforced with Iec voting SSK for claiming Vaya as scum.

I voted SSK for claiming I had a "meta" of protecting my scumbuddies. I have never been scum, so there was no basis for SSK's claim. It looked to me like he was just supplying the easy answer to UK's yes/no question. I think it's possible that he did misremember my alignment in ILY mafia, though, for reasons I've already mentioned.

[SocioPath]

Also reinforced with Iec voting SSK for claiming Vaya as scum.

I voted SSK for claiming I had a "meta" of protecting my scumbuddies. I have never been scum, so there was no basis for SSK's claim. It looked to me like he was just supplying the easy answer to UK's yes/no question. I think it's possible that he did misremember my alignment in ILY mafia, though, for reasons I've already mentioned.

So you are claiming that your vote was based on you thinking SSK was scummy for misremembering you as scum in a past game?

I started the bandwagon on JL, so I don't think I'm guilty of bandwagon-following. And I thought I was 2nd on SP. <_<

You didn't do it then, so its fine when you do it later?

It's true that I was following there, though.

You claim you're not guilty of bandwagon-following...and yet two sentences later you state that you were bandwagon-following.

You even stated in your vote of me that:

I can get behind an SPwagon.

My intent was to provide the necessary pressure on SP to make him active.

I haven't been active?

[Glork]

Oh, by the way, mafia, I'd advise not killing SSK tonight unless you'd like to confirm Vaya's alignment for us.

Highly suspect.

In fact...thinking about things further, there are two ways to do this. We lynch Vaya today, and something interesting happens tonight, which leads to a very clear day tomorrow, or we lynch neither Vaya nor SSK, something interesting happens tonight, and we still have a clear day tomorrow.

Also highly suspect.


Given the mod-acknowledged vagueness of player reveals and the "bastard-modded" nature of the game, I'd like you to take a couple of minutes to re-think your context and decide how much faith you actually have in getting a "very clear" picture of tomorrow based on what happens overnight.

Even if this were a NORMAL game, if a player came out D1 and seriously said they had role-based information to make them 99% certain, you'd want that information out as soon as possible. If SSK is telling the truth and his information can be trusted, we'd be guaranteed a result. If SSK thinks he's telling the truth but his information cannot be trusted, we can gain valuable information about the bastardly nature of the game. If SSK is bullshitting us, we're passing up a golden opportunity to put a scumbag under the microscope on D1.



I'm going to side with Vaya here (SOUND THE MUTUAL BUDDYING ALARMS) and point out what's wrong with SSK's behavior.
1) SSK is claiming to be 99% certain of another player's alignment on D1 of a bastard game. This is... extremely curious to say the least, and I'm not willing to buy into it at all without knowing what can make him so certain of that information in this particular game. Any number of things could go wrong with this. Millers. Death Millers. Cop sanity issues. Changing alignments. Redirections. Scum Protections/Abilities. "Insane" Doctors.

2) SSK claims to have important information but won't reveal it because he doesn't want to be made a target by the scums. I can't even begin to explain how terrible play this is. If the day were to end right here and now, with pseudo-information claimed, that puts SSK at the

MOST

risk of getting nightkilled (if indeed he is legit). Why? Because A) potential Docs/Jailkeepers/Etc. don't know whether they should be protecting him; and B) The Scums can send important information (whether it is accurate or not) to the grave with SSK.
--I don't want anybody to answer this in-game, but I have two rhetorical question for each of you to ponder, given what SSK has said and given the nature of the game: If you were a Doctor, would you be inclined to protect him tonight? If you were Scum, and knew/believed/assumed SSK was not part of your group, would you be inclined to kill SSK tonight?



I'm not saying that I think SSK is scum. Nor am I saying that I think Vaya is town. Fact is, I don't know what either one is (or even what they *might* be), and I'm concerned that some players are being very headstrong, assuming that a pile of partial "information" will give them clarity in what is very clearly a complex game.

MafiaSSK: if Vaya is scum, you are a very, very obvious target tonight already. With this in mind, a fullclaim seems natural. If you aren't prepared to fullclaim, and we lynch Vaya, and Vaya is town, tomorrow I will be voting for your lynch unless you both have a convincing reason to declare Vaya 99% scum (a huge certainty, particularly in a bastard game) AND a convincing reason why a fullclaim today was bad - something more than "to avoid NK".

This is a good stance, but I disagree with it.

Here's what I'd like, if at all possible

Vaya and SSK do NOT get lynched today.
SSK, do NOT fullclaim today.
Any protective role that exists, please protect SSK from kills.
I think D2 will be quite fruitful.

Before it's asked, yes, I have official reasons to believe this is the best course of action.

Again, I'll ask (rephrased): How confident are you that the words you read in the Moderator's posts will be truthful? It looks like you've put a fair amount of thought into this, but I don't trust you, I don't trust your information, and I don't trust SSK's information. It's hard for me to listen when you say "Trust me. Let's do this," because I'm probably less-informed than just about everybody else in this game, and I have a natural aversion to making assumptions in bastard games.


And finally, sorry for the wall of text. My mind is running at about a billion miles per hour, and I've considered a lot of things (including requesting that everybody massclaim -- but I've decided that's not the best course of action for *today*). I also have additional thoughts on why I want fullclaims instead of partial claims, but I will hold off on boring you folks unless you ask me to elaborate. I thinK I've rambled enough for now.

[Glork]

Also reinforced with Iec voting SSK for claiming Vaya as scum.

I voted SSK for claiming I had a "meta" of protecting my scumbuddies. I have never been scum, so there was no basis for SSK's claim. It looked to me like he was just supplying the easy answer to UK's yes/no question. I think it's possible that he did misremember my alignment in ILY mafia, though, for reasons I've already mentioned.

So you are claiming that your vote was based on you thinking SSK was scummy for misremembering you as scum in a past game?

No. He was voting based on thinking that SSK was scummy for

LYING

about Iece being scum in a past game.

Once Iece realized "oh, he might have honestly misremembered," he backed off.

[Iecerint]

SSK didn't clarify that he had misremembered me as scum in ILY until after I voted him. I was thinking that SSK was just blithely saying "HE DOES THIS AS SCUM" without any evidence. I'm still slightly unsure about it, which is why I asked him who he misremembered I was scumbuddy-protecting.

I took UK's bandwagon-following criticism to mean "Iec has a history of bandwagon-following." In actuality, I have bandwagon-followed once, and for good reasons IMO. That's the point I was trying to make.

You haven't been inactive per se, but you'd kinda fallen on the backburner during the whole Vaya-SSK thing IIRC. You were also the scummiest player who was both non-V/LA and not Vaya or SSK IMO.

[SocioPath]

SSK didn't clarify that he had misremembered me as scum in ILY until after I voted him. I was thinking that SSK was just blithely saying "HE DOES THIS AS SCUM" without any evidence. I'm still slightly unsure about it, which is why I asked him who he misremembered I was scumbuddy-protecting.

Fair enough.

You haven't been inactive per se, but you'd kinda fallen on the backburner during the whole Vaya-SSK thing IIRC.

Everyone runs on a different schedule.

[Iecerint]

If I were scum, I would kill UK. If I were doctor, I would save UK.

If I were scum with UK, I would kill SSK.
If I were scum with UK and SSK, I would kill. Uhh. Someone innocuous. Pome?
If I were scum with UK and Vaya, I would kill Glock.

Wild card is SB.

[SocioPath]

I don't want anybody to answer this in-game, but I have two rhetorical question

[UncertainKitten]

1) SSK is claiming to be 99% certain of another player's alignment on D1 of a bastard game. This is... extremely curious to say the least, and I'm not willing to buy into it at all without knowing what can make him so certain of that information in this particular game. Any number of things could go wrong with this. Millers. Death Millers. Cop sanity issues. Changing alignments. Redirections. Scum Protections/Abilities. "Insane" Doctors.

If Vaya is a miller, assumably he'd have claimed it. Otherwise I'd be irritated. But obviously, the things I think can go wrong with this are things I'm taking into consideration, hence why I want to wait. I can alleviate at least some of them.

--

I don't want anybody to answer this in-game,

but I have two rhetorical question for each of you to ponder, given what SSK has said and given the nature of the game: If you were a Doctor, would you be inclined to protect him tonight? If you were Scum, and knew/believed/assumed SSK was not part of your group, would you be inclined to kill SSK tonight?

If I were scum, I would kill UK. If I were doctor, I would save UK.

If I were scum with UK, I would kill SSK.
If I were scum with UK and SSK, I would kill. Uhh. Someone innocuous. Pome?
If I were scum with UK and Vaya, I would kill Glock.

Wild card is SB.

Thank you, Iec for reinforcing your scumminess and giving yourself a WIFOM out

/me rolls her eyes.

How confident are you that the words you read in the Moderator's posts will be truthful? It looks like you've put a fair amount of thought into this, but I don't trust you, I don't trust your information, and I don't trust SSK's information. It's hard for me to listen when you say "Trust me. Let's do this," because I'm probably less-informed than just about everybody else in this game, and I have a natural aversion to making assumptions in bastard games.

It's not good to assume, hence why I switched to advocate waiting. I am REASONABLY sure that my ability is not being TOO bastardized, but as I said, I can't confirm THAT until D3, unless we REALLY want to leave the Vaya/SSK issue hanging until D3.

And finally, sorry for the wall of text. My mind is running at about a billion miles per hour, and I've considered a lot of things (including requesting that everybody massclaim -- but I've decided that's not the best course of action for *today*). I also have additional thoughts on why I want fullclaims instead of partial claims, but I will hold off on boring you folks unless you ask me to elaborate. I thinK I've rambled enough for now.

I think I understand. I'm unsure if I agree at this juncture, but in general would agree.

[Vala Mal Doran]

Blatant fence-sit.

Thanks, captain obvious... >_>

I'm not sure how I feel about UK's plan re. Vaya and SSK. Taken at face value it seems like a great idea, but if UK is scum with Vaya and knows Vaya has some super awesome power role, it could be a bad idea to keep Vaya alive.

On the other hand, there's the possibility that SB could flip Vaya to town if she really is scum, which alone would be enough to justify risking keeping her alive.

Why should a townie care what they look like?

Just to play devil's advocate here, a townie with an important power role (doctor, cop) should probably care what they look like. If a PR townie looks scummy enough, a truthful claim won't save them.

@Iec: How many mafia games have you played? This is at least marginally relevant.

I started the bandwagon on JL

Actually, I think I did. Unless you're not counting my vote because it was random...?

[MafiaSSK]

Out of curiosity, who did you remember me protecting in ILY, SSK? O_o

Elvis.

[MafiaSSK]

Out of curiosity, who did you remember me protecting in ILY, SSK? O_o

Elvis.

Man, my memory of that game was shotty. Neither of you were scum.

[AlmasterGM]

Public Service Announcement:

In this game, it is a terrible idea to assume that someone is not a miller simply because they have not claimed miller. Claiming miller on another day is not a scum tell. If you are an investigative role and you got a guilty, it is highly likely that your result is wrong.

That is all.

[Snow_Bunny]

Regarding the Vaya vs SSK issue, I'll go with UK. Let's leave them for tomorrow. However, I'm suspicious of those who asked a full claim at this point of the game. In my opinion, it would be stupid for a scum to claim that D1, when they are basically exchanging one townie for one scum.

I'm not getting the votes on SP, but well, I got kind of lost after the whole discussion of Vaya/SSK.

For now,

Vote: Iecerint

[Glork]

Public Service Announcement:

In this game, it is a terrible idea to assume that someone is not a miller simply because they have not claimed miller. Claiming miller on another day is not a scum tell. If you are an investigative role and you got a guilty, it is highly likely that your result is wrong.

That is all.

:goodposting:


For the record, my vote remains on Josh mostly because I have absolutely zero idea who I think is most likely to be scum. I think I know of a few people who are probably not scum, but I am disinclined to share those thoughts right now. In the next 72 hours (I will be V/LA from Dec 23-27, and again around New Year's), I plan on doing a full re-read of the game. Expect another wall, and a real vote then.

[UncertainKitten]

In this game, it is a terrible idea to assume that someone is not a miller simply because they have not claimed miller. Claiming miller on another day is not a scum tell. If you are an investigative role and you got a guilty, it is highly likely that your result is wrong.

That is all.

That's fair. As I said, I plan to check a few things before we go too far with 1v1 SSK and Vaya.

[Pomegranate]

Blatant fence-sit.

Thanks, captain obvious... >_>

I'm not sure how I feel about UK's plan re. Vaya and SSK. Taken at face value it seems like a great idea, but if UK is scum with Vaya and knows Vaya has some super awesome power role, it could be a bad idea to keep Vaya alive.

From what we know, it seems like the best plan. Do you think we should lynch one of them today.

On the other hand, there's the possibility that SB could flip Vaya to town if she really is scum, which alone would be enough to justify risking keeping her alive.

The problem is that we don't know whether Vaya is scum or not. It could be a lot worse for us if Vaya was switched from town to scum.

I'm not saying this specifically about Vaya. What if SB switched a townie to scum? We have to be careful. SB's role is not entirely clear.[/quote]

[UncertainKitten]

The problem is that we don't know whether Vaya is scum or not. It could be a lot worse for us if Vaya was switched from town to scum.

I'm not saying this specifically about Vaya. What if SB switched a townie to scum? We have to be careful. SB's role is not entirely clear

Ah right, we do need this clarification and it's not something I considered. Silly me :S

[Glork]

One thought that had just occurred to me is that if SB's role does exist and she is protown, we may be dealing with a cult

instead

of a town. I know some people were all "so you're claiming to be a Cult Leader" when she first claimed, but her ability seems like a very natural foil to a relatively standard cult.


Just some food for thought.

[UncertainKitten]

One thought that had just occurred to me is that if SB's role does exist and she is protown, we may be dealing with a cult instead of a town. I know some people were all "so you're claiming to be a Cult Leader" when she first claimed, but her ability seems like a very natural foil to a relatively standard cult.

That's...not entirely impossible. Especially given the theme. There could be a Windows cult versus the free Linux users, and SB being someone who can distribute Linux to brainwashed windows users. I'm guessing that the leaders of each cult can't be changed though :S.

[Iecerint]

I misread Glock's post. I thought he was trying to get a read on other players. Sorry. <_<

Finished games on the site, are --

Mongol Mafia (Newbie)
Twilight mafia
Lazy Neighborhood mafia
Rabbit Doubt mafia
Grimm's Pokemon Madness mafia
Tajo's ILY mafia
Moviestar Madness mafia
Newbie 858

I'm also currently playing in 4 other ongoing games.

My view of UK's plan hasn't really changed since the previous page. Because of the weirdness of SSK's gambit (e.g. "Why would scum set-up a 1/1?"), I initially wanted to lynch Vaya. When UK breadcrumbed official reasons both could be town, I figured following him could work out; we could lynch him later if it turned out that he was scum with Vaya. However, being reminded of the partial reveal made me somewhat more wary. Proving that UK is scum with Vaya would take a long time, as some kind of Priest analogue who determines alignments of dead players is probably necessary. So I'm leaning back toward possibly preferring Vaya again.

On the other hand, SSK's misremembered meta rubs me the wrong way. I do have a little bit of a crush on elvis, so I was probably pretty friendly with her in ILY. I'll go back and see whether his claim is feasible.

[Pomegranate]

I remember Twilight Mafia... that was my first game....

[Iecerint]

OK, so, here's the deal with ILY and whether SSK is full of shit --

Supporting evidence

SSK attacks elvis D1
I supported elvis and supported attacks on SSK D1

Troubling evidence

elvis died N1. SSK was mislynched D2.
elvis was lovers with SSK (in this game, essentially non-confirmed masons)

So, on the one hand, it's true that perceiving an elvis-Iec link would be reasonable, and given that we were kinda opposed to him I could see him thinking we were scum. But you'd think he'd remember his lover's alignment, especially since she died before he did. But this is the guy who forgot he was a Hider in Lazy Neighborhood. <_<

[Iecerint]

Actually, I think I [started the JL wagon]. Unless you're not counting my vote because it was random...?

To be honest, I forgot about your vote. But I'll still take credit for it since I was the first serious vote.

[Iecerint]

Why should a townie care what they look like?

Just to play devil's advocate here, a townie with an important power role (doctor, cop) should probably care what they look like. If a PR townie looks scummy enough, a truthful claim won't save them.

For me, it's null to that. I've always played as town, and I've always tried to be extremely cognizant of how I'll be perceived even when I'm VT. Very sorry if this is anathema to everyone. I think I actually made the same speech in one of my finished games, if it's any consolation. I thought it was Twilight, but I can't find it. <_<