[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Adel]

just out of curiosity, what reason would a mentor have in revealing himself to his protege?

Just mind games in this setup, I think, especially in a 3 or 4 person endgame. For closed setups there are a number of other mechanics that could build on it.

[Elephant Hell]

Dictator Mafia

2 Rebels
6 Citizens
3 Bodyguards
1 Dictator

Daystart. Rebels = Mafiosi, and when the last one dies they may make a vengeance kill (during the day). Citizens = Townies. Bodyguards = 1-shot Doctors, who are also aware of each other's identities and the Dictator's identity. Dictator = Survivor, aware of his Bodyguard's identities.

If the Dictator dies, the remaining Bodyguards become Mafiosi with full night-talking and a nightkill, and the remaining Rebels (if there are any) become Masons with no nightkill or vengeance kill.

In game 1 (Dictator alive), roles have the following win cons:
Rebels: cannot win yet
Citizens: win if Rebels are dead and Dictator is alive
Bodyguards: win if Rebels are dead and Dictator is alive
Dictator: wins if Rebels are dead and he is alive

In game 2 (Dictator dead), roles have the following win cons:
Rebels: win if Bodyguards are dead and at least one non-Bodyguard is alive
Citizens: win if Bodyguards are dead and at least one non-Bodyguard is alive
Bodyguards: win if all non-Bodyguards are dead and at least one Bodyguard is alive

1) Is this normal enough? I'm not sure, edging towards it not being normal.
2) Is the alignment change alright? It doesn't fall prey to a few of the major problems of, for example, Cults (one difference being that the change is fully expected and another being that the change is universal, so the same tells apply before and after). However, it's still an alignment change so...
3) Does the setup marginalise the townies?

[Netopalis]

I think it's far too swingy, and alignment changes are generally frowned upon in normal games. I also think that the townies are pretty much useless, yeah...

[dramonic]

day1:

Dictator: Bodyguard are A, B and C.

Vote:self

there, ruined

[nhammen]

You really really need to simulate that setup to see.

Because the alignment change isn't really an alignment change, I think the setup is fine. But it might be hella swingy. And game 1 isn't what you think. Citizens always have, You win if A) The Rebels are dead and the Dictator is alive or B) The Dictator and all Bodyguards are dead, and one non Bodyguard remains.

If all Bodyguards die, and all Rebels are alive, it is in the towns best interest to kill the Dictator.

Also, it is interesting to note that there are situations in which the Bodyguards would want to kill the Dictator.

[nhammen]

day1:

Dictator: Bodyguard are A, B and C.

Vote:self

there, ruined

Makes no sense. Why would the Dictator do this? He is a survivor.

[Elephant Hell]

If all Bodyguards die, and all Rebels are alive, it is in the towns best interest to kill the Dictator.

It is effectively an instant win for the Rebels and Citizens, yes. In this situation the Rebels can claim and can't be countered, so no matter how long it takes they'll outnumber the Dictator in the end. To prevent this from happening there's a moderately large number of Bodyguards (which also means that they can afford to gambit and have two claim Rebel)

Also, it is interesting to note that there are situations in which the Bodyguards would want to kill the Dictator.

I've discussed this for a little while with someone else, and we came to the general conclusion that it's not in the Bodyguards' favour to betray the Dictator at any point other than potential endgames. If they out him at any time in a non-endgame scenario the Rebels can kill him at their leisure, so the Citizens will also turn, but the Rebels also have no incentive to kill the Dictator immediately. The situation becomes 2 Vig/Masons and 6 Townies vs 3 1-shot Doc non-communicating, non-killing Mafiosi and 1 Survivor. That and the Survivor and 'Mafia' oppose one another.

When you get down to endgame scenarios, things change, but not too much. For example:
1 Rebel left
1 Citizen
3 Bodyguards
1 Dictator

If the Bodyguards try to lynch the Dictator then they'll come up against resistance in the form of the Citizen, the Rebel and the Dictator, all of whom know the situation and will lose if the Dictator is lynched. The Bodyguards won't be able to easily secure a lynch unless they obscure the Dictator's identity. I think in the above scenario it would be better for the four anti-town players to just try lynching one of the remaining two, trying to avoid distinguishing between the Dictator and themselves, and then lynch the other on the following day. In summary, any situation where the Bodyguards want to kill the Dictator is probably a good situation for them to win without killing the Dictator.

I'm just thinking about endgame scenarios though; you may have been considering something different.

In response to both, I think that there

should

be a few instances where betraying the Dictator is good for either the Citizens or the Bodyguards.

...Generally, though, this seems like a clusterfuck of 'playing to win with current win con' and 'playing to win for future win con' playing.

[nhammen]

I really like this idea though. The change in win conditions isnt really a change. There is no randomness to it. It is all predictable.

I was actually thinking of:

2 Rebels
1 Citizen
3 Bodyguards
1 Dictator

If anyone votes for the Dictator, the Bodyguards quicklynch the Dictator for the win. If the Citizen is lynched, the game is in LYLO (Edit: NM... Bodyguards still win). Since they don't know who the Citizen is, it is better for them to lynch the Dictator.

Even in your situation, the Rebel does NOT want the Dictator dead at that point. In fact, in your situation, the Rebel cannot win. At all. But the game isn't over because other winners haven't been decided... Bad.

Edit: Oh, sorry, forgot to take out the part about not wanting the dictator dead. I realized later that this meant the Rebels already lost.

Final Edit: You know what... I didn't think my scenario through entirely.

[nhammen]

1 of each left.
Lynch Dictator and Bodyguard wins. If Dictator or Bodyguard are not lynched, then 50% Rebel lynched (all others win), 50% Citizen lynched (Rebels win 25% and Bodyguard wins 25%).

But Dictator would claim before being lynched, as in this case, only Bodyguard wants him dead. Rebel wants to save him for after Bodyguard. Hmmm... if Bodyguard dies, Rebel wins. Everyone cannot die and win. If Dictator claim is believable, everyone would claim it. Thus, nobody would believe this claim.

[farside22]

ABR you don't think your game is a bit one sided with the mafia having no power roles to speak of?

[Albert B. Rampage]

ABR you don't think your game is a bit one sided with the mafia having no power roles to speak of?

Both sides have a more than reasonable chance of winning, although town is slightly favored as I said.

Considering that the town mislynches, the vig misses, the mafia kills and the hider dies, the town is at LYLO day 2.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Also, I wish to re-name it "Crackville".

[farside22]

ABR you don't think your game is a bit one sided with the mafia having no power roles to speak of?

Both sides have a more than reasonable chance of winning, although town is slightly favored as I said.

Considering that the town mislynches, the vig misses, the mafia kills and the hider dies, the town is at LYLO day 2.

I think the mafia should get a RB for this game.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think you should see how it plays out.

Btw, this is a list of roles I hate: Mafia RB, Cop, Cult

[Sanjay]

Mafia RB seems like the odd man out (the other two minimize the value of scum hunting). What don't you like about mafia roleblockers?

[Albert B. Rampage]

It doesn't make the game more fun to play. In fact, it makes the game much less fun to play. The PRs who get blocked are unhappy, the mafia doesn't know that they successfully RB'd half the time. No RB forces the mafia to make good decisions, not NK one claimed PR and block the other.

I know that games without mafia RBs are more fun.

[farside22]

It doesn't make the game more fun to play. In fact, it makes the game much less fun to play. The PRs who get blocked are unhappy, the mafia doesn't know that they successfully RB'd half the time. No RB forces the mafia to make good decisions, not NK one claimed PR and block the other.

I know that games without mafia RBs are more fun.

I still feel the mafia is up shit creak without something to counter the town's PR.

[Pomegranate]

^^^ I agree.

[Sanjay]

Give them a busdriver. Beep beep.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I rather play a fun setup than a frustrating setup, but that's just me.

[Incognito]

Dominant town strategy for Crackville is to use hypo-hide (having each player claim a person to hide behind during the Night before Day 1 ends), which could make things really really difficult for the scum especially with the Hider Tracker in the mix.

Considering that the town mislynches, the vig misses, the mafia kills and the hider dies, the town is at LYLO day 2.

This doesn't sound too fun either.

[Pomegranate]

Considering that the town mislynches, the vig misses, the mafia kills and the hider dies, the town is at LYLO day 2.

This doesn't sound too fun either.

It doesn't sound too likely either.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Oh, that's smart. I just thought of a perfect scum ability: they can turn off the auto-hider kill if the hider hides with them.

This way, their optimal play is to leave it ON, but if the town tries hypo claim or something like that the town gets burned.

[zoraster]

I'm not getting much bite from the theme test market, so I thought I'd float it here. This isn't for the open queue (it'll be a large theme), but since it is a completely open game (ideally there should be absolutely no hidden or closed elements), I thought discussion here would be good.

Parallel Universe Mafia

30 players overall. 15 per game. 2 games going simultaneously.

Game 1:
1-shot Mafia A Teleporter
Mafia A Goon
Mafia A Goon

Town 1 Teleporter
Vanilla x 11

Game 2:
1-shot Mafia B Teleporter
Mafia B Goon
Mafia B Goon

Town 2 Teleporter
Vanilla x 11

Town Teleporter role: Each night may either teleport a player a player away from the game or pull a player from the other game into their own. In the first three nights, they must teleport twice and pull once in any order. In the next three days they must teleport twice and pull once, etc. They may not teleport themselves.

A teleported or pulled player may not be teleported or pulled again the next night.

When a town teleporter is killed, lynched, pulled or teleported, they lose their power and become a vanilla townie and a remaining townie (picked at random) is made the new teleporter (perma backups, in other words... the town will always have this role around). The new teleporter is held to the same restrictions as the old (e.g. if it's n3 and the previous teleporter pulled once and teleported once, the new teleporter MUST teleport)

Mafia Teleporter role: They may teleport a player away at night OR day, but they may only do this once during the game. They may not teleport themselves.

Each mafia may shoot once per night. They may shoot with any player that is still alive, regardless of which game they are in.

Win conditions:
Any town member in the FIRST game that wins, automatically wins and cannot be pulled or teleported into the other game. A game is won by town when all mafia forces are eliminated (by lynch or teleport) in that game.
Town members in the second game win only when they eliminate all remaining mafia.
For town: the game you die in is the game you win or lose in.
Mafia A and B win whenever they win a game in EITHER game. They can go for the amazing DOUBLE WIN if their faction somehow manages to win both games. They win when there are no longer any other forces in the game other than their Mafia team and not before (even when normally they would be autowin... they could be pulled/teleported). Mafia teams are opposed to each other, and a Mafia A player always wins whether they are in that game or another.

Thoughts about balance (is 15 a side the right number to make it?)? Do you think this would be fun to play? I wanted to keep the game as vanilla as possible to accentuate the mechanic involved, but it's possible I could be convinced to add a power role or two if it makes sense.

I like the way the town gets to play off the other game. In some ways the towns are playing for a common purpose (if one town lynches a mafia member, that mafia member can't cause any harm in their game later on), in other ways they're opposed (the teleporter might try to teleport scummy people to the other game or pull good scum hunters). Also, it creates a cohesiveness between two separate games that I think gives an interesting flavor to the game. I love that each mafia side could get super greedy and go for a DOUBLE win. It'd be a huge coup for any scum team, and probably worthy of a scummy nomination just for accomplishing it.

Some questions about order of actions:
Within the same game is (1) Mafia Kill (2) Town Teleporter (3) Mafia Teleporter make sense?

Between games, how do we resolve tension? Should the town that goes into night first have its teleporter/mafia kill's actions go first? Or should it be that whichever game ends night has its teleporter/mafia kill's actions go first? This could be problematic in a situation where a teleporter is attempting to pull a player but that player is also being shot at by the mafia.

Last question: I've made the mafia teleporter's 1-shot because I don't want people to get TOO frustrated with how much player swapping is going on. Does anyone think I should up this to a 2-shot power?

EDIT: Oh! Last and most important question: given that the town will always have a teleporter, are there any breaking strategies that you can think of? For example, would it be an effective strategy for the teleporter to always claim since this is likely to clear the person and the mafia can't do anything about it until the night?

[TheButtonmen]

After a game is won, what does a usage of the teleport power do in the remaining game? Is it a kill or nonfunctional?