890: Cults of Darkness and Shadow - Game over!


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Post Post #400 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:23 pm

Post by semioldguy »

Chaco wrote:That's the thing, it is a conflicting view. You are saying you have NO read on him, saying that he isn't scummy to you requires a read.
No, it doesn't. That's the way it is and the the way it always will be. By you seeing that I don't find someone scummy you are making the false assumption that I have a read on him him to be something else. Which is the wrong assumption.
Chaco wrote:I do not get why you deny this so. You ca n't just throw out a baseless "Oh he's not scummy to me." Well, you can. But I do not expect it from you, which is why I am pushing the fact so hard.
Why wouldn't you expect it from me?
Chaco wrote:Saying someone isn't scummy to you, means that you have a read. Simple enough. It may not be leaning to two sides heavily, but it is in fact a read.
Again, no, it doesn't mean that. How can someone be scummy to me if I don't have a read on them? If I don't find someone to be scummy because I have no read on them, how is saying I don't find them to be scummy a lie?
Chaco wrote:I rarely have no read, and when I do it is early on D1. Scum slips and tells change my read to scummy.
That just means we play differently. Just because you play with a certain ability or preference doesn't mean that I play with those same abilities or preferences.
Chaco wrote:What you are saying makes no sense.
Just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it's wrong.

Also, you dodged my question. Do you ever find people to be scummy that you have no read on? A yes/no answer will suffice (until my followup question). I don't need to know how you prefer to play or how long it takes you to get reads on players... that isn't what I was asking for. Do you ever find people to be scummy that you have no read on? Yes or no.

Even if I were lying about having no read on dramonic, which I am not lying about, why would that be scummy? you can't just say that an action is scummy, you need to know what makes it scummy given the context you find it in.

I don't understand why so many people on this site just look at an action and automatically declare it as scummy with no thought about
why
it is scummy. Town do "scummy" things all the time. Town can be hypocritical, they lie, contradict themselves, vote for no reasons, vote for bad reasons, buddy to others, lurk, fence-sit, post contentless garbage and a myriad of other things people label as "scummy." Yet as soon many people see one of these "scum tells" they hop onto it immediately without so much as a thought as to why it might or might not be scummy. Players in general need to stop playing on autopilot and do a little more thinking. These things need context or analysis to be considered scummy.
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Post Post #401 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:15 pm

Post by Chaco »

semioldguy wrote:No, it doesn't. That's the way it is and the the way it always will be. By you seeing that I don't find someone scummy you are making the false assumption that I have a read on him him to be something else. Which is the wrong assumption.
Then how did you come about that basis?
semioldguy wrote:Why wouldn't you expect it from me?
Past play.
semioldguy wrote:Again, no, it doesn't mean that. How can someone be scummy to me if I don't have a read on them? If I don't find someone to be scummy because I have no read on them, how is saying I don't find them to be scummy a lie?
Again, how did you get the basis that he is not scummy?
semioldguy wrote:That just means we play differently. Just because you play with a certain ability or preference doesn't mean that I play with those same abilities or preferences.
No, but we should be able to come to a consensus between the two. Agreed?
semioldguy wrote:Just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it's wrong.

Also, you dodged my question. Do you ever find people to be scummy that you have no read on? A yes/no answer will suffice (until my followup question). I don't need to know how you prefer to play or how long it takes you to get reads on players... that isn't what I was asking for. Do you ever find people to be scummy that you have no read on? Yes or no.

Even if I were lying about having no read on dramonic, which I am not lying about, why would that be scummy? you can't just say that an action is scummy, you need to know what makes it scummy given the context you find it in.

I don't understand why so many people on this site just look at an action and automatically declare it as scummy with no thought about
why
it is scummy. Town do "scummy" things all the time. Town can be hypocritical, they lie, contradict themselves, vote for no reasons, vote for bad reasons, buddy to others, lurk, fence-sit, post contentless garbage and a myriad of other things people label as "scummy." Yet as soon many people see one of these "scum tells" they hop onto it immediately without so much as a thought as to why it might or might not be scummy. Players in general need to stop playing on autopilot and do a little more thinking. These things need context or analysis to be considered scummy.
No, I didn't dodge it. I answered it, and you even quoted it. And again I will say, I form an opinion. So I guess I'll say no because, once they do something scummy that attributes to a read. I really don't understand the necessity for a Yes/No answer here. Making something of nothing? I explained the way I did it, that's better than a yes or no answer. Only using Yes or No limits my reply to only something you want to hear.

Liars get lynched. Plus, I am trying to understand your "No read" + "He's not scummy to me" combination. They don't parallel. And as you said, I am trying to get to the context of it, but you're going into a turtle shell.

Town can do scummy things yes. So you're saying we can pass you off as town because you did something scummy? No, I'm trying to get to the bottom of something and you're shelling up on me with a wall of useless post whining because you're under scrutiny.

Where, or what, is your basis for saying "He's not scummy to me."?
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Post Post #402 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:59 pm

Post by semioldguy »

Here are the options:

(1) Someone is not scummy.
(2) Someone is scummy.

There are no other options. Someone either is or they are not. Period. When I eliminate option (2), option (1) is all that remains. Any decision made on a read or lack of read on any player will fit into one of those two options.
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Post Post #403 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:21 pm

Post by DeathSauce »

The entire conversation about "selective scumhunting" and "going after the weakened group" to be completely mind-boggling. How in the hell am I supposed to tell if a scummy player is in the cult of Darkness or cult of Shadow? Do we get them to admit it somehow?

That said,

Incant: startransmission
I'm still seeing a connection between start and SB, start's alignment would be enlightening.
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Post Post #404 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:51 pm

Post by tracker »

Incantation Count


Chaco - 2(semioldguy, dramonic)

startransmission -2(Magua, Deathsauce)
dramonic -1(startransmission)
Discord -1(SerialClergyman)
SerialClergyman 1(Faraday)
semioldguy -1(Chaco

Not Incanting - 2(DisCode, Snow_Bunny)

The Ritual will only take 8 incantations to complete 6:00pm Wednesday 19th of December (site time)


Replacing: Discord


9 to incantions are currently required to complete the ritual
Show
-Tracker

Need a replacement in [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12810&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=]Cults of Darkness and Shadow[/url] replacing Discord, please help

Willing to cross-replace
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Post Post #405 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:39 pm

Post by Chaco »

semioldguy wrote:Here are the options:

(1) Someone is not scummy.
(2) Someone is scummy.

There are no other options. Someone either is or they are not. Period. When I eliminate option (2), option (1) is all that remains. Any decision made on a read or lack of read on any player will fit into one of those two options.
And you said you had no read on him, so how did your not scummy come about?
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Post Post #406 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:42 pm

Post by startransmission »

Magua wrote:@startransmission: So why incant dramonic, and not semioldguy?
On day 1 I got a mild town read from Semi, whereas I got a neutral/scum read from DD. But since you mention it,

Unincant, Incant: Semioldguy


Deathsauce, if you want to know my alignment just ask. I'm town.
W--L--A as town
24--14--0
W--L--A as scum
14--4--0
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Post Post #407 (ISO) » Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:09 pm

Post by semioldguy »

Chaco wrote:
semioldguy wrote:Here are the options:

(1) Someone is not scummy.
(2) Someone is scummy.

There are no other options. Someone either is or they are not. Period. When I eliminate option (2), option (1) is all that remains. Any decision made on a read or lack of read on any player will fit into one of those two options.
And you said you had no read on him, so how did your not scummy come about?
Because someone can't be read as scummy if you have no read on them. Is this seriously that difficult to grasp?
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Post Post #408 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:06 am

Post by Chaco »

Is it that hard to grasp that deeming someone not scummy requires a read?
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Post Post #409 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:25 am

Post by Snow_Bunny »

SerialClergyman wrote:That's a little weak, to be honest. One of the better scum tells I've found in multi-scum setups is selective scumhunting, so going after the group that is already weakened for no particular reason is not particularly the best.

Having said that, I am tryign to work out if I'd prefer to aim at Darkness and eliminate a kill, or aim for shadow and keep them trying to cross kill.
Funny thing, you're doing exactly the same scum tell you yourself are talking about.
SerialClergyman wrote:The lack of night kill last night from Shadow means in all probability we have a confirmed town somewhere. If we managed to find and lynch the last Darkness member, we'd have 9 members going into night. That means, assuming no more protections, we'd have 8 members with which we'd have to find 2 scum. This isn't a slam dunk, but it's not a bad scenario, especially with one confirmed town in the mix not to mention potential blocks or defends from other power roles.
The first time I read this, I thought "what an interesting analysis." But then, I started to think. Why does the lack of Shadow night kill mean we have a confirmed town? Darkness can have a guardian. That means that there's no confirmed town somewhere. But if you believe that, it's because you know that Shadow didn't target Darkness on the night, but a pro-town player. And thus, not having killed him/her, you now believe the town has a guardian role. Also, using your own logic, your selective hunting makes you look scummier. The rest of your post just follow that same logic.

I believe you just slipped.

Incant: SerialClergyman


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Post Post #410 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:27 am

Post by Snow_Bunny »

Faraday wrote:
SerialClergyman wrote:
To that end, I thought your point about Seacore was excellent, but unlike you I'm going to vote discode because he wasn't on the mipe wagon, was on the Seacore wagon and was scummy throughout D1.

Vote DisCode
Ya know it might help if you said why he was scummy day 1. It also might be useful if you'd mentioned Discode day 1,
at all
. Ctrl + F reveals no mention of Discode in your day 1 posts at all. You had seacore down as scummy, who was in direct opposition to most of DisCode's points, so what gives here?
Oh, this brings yet another interesting point against SC. Scummt++
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Post Post #411 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:40 am

Post by Snow_Bunny »

Snow_Bunny wrote:
startransmission wrote:I think Chaco is town. I find the points that semi and dramonic are using against him are weak. Chaco has done well with pointing out why. And I also see a buddying between Semi and Dramonic.


Incant: Dramonic
Why Dramonic and not SOG?

And what makes you think Chaco is town?
Answer the bolded question, please.
semioldguy wrote:
Chaco wrote:You are saying that you have no read on him. You labeled him as not scummy to you. That sounds like a read to me. The ambiguity lies in your trying to cover up that lie.
"Not scummy" isn't a read. It is a lack of one. (that's what the "not" is for, it means that some) To be specific, it is a lack of a scummy read. "Not scummy" is a subset of "no read."

The definition of not having a read is that I don't find a person to be scummy/town/third-party/anything! Not having a read means that I don't find a player to be any of those things. I don't understand what is so difficult to comprehend about this. Saying that someone is not scummy to me and that I have no read on that person are not conflicting things.

Chaco, do you ever find people to be scummy that you have no read on?
I agree with Chaco on this one. You are contradicting yourself. Saying someone is "not scummy" is a read. Saying "I have no read" is a total different matter.
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Post Post #412 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:14 am

Post by semioldguy »

Chaco wrote:Is it that hard to grasp that deeming someone not scummy requires a read?
It is that hard to grasp that it doesn't? I have
shown
why it doesn't. You have explicitly ignored this. You have provided no counter-evidence or argument as to why I am wrong. You make no effort to either prove or disprove my point. You just saying something with absolutely nothing but your word to back it up does not make it true. I am not going to bother trying to explain this further to you since it is doing the town no good and you seem intent on repeating yourself while ignoring anything I write anyway.

Why does it require a read to not have a scummy read on someone? If you don't have any read at all, then don't you not have a scummy read?
Snow_Bunny wrote:I agree with Chaco on this one. You are contradicting yourself. Saying someone is "not scummy" is a read. Saying "I have no read" is a total different matter.
Then you can be wrong too. I am not saying and never have said that the two are the same. Saying someone is
NOT
scummy isn't a read. It is a lack of one.
That what the word "NOT" means!!!
When anyone calls someone not scummy, it means you are not able to find a scummy read. It isn't a read, it is not being able to find a read of scummy. Maybe you also find a different read, but also maybe you didn't.

(1) Not having a read on a player
(2) Finding someone not scummy

If (1) is true, then (2) will also always be true. However, (2) being true does not always mean that (1) will always be true.
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Post Post #413 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:21 am

Post by Faraday »

Chaco wrote:Is it that hard to grasp that deeming someone not scummy requires a read?
This :? But apparently it is.

I dunno though if this is a big deal or not, it seems to be a pointless semantical argument that's clogging up the thread.

Semi do you have any examples off hand where you stated no read means not scummy before?
are you thinking of me when you're with somebody else?
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Post Post #414 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:30 am

Post by semioldguy »

Anyone other than Chaco could probably just skip this post, there isn't really any content in this post, I just want Chaco to actually answer the questions I'm asking rather than giving me answers I'm not interested in to questions I'm not asking in their place.

Chaco, you seem to think that you answer questions when in fact, you are not directly answering the question being asked.

For example, if I asked "Do you ever play hockey on Sundays?" The answer to this question would be either "yes" or "no." If you answered "I play hockey all the time, it's a really fun sport." then you are not answering the question. While this may be nice information, I still wouldn't know whether or not you ever play hockey on Sundays.

Now let's use an example from our exchange:

semioldguy: Do you ever find people to be scummy that you have no read on?

Chaco: I rarely have no read, and when I do it is early on D1. Scum slips and tells change my read to scummy. What you are saying makes no sense.

Now, if I was asking any of "how often do you have no read?", "At what times do you have no read?", "what changes your reads to scummy?" or "Does what I'm saying make sense to you?" then you would have answered my question brilliantly. However, from your answer I still don't know whether you ever find people to be scummy when you have no read on them.

So I asked again. to get this response:

Chaco: And again I will say, I form an opinion. So I guess I'll say no because, once they do something scummy that attributes to a read.

Holy crap, you answered the question... kind of. Okay... so no,
you don't find them scummy when you have no read on them
. Great! Oh then you come with this gem:

Chaco: I explained the way I did it, that's better than a yes or no answer. Only using Yes or No limits my reply to only something you want to hear.

Better than a yes or no answer?!? While you gave me much more information than a yes or no would have given, only "yes" and "no" are answers to the question. (
and maybe saying 'I never once in my life had no read on any player, ever" because it would get at something false within the question. however. this isn't the case as you admitted in your answer that you only rarely have no read, not never
). While limiting it to "yes" and "no" actually does limit your reply to what I want to hear, the only thing I actually want to hear is an answer to the question. Unless, of course, not answering questions is considered better than answering them.

You didn't want to answer the question because your reply is only something I want to hear? Should I only ask questions that I don't want to hear the answer from? That wouldn't be very productive. I mean... I am only asking the question in the first place because what I want to hear is an answer. That's kind of the point of asking questions. Otherwise, why ask questions at all?

Now for the next question you've so expertly dodged:

semioldguy: Even if I were lying about having no read on dramonic, which I am not lying about, why would that be scummy?

I'm not really sure what exactly you thought was an answer, so I'll just lump all of it in there and show you why it isn't.

Chaco: Liars get lynched. Plus, I am trying to understand your "No read" + "He's not scummy to me" combination. They don't parallel. And as you said, I am trying to get to the context of it, but you're going into a turtle shell.

We'll just start with part one. Nice, you are trying to understand the combination, or at least are claiming to. What have you done to try? I have shown you a way that they do parallel, or at least I claim that they do. Then it goes to your turn. If you don't think they do, you need to show why my example doesn't parallel. You need to prove it wrong. Just saying it doesn't work gets everybody nowhere and proves nothing. Effort is needed. You don't keep your job by saying you'll show up to work on time every day, you keep it by proving that you do.

As for trying to get to the context... the context is already there. We are now past the context. To look at the context you must on your own examine the part of the game immediately surrounding my post and what my post means in conjunction with other posts made up through that point. Though maybe you're just confused with what I meant by context.

Let's get to part two....

Chaco: Town can do scummy things yes. So you're saying we can pass you off as town because you did something scummy? No, I'm trying to get to the bottom of something and you're shelling up on me with a wall of useless post whining because you're under scrutiny.

Hmm... I don't remember saying that I could be passed of as town for doing something scummy. Heck, I don't even think I did something scummy since I know I'm not lying. If anything I am supporting the opposite, that nothing should be passed off. That everything needs to be looked or thought further into to determine a judgment. Yes, and you are not whining at all in comparison to me and your wall posts are also not useless. That was sarcasm in case you were unaware. Our posting between each other has been equally useless to the town from both parties. However, I am attempting to use evidence and example to prove my side... oh, you aren't doing any of that? What are you trying to do in your posts again? Tell me I'm wrong? Well, if you won't give me a reason with examples or evidence that I am wrong, I am inclined to believe my own examples over you... uh... nothing.

After all, I know what I am thinking and you don't. So who are you to tell me how I think about stuff?
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Post Post #415 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:32 am

Post by semioldguy »

If any of you think my examples are wrong... then DO something to SHOW they are wrong. Saying they are wrong, and doing nothing to show or disprove it other than giving me your word obviously is not going to sway my opinion.
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Post Post #416 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:37 am

Post by semioldguy »

Faraday wrote:Semi do you have any examples off hand where you stated no read means not scummy before?
Probably. I'll look. If not, I'll have on from now on after this game.
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Post Post #417 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:39 am

Post by semioldguy »

@starttransmission
Check out Post 397.
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Post Post #418 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:42 am

Post by Chaco »

Semi, you aren't proving your examples right...you are reiterating them.

To answer your questions, only using Yes/No:

Q: Do you ever play hockey on Sundays?


A: No.

Q: Do you ever find people to be scummy that you have no read on?


A: No.

A Elaborated: By finding them scummy my read would go from "No read" to "Scummy".

Now to this:

"Tell my why they do not parallel."

You CANNOT have a NO READ on someone who TO YOU...ISN'T SCUMMY. They contradict in every shape and form.

It's Kinda Like this:

Town------------No Read-----------Scum

To the left is town, and to the right is scum.

You said "He is not scummy to me." Which puts us here.

Town---<D----No Read---------Scum
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Post Post #419 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:56 am

Post by semioldguy »

My line isn't the same as yours:

Town----------Neutral----------Scum

No Read----------Read

"No read" isn't on the same line. I differentiate between neutral read and no read.
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Post Post #420 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:42 am

Post by semioldguy »

Hmm... in typing up another response, I may have found where the clash here is. Saying "Someone is not scummy" and saying "I find someone not scummy" are not the same thing. You all seem to be assuming the verb "to be" while that is not the verb I am using. I am using the verb "to find."

They aren't even the same sentence structure. With the verb 'to be,' 'not scummy is the part of the nominative (essentially the subject). With the verb 'to find,' 'not scummy' is the direct object (part of the predicate).
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Post Post #421 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:55 am

Post by Chaco »

I do not feel the English is the problem here, it is the Logic behind the English.

You said:
semioldguy wrote:But as of now I do not find dramonic to be scummy.
Do not find him to be scummy. The "find" you are using is "to feel or perceive", so you do not feel he is scummy?

Which goes back the very same thing. This is not a difference of English, as you wish to pass it off as.
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Post Post #422 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:03 am

Post by semioldguy »

An verb example/comparison:

I say, "I did not find there to be any emeralds in that cave."

This could be the result of multiple scenarios. Suppose I elaborate more. "I found rubies to be in that cave instead." or "I didn't find there to be any gems in that cave."

Neither of these elaborations to my answer makes the original answer untrue. They could also be answers to the question themselves, since both elaborations show that I did not find any emeralds.

Maybe instead I say, "Emeralds are not in that cave."

By changing the verb, the meaning is changed. Now I am stating my knowledge that there are not emeralds in the cave. In the first situation there might be emeralds in that cave, we only know I haven't found any. Maybe I suck at finding emeralds, or maybe I hadn't even gotten to looking for gems in that cave, we just know I haven't found there to be any.

Now let's say that "gems" represent different kinds of reads and emerald is a particularly scummy gem. (emerald is a type of gem, scuminess is a type of read) Also let's say dramonic is the cave.


Now the conversation could go like this.

I say, "I did not find there to be any scuminess in dramonic."

This could be the result of multiple scenarios. Suppose I elaborate more. "I found towniness to be in dramonic instead." or "I didn't find there to be any reads in dramonic."

These all makes sense, yes? Neither of these elaborations to my answer makes the original answer untrue. They could also be answers to the question themselves, since both elaborations show that I did not find any scuminess.

Maybe instead I say, "Scuminess is not in dramonic."

By changing the verb, the meaning is changed. Now I am stating my knowledge that there is not scuminess in dramonic. In the first situation there might be scuminess in dramonic, we only know I haven't found any. Maybe I suck at finding scuminess, or maybe I hadn't even gotten to looking for reads in dramonic, we just know I haven't found there to be any.
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Post Post #423 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:04 am

Post by semioldguy »

Chaco wrote:
semioldguy wrote:But as of now I do not find dramonic to be scummy.
Do not find him to be scummy. The "find" you are using is "to feel or perceive", so you do not feel he is scummy?

Which goes back the very same thing. This is not a difference of English, as you wish to pass it off as.
"to feel or perceive" are still not the same verbs, or even the same types of verbs as "to be."
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Post Post #424 (ISO) » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:11 am

Post by semioldguy »

Chaco wrote:The "find" you are using is "to feel or perceive", so you do not feel he is scummy?

Which goes back the very same thing. This is not a difference of English, as you wish to pass it off as.
It is the verb thing. If I'm not feeling anything then I am definitely not feeling that he is scummy.
I'm such a good lover because I practice a lot on my own.

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