Mini 857 Disney Movie Mafia 2 - The Classics (Roll Credits)

[LlamaFluff]

I have to go now so will post more on what I have later, but the roles

~Town~
Starbuck (Buzz) - VT
kmd (Belle) - VT
semioldguy (Robin) - VT
chamber (sebastian) - VT
Strangercoug (bambi) - Innocent Child
gorrad (balto) - Inventor that gave one shot doctors
CKD (simba) - Progressive (vanilla D1, compulsive commuter N1, Vig D2/N2, Double Voter D3+)
monkeyman (peter pan) - Watcher that goes to VT when town is lynched

~Mafia~
Jazzmyn (Baloo) - Roleblocker
KK (Sniffer) - Mixed Tracker/Watcher, got names of anyone who interacted with their target
Neopi (Lady) - Godfather (inv immune only), essentially goon

~Other~
Crazy (Walt Disney) - Could day kill once a day, had to match player name to character name

____________________________

Actions

~N1
Gorrad gives doc to Jazz
Jazz blocks Crazy
KK tracks CKD (failed results)
Neopi kills chamber

~N2
KK tracks Crazy
Jazz kills SC
CKD kills SC

[Kublai Khan]

Awesome!

Great job to Jazzmyn! Brandi also did a good job leaving me in a good spot. Was kinda mad at Neopi for stealing me damn role claim.. Could have been real bad it there was a limited tracker of some sort.

Interesting setup. That Progressive Townie role did manage to mess with scum, though it didn't make a huge difference. StrangerCoug dying on Night 2 was key to victory. We thought he was the Day-SK.

[StrangerCoug]

Damn. Both people who killed me thought I was SK. I was hoping to be able to use my ability.

[Crazy]

Bleh, the lack of a quickhammer led me to believe that Jazz/KK weren't scum together.

(SOG, if I would have voted KK, would you have done so as well?)

Honestly, I thought you were scum, SOG, just because you seemed to ignore the possibility of my win condition on principle, and not because you thought I was lying.

Actually, I was lying. Nobody could win with me. *wince*

Well played, KK and Jazz. I had a hunch you were scum, KK, but I wasn't really sure at all. Jazz, that was cool how you tried to save Gorrad from being lynched, and that was a major town tell for you in my point of view.

[Jazzmyn]

Fabulous! Kublai Khan, you did a fantastic job! I'd be delighted to scum-partner with you any time.

Thanks to Brandi and Neopi, too. Brandi did a good job, especially when she quickly voted Neopi on Day 2, and although Neopi was, um, erratic, he managed to throw enough crap at the wall to get Monkey lynched over himself on Night 1, which helped us.

Crazy, thanks for shooting Neopi before he could cause damage to the Mafia team on Day 2 by having to come up with unbelievable result claims and such.

The set up was fun, and very new to me as I've never played in a game with roles like Progressive Townie, Innocent Child, Day SK, Inventor, or combination Watcher/Tracker before. Many thanks to the game moderator, LlamaFluff, not only for the great game but for letting me continue throughout my unfortunate but necessary absences. I really appreciate that, as staying in the game gave me the opportunity to occupy my mind with things other than the stresses and grief that I had to deal with in real life. So, again, thank you.

Regards,
Jazz

[curiouskarmadog]

god dammit...I was right about Jazz....should have killed him instead of SC.

crazy killing me then claiming I dont understand AT ALL.

[Kublai Khan]

Bleh, the lack of a quickhammer led me to believe that Jazz/KK weren't scum together.

I think it more timing than anythign else.. Jazz saw that I was making posts in the GD/MD forums, so she took a gamble on making a vote.

Honestly, I thought you were scum, SOG, just because you seemed to ignore the possibility of my win condition on principle, and not because you thought I was lying.

Actually, I was lying. Nobody could win with me. *wince*

Huh.. I figured that if you were lying, it was probably about the NK immunity. What would happen if there was 1 town/1 mafia/1 SK and you day-killed the mafia.. Would the townie win, or.. what?

Well played, KK and Jazz. I had a hunch you were scum, KK, but I wasn't really sure at all. Jazz, that was cool how you tried to save Gorrad from being lynched, and that was a major town tell for you in my point of view.

Heh. I love that we have totally different scumtells. I would have been all over her like white on rice. We'd probably make either good or horrible scum-partners.

Fabulous! Kublai Khan, you did a fantastic job! I'd be delighted to scum-partner with you any time.

Likewise. I always enjoy scheming with intelligent players.

The set up was fun, and very new to me as I've never played in a game with roles like Progressive Townie, Innocent Child, Day SK, Inventor, or combination Watcher/Tracker before. Many thanks to the game moderator, LlamaFluff,

Hear! Hear! Inventive roles, great recruitment of players, excellent flavor. Great job LlamaFluff. I'm glad I replaced in.

[Crazy]

crazy killing me then claiming I dont understand AT ALL.

I wanted to get the town in LyLo. If I managed to do that and then scum was lynched, I would win.

I chose to kill you because I didn't want to hit scum, and you were confirmed town. Also, since you were a double-voter, and if the scum didn't kill you (and with Jazz being scum, I'm not sure they would have, because if you were killed that would pretty much out Jazz as scum), that could mess up my game.

I claimed because if I was ever lynched, I knew the mafia would instantly win. I didn't consider that people would start talking like SOG. Also, claiming would instantly remove myself from the town's suspect list and make scum-hunting more productive.

I believe killing you still gave me a better chance of winning than trying to aim for scum. It made it simple - I win if scum is lynched; I lose if scum isn't lynched.

[Crazy]

Huh.. I figured that if you were lying, it was probably about the NK immunity. What would happen if there was 1 town/1 mafia/1 SK and you day-killed the mafia.. Would the townie win, or.. what?

Nope. I would be the only winner. I said it just so I couldn't lose in a Kingmaker scenario (1 mafia, 1 SK, and 2 townies left alive.)

[LlamaFluff]

This game was based on a few concepts.

First was the day-SK. I went all over the place with what to make the limitations of them to be, since they would drastically chance which of town/mafia had the greatest win opportunity. Varients that I had were

-Day SK, Night Character Cop, Has to match up characters, gets two attempts but only one success a day.
-Day SK, can kill anyone any time

In the end I went with the list, so they will likely have one or two possible kills each day. Usually whoever is near a lynch, which turns them (at least intended to) into more of an executioner type role.

Crazy actually making the kill he did day one floored me, I figured Starbuck or Monkey would be taking the hit there. This role also slightly increased watcher power since town would (likely) have one flip of a near lynched player to work with. Finally a punishment for the town if they decided to claim early, as with more information, the SK got much stronger.

Secondly I had two roles that became almost infinately stronger as the game went along in the IC and Progressive role. The IC was more or less SK bait if he didnt outlast him in life, but would be very strong in the late game if they got that far.

Progressive was much sneakier getting there, but in the late game a DV, especially one that was non-existant for the first part of the game, could be the game changer. If these roles made it much further, it could of been a strong town block.

Last thing I played with was a deceptively overpowered mafia. The GF was completely useless as there was no cop, so they essentially were a goon. The track-watch had almost no one to pick up too. The Pharm and watcher were the only roles they could notice, and post N1, there could of been the problem of VT roles having a doctor ability to mess with this role as well.

---

Im interested to hear feedback on the balance of this game since I had quite a few different opinions of some of the roles throughout the review process. Also it would help me with future games that im starting to tinker with a bit, but im still waiting for the "That would be awesome" inspiration.

[curiouskarmadog]

so the mass claim killed us (town)..or at least didnt help

[Starbuck]

Nice to see that I was right about who was scum.

[Jazzmyn]

Except that you called every single player in the game (other than yourself and maybe YankCane) scum during the game, which kind of negates you being "right" about it.



Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

so the mass claim killed us (town)..or at least didnt help

Yeah, the mass claim hurt the town because it led the SK to take out the strongest town role (you) since there were so few town power roles left. But none of us had any way of knowing that that would be the result, of course, until after it happened.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

god dammit...I was right about Jazz....should have killed him instead of SC.

Problem was, you never actually made a case on me and didn't even attempt to make a case on me. All you did was say "Jazz is scummy" without any reasoning or backup at all, and you didn't even vote for my lynch until the last day, which you did only briefly (again without any reasoning or backup) and then you unvoted me shortly thereafter when someone else asked you to do so.

Not surprising, in those circumstances, that others didn't vote to lynch me.

But yes, had you killed me instead of SC when you had the opportunity, that would certainly have been interesting.

Regards,
Jazz

[Kublai Khan]

Nice to see that I was right about who was scum.

You nailed both of us on the last day.

Actually, I'd like to apologize to you if you were truly insulted by my play. It really wasn't my intentions to hurt your feelings or permanently antagonize you in any way.

But after Crazy's claim, I realized that the mafia's best chance for victory was to lynch a townie. So, it had to be one of you or SOG. I got aggressive against you because I perceived that to be a weakness for you. I was hoping that you'd get flustered a bit by my ridiculous accusations, and I think it kinda worked because you never really did present a case against me.

Sp, no hard feelings?

[Starbuck]

Except that you called every single player in the game (other than yourself and maybe YankCane) scum during the game, which kind of negates you being "right" about it.



Regards,
Jazz

No, my top two picks for scum were yourself and Brandi, and I was right.

Gorrad WAS scummy, and semioldguy, I had a pro-town feel on.


So if you need to keep telling yourself the above to make yourself sleep better at night do so, but you don't know what I think, you aren't in my brain, and I would appreciate it if you would stop acting like you are.

[chamber]

boo.

[curiouskarmadog]

dammit after my first read through the game...this was my scum list.

I NEED TO ALWAYS GO WITH MY GUT..ALWAYS.

Scum:

Jazz, this guy has been super scummy all of Day one. His votes and post are pragmatic and his defense of the Mafia GF is horrid.

KK (brandi), lurker, what little she did do I think was scummy

[curiouskarmadog]

wait, that being said, I also had crazy as the only one who was town...

screw my gut.

[chamber]

This game should be mentioned somewhere as what not to do day1.

[Starbuck]

Llama,

The only thing I have to say for the game itself is that having an SK killing off most of the town, not having a scum goon made things a bit overpowered. I'm not sure that with Crazy still alive and the two scum that the town even stood a chance.

[Starbuck]

I know that the godfather was essentially a goon, but I really don't think town stood a chance against those overpowered roles.

[chamber]

Llama,

The only thing I have to say for the game itself is that having an SK killing off most of the town, not having a scum goon made things a bit overpowered. I'm not sure that with Crazy still alive and the two scum that the town even stood a chance.

I'm very quickly becomming an advocate of no sks in 12 mans. The town still played quite poorly threwout though.

[semioldguy]

I possibly would have voted Kublai Khan if you had Crazy, but would have been very hard pressed to vote anyone but you the following day (since anything else led to a town loss. I don't trust anti-town role claims out of both principal and experience. They only have motivation to win, and being honest with town hardly ever lines up, plus I know what I've lied about before as third party when I've been outted.

Why was Jazz trying to save Gorrad (both sooo late and quite ineffectively by also not doing anything herself to support the idea, i.e. moving her vote to help save him) a town tell for you Crazy?

I was completely right about the final five of us, and that Starbuck and I couldn't win at that point I knew that if two scum were left there was no way for Crazy not to win if we lynched scum, which is part of why I was so apprehensive of lynching scum at that point, since ldoing so led to my own loss (which wasn't a good feeling).

@Llama
The only complaint I have about the setup is that it allowed two players (Starbuck and I) to both still be playing when it was essentially impossible for us to win. That hurt the fun for me a bit, playing to win when I know I can't and knowing that I have to still keep playing. To be honest what I was thinking is that the only way I couldn't lose was to request to be replaced out, which I obviously didn't want to do because it's not playing to win or in the spirit of the game. The anti-town roles should be constructed in such a way that town (or any alignment) shouldn't be 100% out of a win at any point in my opinion if they are still playing. With both Day killing and kill immune SK, there was no chance for a real cross-kill to potentially bring town back into the game.

Any NK-immune SK should almost never aim for scum, since killing the townies early on increase the chances of an SK win drastically. Get scum on the lynches and town on your kills. (which is why I really don't like night kill immunity in any variety in minis to begin with, because it skews the balance to much with so few players) I mean, if you have a five-player endgame scenario, chances are greater than half that the Night Kill-immune player is still alive if everything assumed random, since he couldn't have been night killed. This generally makes the win condition for at least one faction practically unwinnable. Not the same case with a 20 player game, since it's much harder to make it to end game (still don't like night kill immunity on any role though), more through personal opinion.