Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[DarkLightA]

Arguing is scummy when it's off topic.

You just called yourself scummy. You're the only one off topic.

Do NOT use the "My town-meta suggests that I play scummishly, so now when I play scummishly I can't be scum" excuse.

[saberwolf]

Arguing is scummy when it's off topic.

You just called yourself scummy. You're the only one off topic.

Do NOT use the "My town-meta suggests that I play scummishly, so now when I play scummishly I can't be scum" excuse.

Ah, but I'm not. You are attempting to engage me in off topic debate. Also, I'm not claiming town meta, I'm claiming my anti-town meta. Everyone who plays me should know I have my "attempt to play and actually try" playstyle, and my "I like the game but I really rather not put too much effort into it, and if forced to I'll take the path of least resistance" playstyle. Can you guess which one this is?

unvote; vote: DLA

The winds have shifted momentarily...

[DarkLightA]

Arguing is scummy when it's off topic.

You just called yourself scummy. You're the only one off topic.

Do NOT use the "My town-meta suggests that I play scummishly, so now when I play scummishly I can't be scum" excuse.

Ah, but I'm not. You are attempting to engage me in off topic debate. Also, I'm not claiming town meta, I'm claiming my anti-town meta. Everyone who plays me should know I have my "attempt to play and actually try" playstyle, and my "I like the game but I really rather not put too much effort into it, and if forced to I'll take the path of least resistance" playstyle. Can you guess which one this is?

unvote; vote: DLA

The winds have shifted momentarily...

You seem to forget that your votes don't mean anything any more. Again you're following a BW.

Nice try to disguise the vote behind reasoning. Too bad it was awful reasoning. Please supply quotes to where I got you off topic.

[farside22]

It's days like this that I think there needs to be more open games that have vig's.

[saberwolf]

Arguing is scummy when it's off topic.

You just called yourself scummy. You're the only one off topic.

Do NOT use the "My town-meta suggests that I play scummishly, so now when I play scummishly I can't be scum" excuse.

Ah, but I'm not. You are attempting to engage me in off topic debate. Also, I'm not claiming town meta, I'm claiming my anti-town meta. Everyone who plays me should know I have my "attempt to play and actually try" playstyle, and my "I like the game but I really rather not put too much effort into it, and if forced to I'll take the path of least resistance" playstyle. Can you guess which one this is?

unvote; vote: DLA

The winds have shifted momentarily...

You seem to forget that your votes don't mean anything any more. Again you're following a BW.

Nice try to disguise the vote behind reasoning. Too bad it was awful reasoning. Please supply quotes to where I got you off topic.

You tried to get me off topic. I won't let you. The last sentence is somewhat confusing and comes across as contradictory somewhat. It sounds like you are saying I am pretending to have reasoning for my vote. That's fine, but then you say my non-existant reasoning is awful, meaning I must have had some reasoning then for my vote. As for the truth, of course I have a reason, [and yes it is also awful], as I'm blantantly OMGUSing you. What do you have to say now?

Discuss.

[farside22]

Wasn't neto's little shoe comment putting the game off topic?

[saberwolf]

Wasn't neto's little shoe comment putting the game off topic?

Did I also not FoS him for it?

Farside: On a less anti-town scale in comparison to me, I'd say you've also followed ABR around for the most part. Is that an accurate observation?

[farside22]

Wasn't neto's little shoe comment putting the game off topic?

Did I also not FoS him for it?

Farside: On a less anti-town scale in comparison to me, I'd say you've also followed ABR around for the most part. Is that an accurate observation?

No. Only vote I followed ABR on was on SC but I made the main case on CSL and vote there first. My opinion on CSL hasn't changed I still think the vote and comment he made when voting for himself was scum motivatived.

[DarkLightA]

You are attempting to engage me in off topic debate.

Supply quote, or unvote.
Nice little rhyme =)

[saberwolf]

In that case, would you assume that ABR may be playing on your emotions towards the case in an effort to gain a mislynch? What are your thoughts towards the other BWs you supported? What about them is no longer worth chasing? [I don't want to hear why SC is more scummy, I wanna hear how the others don't amount up to SC, or in otherwords, how are they less scummy, and why.]

[farside22]

In that case, would you assume that ABR may be playing on your emotions towards the case in an effort to gain a mislynch? What are your thoughts towards the other BWs you supported? What about them is no longer worth chasing? [I don't want to hear why SC is more scummy, I wanna hear how the others don't amount up to SC, or in otherwords, how are they less scummy, and why.]

My votes have been thus:
Random vote ABR - mostly this was a test reaction to see how ABR responded.
Voted DLA: OMGUS vote, misrep's post I made and call's it a BW vote saying I'm voting on him because of pressure on me. All was disputed. More OMGUS votes. There is times I see he is trying to make a point and comment about it whether I'm reading it correctly but it gets ignored.
I'm inbetween thinking anti-town, scum or just a confused person
Voted: CSL - following BW, hypocrisy comments, his unvote and then revote of hewit and finally the self vote all still ranges high on my scum list
votes sttb - I don't care that it's a believe this typo or not saying when doesn't seem like something a town person would say in my view. Using critism's to deflect questions, Also when I see someone not really reading the game it bugs me. I made many points about CSL that he ignored and seemed to comment that I was making it a big deal on one vote when it was more. Comments about meta on CSL but doesnt' feel the meta should be used with DLA.
It's those little things that bother me. Someone defending a person doing the exact same thing another player calling it meta then blowing up when you catch that both can be called meta and I see this as a possible connection between 2 players.
It's why I feel more strongly on sttb or csl then DLA at the momment.

[farside22]

In that case, would you assume that ABR may be playing on your emotions towards the case in an effort to gain a mislynch?

He could be. But as stated above I have sound reasoning for my votes.

[DarkLightA]

You are attempting to engage me in off topic debate.

Supply quote, or unvote.
Nice little rhyme =)

Stop avoiding it. Show that your only case so far is genuine.

[Ellibereth]

I'm still waiting for a reply from Neto on 669.
I make a serious case against him, and he comes back by ignoring it and creating a silly shoe experiment.

[Ellibereth]

@Elli: Wtf happened to you?

Wut? I don't get it.

[Ellibereth]

Not sure if anyone's mentioned this yet, but CSL has self-voted as scum here

His tone is almost the same as here.
I'll be happy lynching Neto or SC today. They're both scum.

[Ellibereth]

Also note that Albert and Neto are also both in that game.

[kikuchiyo]

In any case, self voting is not a scumtell. Ever. I would say it more often than not is a townsperson acting stupid. I see nothing which indicates SC as scum. It seems that we should be lynching Netopalis, ABR, Shotty or Farside.

I think that if we lynch from the pairs of those opposed to one another that we would either hit scum, or reveal that the other player is scum, no? But I guess that circles back to the discussion on setting up lynches.

Right now I am leaning towards Netopalis. Mainly because he is eerily reminding me of the last game we shared.

I am fairly convinced that saber is town. He was my scum partner in Hellsing before ABR replaced in and he played way more horrible than he is now.

Thoughts?

[Ellibereth]

In any case, self voting is not a scumtell. Ever. I would say it more often than not is a townsperson acting stupid. I see nothing which indicates SC as scum. It seems that we should be lynching Netopalis, ABR, Shotty or Farside.

Meh, I disagree about the self-vote-not-a-scumtell thing, especially in this case.
Where did Farside come from?

I think that if we lynch from the pairs of those opposed to one another that we would either hit scum, or reveal that the other player is scum, no? But I guess that circles back to the discussion on setting up lynches.

Sorry, I don't get what you mean here .

You already know what I think about Neto.

[farside22]

In any case, self voting is not a scumtell. Ever. I would say it more often than not is a townsperson acting stupid. I see nothing which indicates SC as scum. It seems that we should be lynching Netopalis, ABR, Shotty or Farside.

Saying it is never a scum tell is a fallicy. You can say it's a null tell but most of the people I know that self vote as town are either fustrated or bored (aka saber). Other then that the other 90% is scum.
Why am I on this list?

I think that if we lynch from the pairs of those opposed to one another that we would either hit scum, or reveal that the other player is scum, no? But I guess that circles back to the discussion on setting up lynches.

What pair? I'm really confused by this statement.

Right now I am leaning towards Netopalis. Mainly because he is eerily reminding me of the last game we shared.

How about a link to said game

[SerialClergyman]

Well, we are not going anywhere, and truthfully, I am growing away from Mafia as we speak.

Unvote:

Vote: CSL

Yes, you guys are right. One down...one to go. Can you find the last scum? We'll find out soon enough.

Go Scum!

Eh, I'd replace out, but it wouldn't do anyone any good, now will it?

The only way I'd get out of this game is if I Unvote and quite possibly Vote: CSL

I had fun, but there are some kinks I need to work on, and it won't do in this game

Say what?? They are similar IN NO WAY. In the first he actually legitimately claims scum. He says go scum in his post for God's sake. He acknowledges he's been caught. In the second game, he does no such thing. He is disappointed at his game. He's sorry to the group, thinking about replacing out but feeling it wouldn't help.

These are actually importantly different events. I can't defend self-voting, it's horrible for either alignment. But it does NOT make CSL more likely to be scum in this case- there are significant differences in those two posts.

The correct way to deal with a self-voter in my mind is auto replace and forget about them. That's why not 7 days ago I was having this exact argument with people who wanted to lynch saberwolf in a different game and asked for a mod replace.

The only lynch I would have supported would be a policy lynch to discourage self voting, but forcible replacement has the added advantage of discouraging the action and then giving you a real player to judge.

[Netopalis]

Elibereth: 669 contains no questions for me. It contains analysis of my posts. Responding in turn to each post number:

8: Fail to see why it's scummy. Yes, I think meta is overrated, but I was just pointing out that he also played poorly in those games, so that alone should not be taken as an indicator of his scumminess.

15: It works rather simply: It sends a message to him saying that his playstyle sucks and it needs to be greatly improved.

21: Meh, it could go either way, but I still have heard nobody really substantiate that case against Hewitt.

27: This refers to a statistical thing that someone posted on here...The gist of it was that the probability of the town successfully lynching on D1 through non-ranodm means is actually lower than the chances of the town successfully lynching through random means. This does not, however, imply that plays need to be random, it's just an interesting point.

28: I'm a very cautious player. I don't like throwing votes around indiscriminately. Once again, this Does Not Make Me Scum (tm)

35: It was. I had asked him 6 times, if I recall, before that to substantiate his claim against Hewitt. He said that he would, but never got around to it and ignored my requests. What was I supposed to do to back up those requests? There's not much I can do aside from casting a vote. Plus, I think that refusal to answer questions or substantiate claims is scummy - at the very least, it's anti-town.

36: Not lining up lynches. Lining up lynches is saying "We will lynch X today, Y tomorrow and Z the day after that". I said "We may want to consider lynching DLA tomorrow, but he's probably not the best play for today.

38: Because CSL is an idiot. He will play that way regardless of his alignment. Therefore, it should not be used in an attempt to prove SC's alignment.

41: He hadn't been doing it as much until that vote. That was in response to his third vote-hop after someone else voted. If you look at the post in context, it makes more sense.

46, 55: I say this for two reasons: 1, our chances of hitting scum today are less than random and 2, because we can more successfully determine whether a good player is scummy tomorrow. Sucky players will still be sucky regardless of alignment and regardless of the day.

[farside22]

He picked the defeatist route without even defending himself. I mean seriously I read the game that is currently going on and I get the impression he goes out fighting when town over scum just based on meta.
Now just for the game voting for oneself without defending yourself can be looked at as a null but I don't know anyone I can think of who replaces out unless they are sick of mafia. He's still playing other games just fine.

[SerialClergyman]

Defeatist =/= scummy. It also isn't similar to when he was defeated as scum and was upbeat, jovially said that they got him and cheered on his team.

When he does it in this game, that's clearly not his mood, he's downbeat and almost apologetic at his own play.

And I don't understand this bit at all -

Now just for the game voting for oneself without defending yourself can be looked at as a null

but I don't know anyone I can think of who replaces out unless they are sick of mafia. He's still playing other games just fine.

He was forcibly replaced out... The mod kicked him out of the game because self-voting was essentially against the rules (not playing to your win con).

[Netopalis]

It should also be noted in Trendy and Subversive that he replaced out without a *great* deal of suspicion against him. If I remember right, he had been away for a while, then all of a sudden he just showed up and claimed scum. As you can imagine, I was pretty ticked. The point is, though, that he doesn't replace out or self-vote if he's scum and starts getting attacked...He replaces out or self-votes if he just starts getting attacked, if he stops enjoying the game, if his shoes are mismatched, if his tie is crooked, if it's Monday evening...he really doesn't need a reason. I've been in 3 other games with him, and in all of those he either self-voted or was replaced.