Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[farside22]

So you don't like me or the way I play and you don't like the comments I made towards you so I must be scum? Way to be personally invested. This is the latest in a line of attempts to maintain a wagon that is falling apart at the seams, Farside has lost out on her last real attempt at a legitimate scum-tell so now she turns to this.

It's a theory I have. To me it makes sense. Why would someone make nasty and degrading comment towards a player based on what they say about a case? Nothing you said was as a defence except in some cases in more ways it's a way to down play a players intellinge with the hope that no other townie listens to them.
Also I pointed out the flip flop with DLA, players missing and with a mod missing in action did you really think that a deadline would be enforced?

[Shotty to the Body]

So you don't like me or the way I play and you don't like the comments I made towards you so I must be scum? Way to be personally invested. This is the latest in a line of attempts to maintain a wagon that is falling apart at the seams, Farside has lost out on her last real attempt at a legitimate scum-tell so now she turns to this.

It's a theory I have. To me it makes sense. Why would someone make nasty and degrading comment towards a player based on what they say about a case? Nothing you said was as a defence except in some cases in more ways it's a way to down play a players intellinge with the hope that no other townie listens to them.
Also I pointed out the flip flop with DLA, players missing and with a mod missing in action did you really think that a deadline would be enforced?

I flip-flopped on DLA? Where? When I moved my vote to CSL? My view didn't change, but a lynch on DLA at that point didn't seem plausible.

It's psychological, how do you possibly know what I hope for? It encourages them to double-check their thinking and examine the situation in a new way, delivering it nicely and politely is likely to be ignored, throw in a mean word and suddenly their all up in arms, works pretty well case and point right here. I sincerely doubt I could convince anyone that someone I don't even know is intellectually incapable of playing mafia. In the end it's their posts that are considered, I won't doubt sound logic from someone just because they made some bad cases in the past that were attacked by me or someone else.

I had no idea if the deadline would be enforced, I've never been in this situation. =\

[farside22]

The summary: CSL Bandwagons and is Hypocritical. Being hypocritical there is a so-so secondary reason, the real reason for the vote is CSL's bandwagon voting. The same thing I said was the only reason for Farside's vote on CSL. This is supposedly all the posts Farside had on CSL, where are all the other reasons she keeps mentioning? I don't see them. If there is something else please give it to me one more time because I missed it.

Someone who follows and makes hypocrical comments = scum.
His backtracking vote is exactly what I feel as ABR said. Oh shit I got caught abort must find another vote tactic.
My point it wasnt' just one vote it was his overall play.
Just as you feel DLA and his play and votes are scummy. I feel that way about CSL.

Also in regards to this comment:

How the fuck are you not preying on a weak player by jumping on the CSL wagon? If you flip CSL town, mark my words no one will forgot how hard you defended a "weaker player" DLA with one hand while lynching the same with the other.

You make it seem I did nothing but defend DLA. But the only time I defend him was in one post where I reference his scum list and I answered how I felt here about him in which you asked me my view.

I need to read when everything happened as you say it happened.
I'm getting the anti-town but not scum vibe from DLA that I can't shake at this moment. First I thought scum based on poor comments and bad logic.
Now it's a confused person who I see some points that may be valid but when he can't confirm if someone caught onto his thinking it just leaves me confused about him.

If your talking about my question about when people want to lynch DLA over another player and using Meta for an excuse to not lynch a player then yes I find it questionable.

[farside22]

So you don't like me or the way I play and you don't like the comments I made towards you so I must be scum? Way to be personally invested. This is the latest in a line of attempts to maintain a wagon that is falling apart at the seams, Farside has lost out on her last real attempt at a legitimate scum-tell so now she turns to this.

It's a theory I have. To me it makes sense. Why would someone make nasty and degrading comment towards a player based on what they say about a case? Nothing you said was as a defence except in some cases in more ways it's a way to down play a players intellinge with the hope that no other townie listens to them.
Also I pointed out the flip flop with DLA, players missing and with a mod missing in action did you really think that a deadline would be enforced?

I flip-flopped on DLA? Where? When I moved my vote to CSL? My view didn't change, but a lynch on DLA at that point didn't seem plausible.

It's psychological, how do you possibly know what I hope for? It encourages them to double-check their thinking and examine the situation in a new way, delivering it nicely and politely is likely to be ignored, throw in a mean word and suddenly their all up in arms, works pretty well case and point right here. I sincerely doubt I could convince anyone that someone I don't even know is intellectually incapable of playing mafia. In the end it's their posts that are considered, I won't doubt sound logic from someone just because they made some bad cases in the past that were attacked by me or someone else.

I had no idea if the deadline would be enforced, I've never been in this situation. =\

Giving up a vote and flipping back on DLA. I don't question your drive onto DLA it's your vote on CSL when you placed it that I question

As for the psychological aspects well it's cynical but so far undisputed. When a dominate personality enters into a group and demoralizes another person most of society will follow suit as they don't not wish to be the recipient of said verbal onslaught
As for using it to wake up a person for making a dumb comment there was only one thing I agreed with you that I missed that was indeed dumb the rest just looks to me like demoralizing my comments.
Now how does RL psychological work in favor of scum in this case. Showing a player as inept you can just use this as a blocker for any case against you as scum and show how their theory was dumb throughout the game and why players should not listen to the player.
Again this is all just in theory from a psychological point but I could see it used in this manner.

[Shotty to the Body]

So you don't like me or the way I play and you don't like the comments I made towards you so I must be scum? Way to be personally invested. This is the latest in a line of attempts to maintain a wagon that is falling apart at the seams, Farside has lost out on her last real attempt at a legitimate scum-tell so now she turns to this.

It's a theory I have. To me it makes sense. Why would someone make nasty and degrading comment towards a player based on what they say about a case? Nothing you said was as a defence except in some cases in more ways it's a way to down play a players intellinge with the hope that no other townie listens to them.
Also I pointed out the flip flop with DLA, players missing and with a mod missing in action did you really think that a deadline would be enforced?

I flip-flopped on DLA? Where? When I moved my vote to CSL? My view didn't change, but a lynch on DLA at that point didn't seem plausible.

It's psychological, how do you possibly know what I hope for? It encourages them to double-check their thinking and examine the situation in a new way, delivering it nicely and politely is likely to be ignored, throw in a mean word and suddenly their all up in arms, works pretty well case and point right here. I sincerely doubt I could convince anyone that someone I don't even know is intellectually incapable of playing mafia. In the end it's their posts that are considered, I won't doubt sound logic from someone just because they made some bad cases in the past that were attacked by me or someone else.

I had no idea if the deadline would be enforced, I've never been in this situation. =\

Giving up a vote and flipping back on DLA. I don't question your drive onto DLA it's your vote on CSL when you placed it that I question

As for the psychological aspects well it's cynical but so far undisputed. When a dominate personality enters into a group and demoralizes another person most of society will follow suit as they don't not wish to be the recipient of said verbal onslaught
As for using it to wake up a person for making a dumb comment there was only one thing I agreed with you that I missed that was indeed dumb the rest just looks to me like demoralizing my comments.
Now how does RL psychological work in favor of scum in this case. Showing a player as inept you can just use this as a blocker for any case against you as scum and show how their theory was dumb throughout the game and why players should not listen to the player.
Again this is all just in theory from a psychological point but I could see it used in this manner.

I told you why I placed that vote, I can't explain it any more than that. I'm not really sure what your point is here at any rate. If I refused to look at the other lynch targets that's tunneling, trying to move the game along is part of being pro-town and at that point I felt like I was bashing my head against a wall with a deadline closing in. I mean you agree with CSL's replacement now on voting me, you contest that he's scum no? Isn't that the same thing you accuse me of doing with ABR?

So your theory is why you're voting me now? It looks like you're looking for a reason to vote me now rather than actually having concrete evidence now. Pretty much all I have to say about how I play has been said.

[farside22]

Actually it's the "when" comment and the lining up lynches that you did sttb that makes you seem scummy to me.
Add to the fact that when you call someone scum and follow them after arguing for pages about not wanting to vote for the person in question.
The difference you might ask is that I commented about the lining up of the lynches and your mistype first which rang my scumdar.
All the rest of what I have is theory.

[Shotty to the Body]

Meh, I've said all I have to say about that crap, not going to rehash the same counterpoints.

ABR where did you go? I need you to talk about Neto.

[dramonic]

The Eigth Votecount: Standing Still!

DarkLightA (3): Hewitt, SttB, Saberwolf
saberwolf (2): Ojanen, DarkLightA
Netopalis (1): ABR
SttB (3): SerialClergyman, Farside, Elli
ABR (1): Netopalis

Not Voting (2): KittyMo, Kikuchiyo

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline is the 23rd at 23:59!

[KittyMo]

Limited Access

until the new battery charger cable for my laptop comes in the mail. :<

As a result, I still haven't gotten a good chance to read the thread.

[farside22]

Farside and SC are pushing a case on Shotty based on mostly ethereal evidence.

1) Lining up lynches

I don't agree this is a scumtell in this situation.

2) Going for easy targets

This is the only valid argument against him. Shotty, why are you going for easy targets? DLA can be lynched whenever. Now is not the time, trust me.

3) Calling me a scumbuddy of DLA, and changing his mind

I don't think it was as far-fetched as that. Seems plausible considering it was still early in the day, and now he changed his mind. Good players change their mind a lot, it's part of recognizing and fixing your mistakes.

1. Why not? What is your theory on those who line up lynches and what it means for town vs scum
2. no issue
3. He stated twice he felt that way and when he changes his mind it's like something that just comes out of the blue. Hell he says I'm defending DLA and when DLA flips scum I will be next as his scum partner. So what is anyone that defends DLA his scum partner?

[farside22]

farside - that's actually the kind of language tell that I hate. I'm sure I've said something similar, I often say 'blah is town' or 'blah is certainly scum'. If you are actually scum you can control that. Any decent player can be careful to say 'if they flip...' or 'we were right' not 'the town was right'. It's just easy to circumnavigate, so once the tell is common knowledge, it's pretty worthless. I wouldn't put much stock in that quote you posted at all, to be perfectly honest.

Thank you for some common sense. Like I said, Farside is more concerned with what looks scummy, I don't have any idea if that's due to alignment or just the way she plays.

I'm not sure how this is supposed to be an insult. If something looks scummy and it sounds scummy doesn't it make it scummy?

[Albert B. Rampage]

farside, you've said this is your first game in a long time. Can you admit that your reads are off? Kiku already told you why lining up lynches is a null tell. You are being stubborn on this issue. You are a stubborn person in general, and I wouldn't know how to ask you to drop this matter, but Shotty is most likely town, and we sure as hell ain't gonna vote him off because of you and SC.

ABR where did you go? I need you to talk about Neto.

I want you to stop focusing on farside or SC, and start playing the game aggressively as you should. *You* make a case on Neto. Go and convince yourself. I already know who I'm lynching today.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Look, I have no experience in conflict management or whatever, but I'm going to say this: you guys need to make up. Farside, quit acting like a victim and calling what Shotty says "degrading", and flipping out over some shit and accusing this person almost twice your junior of sexism. Shotty, you could be more careful with your choice of words if you tried. I know you were annoyed. There are situations in life where you don't want to look annoyed even if you are. And this is a game, guys, not your personal war against people who are incompatible with you. This is my poor attempt at reconciliation for what it's worth. I just want to catch scum.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I suck at conflict resolution. I just need you guys on my side if I want to win this game.

[Netopalis]

Interesting choice of words, I have to say.....

[SerialClergyman]

I agree about the tone and everyone chilling out a bit, I disagree that because it got heated there must not be anything substantial to the argument.

I disagree on a fundamental level about lining up lynches. Saying you want to lynch someone, then if they flip town lynch someone else is fundamentally scummy play. That is, in a nutshell, a description of exactly how the scum work, going from mislynch to mislynch. I'm genuinely surprised at ABR for not agreeing with me on this point.

I'm possibly biased because in the following game, bigmc as scum does exactly this here:

Yes, muh is looking pretty bad, and

if Staple flips town, I'll definetely be voting muh tomorrow.

But because of what I just said, I'm really liking my Staple vote right now.

and I nail him as town on it here:

crypto -

lining up lynches in D1 on townflips is absolutely a scumtell.

Saying if A turns up scum we should lynch B is fine, because you're looking at scumteams. But saying if A is town, we should move on to B is an easy way to get a couple of mislynches, andin this case they were two juicy targets. It looks to me like bigmc went for lynchbait number one and signalled his intent to turn on lynchbait number two (and co-voter of staple) the next day.

I encourage anyone who is keen to read all about it here. I've always thought it was a scumtell and am at least surprised to hear ABR dismissing it.

And to be specific - lining up who you're going to hit next if your target flips scum is fine - that's just looking for scum teams. What I specifically find scummy is someone saying I want to lynch this person because I think he's scum, but if I'm wrong about that and he's actually town, I ALREADY KNOW MY NEXT LYNCH. This is outright scummy. It ignores the fact that you were wrong about your first instinct, it ignores informaiton from the wagon and the night kill, it encourages another target without thinking about how the game has changed and it allows scum to have their cake and eat it too when picking sides. It's enough for a D1 vote any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I'd also point out that one of ABR's best attribute is his ability to push the town around, which is awesome, except when he's wrong or off on a tangent, in which case it's irritating. But you don't have to be swept along, if you actually look at his posts they're a lot less powerful than they appear.

I want you to stop focusing on farside or SC, and start playing the game aggressively as you should. *You* make a case on Neto. Go and convince yourself. I already know who I'm lynching today.

This, for example, sounds a lot better than it is. Essentially, all he's saying is that he cbf to post a case.

You are a stubborn person in general, and I wouldn't know how to ask you to drop this matter, but Shotty is most likely town, and we sure as hell ain't gonna vote him off because of you and SC.

This is to try to push down the fact that there's currently 3 people on shotty's wagon, the equal biggest wagon in the game, tied with DLA (ahem, not Neto, who has 1 vote - ABR's.) Plus there were a few people who at least thought my initial case was good, even if they haven't joined the wagon yet.

Albert - your wagon has LESS people agreeing with it, there are MORE than just me and farside who are voting, let alone those who think shotty is scummy and you have no right to speak for whom 'we' sure as hell will or will not vote off. If you want people to agree with you and join your wagon, including myself, actually build a case. I've already made a start for you.

Also - it gets old hearing that the case you worked hard on and filled with quotes and genuine evidence is 'etheral' and that I'm a crazed player picking on a townie when you've done bugger all to find any evidence for your case andh ave less support form that town you supposedly speak for than I do. I like you and your playstyle, but an element of respect for trying hard in a difficult situation would be awesome too.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You're bragging because Ellibereth voted Shotty. I doubt Ellibereth has read the game. On the other hand, I've read this game front to back and I know that Neto's name comes up scummy.

Lining up lynches is only viable if you're about to die or as a tactic to gauge reactions. If not, it's just stupid and neither scum or town are more or less likely to do it.

[dramonic]

Mod Poll!
Considering the game began on the 19th of november, you guys have been given 5 weeks til the deadline.

Question: Do you want a closer deadline?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Clergyman, you're a good player, and you scare me sometimes, but you're unlucky to have replaced CSL. I think you're scummy on your own, but it won't be clear to anyone else until Day 2 or Day 3 when either the players you lynch flip town or the players I lynch flip scum, or both.

Question: Do you want a closer deadline?[/b][/color]

No. But thanks for asking us to answer publicly, sucks for scum. I want to see who the fuck has the balls to answer yes to this question.

[Ellibereth]

Ok...I read through all of Neto's posts:

#8: He agrees that meta is overrated, but still uses DLA's meta as an excuse for DLA's play.
#15: Says he will vote for DLA only if he doesn't put him in the danger zone. Later says it is to encourage DLA to post better. I don't see how that works.
#21: Says that Hewitt is the "easy target" scum found. I dunno, I think it would have been me, saber or DLA...
#27: Why are day 1 lynches worse than random? Why did you choose DLA and hewitt as the least useful people that you can get a read on others from? And did you ever do the hewitt reread?
#28: Hasn't voted for either CSL and DLA yet, after suggesting policy lynch.
#35: He sounds like voting Albert was some sort of inevitable result. Why so sure DLA is the best play of the day? You haven't even voted for him.
#36: Ooh! Ooh! Isn't the last sentence lining up lynches?
#38: Why doesn't what the original player did pass over? I disagree.
#41: It's what Saber's been doing the whole game, why only mention it now?
#46: Wants a polivy lynch here again.
#55: Continues to vote for people because they'll be dangerous or playing bad. Not because he thinks they are scum.

Unvote, Vote Neto

[Ellibereth]

Mod Poll!
Considering the game began on the 19th of november, you guys have been given 5 weeks til the deadline.

Question: Do you want a closer deadline?

No.

[Albert B. Rampage]

O_O

Well, cool.

So, clergyman, now both our wagons are at 2 votes. How do you like them apples?

[SerialClergyman]

So then get on shotty's lynch and if it's town we'll deal with it then. If he's scum, we'll rip through this game and be home in time for tea. If you think my case is disengenuous, point out why.

I'm not bragging because someone is joining my case, I'm saying that your rhetoric of saying that the town won't join a case that SC and farside is pushing is utterly hypocritical coming from someone sitting alone in your vote on a player you've made no effort to convince people is scum.

I get that you are a 'creating' rather than 'joining' wagons guy, and you're not usually content to voting along with someone elses scumreads, but you don't have to use rubbish characterisations like that to try to bring it down and bring yours up, use some genuine reason. It's a team game, mate, and although I love your balls, I think you forget it sometimes.

[Albert B. Rampage]

You asked me earlier what I preferred being called. I like Albert, it's more familiar to me.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I get that you are a 'creating' rather than 'joining' wagons guy, and you're not usually content to voting along with someone elses scumreads, but you don't have to use rubbish characterisations like that to try to bring it down and bring yours up, use some genuine reason. It's a team game, mate, and although I love your balls, I think you forget it sometimes.

I'm joining Ellibereth in his bandwagon on Neto

How do you like them apples? I love this expression